Does God So Love the World? (John MacArthur)

Love is the best known but least understood of all God's attributes. Almost everyone who believes in God these days sees Him as a God of love. I have even met agnostics who are quite certain that if God exists, He must be benevolent, compassionate, and loving.

All those things are infinitely true about God, of course, but not in the way most people think. Because of the influence of modern liberal theology, many suppose that God's love and goodness ultimately nullify His righteousness, justice, and holy wrath. They envision God as a benign heavenly grandfather-tolerant, affable, lenient, permissive, devoid of any real displeasure over sin, who without consideration of His holiness will benignly pass over sin and accept people as they are.

Liberal thinking about God's love also permeates much of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all-loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God anymore.

We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Psalm 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so amazing. Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love.

In that regard, our generation is surely at a greater disadvantage than any previous age. We have been force-fed the doctrines of self-esteem for so long that most people don't really view themselves as sinners worthy of divine wrath. On top of that, religious liberalism, humanism, evangelical compromise, and ignorance of the Scriptures have all worked against a right understanding of who God is. Ironically, in an age that conceives of God as wholly loving, altogether devoid of wrath, few people really understand what God's love is all about.

How we address the misconception of the present age is crucial. We must not respond to an overemphasis on divine love by denying that God is love. Our generation's imbalanced view of God cannot be corrected by an equal imbalance in the opposite direction, a very real danger in some circles. I'm deeply concerned about a growing trend I've noticed-particularly among people committed to the biblical truth of God's sovereignty and divine election. Some of them flatly deny that God in any sense loves those whom He has not chosen for salvation.

I am troubled by the tendency of some-often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine-who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.

The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.

Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world…") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2]

Pink was attempting to make the crucial point that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love. The gist of his argument is certainly valid: It is folly to think that God loves all alike, or that He is compelled by some rule of fairness to love everyone equally. Scripture teaches us that God loves because He chooses to love (Deuteronomy 7:6-7), because He is loving (God is love, 1 John 4:8), not because He is under some obligation to love everyone the same.

Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love.

Unfortunately, Pink took the corollary too far. The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.

We must understand that it is God's very nature to love. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.

At this point, however, an important distinction must be made: God loves believers with a particular love. God's love for the elect is an infinite, eternal, saving love. We know from Scripture that this great love was the very cause of our election (Ephesians 2:4). Such love clearly is not directed toward all of mankind indiscriminately, but is bestowed uniquely and individually on those whom God chose in eternity past.

But from that, it does not follow that God's attitude toward those He did not elect must be unmitigated hatred. Surely His pleading with the lost, His offers of mercy to the reprobate, and the call of the gospel to all who hear are all sincere expressions of the heart of a loving God. Remember, He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but tenderly calls sinners to turn from their evil ways and live.

Reformed theology has historically been the branch of evangelicalism most strongly committed to the sovereignty of God. At the same time, the mainstream of Reformed theologians have always affirmed the love of God for all sinners. John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." [3]

Calvin continues to explain the biblical balance that both the gospel invitation and "the world" that God loves are by no means limited to the elect alone. He also recognized that God's electing, saving love is uniquely bestowed on His chosen ones.

Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity.

We are seeing today, in some circles, an almost unprecedented interest in the doctrines of the Reformation and the Puritan eras. I'm very encouraged by that in most respects. A return to those historic truths is, I'm convinced, absolutely necessary if the church is to survive. Yet there is a danger when overzealous souls misuse a doctrine like divine sovereignty to deny God's sincere offer of mercy to all sinners.

We must maintain a carefully balanced perspective as we pursue our study of God's love. God's love cannot be isolated from His wrath and vice versa. Nor are His love and wrath in opposition to each other like some mystical yin-yang principle. Both attributes are constant, perfect, without ebb or flow. His wrath coexists with His love; therefore, the two never contradict. Such are the perfections of God that we can never begin to comprehend these things. Above all, we must not set them against one another, as if there were somehow a discrepancy in God.

Both God's wrath and His love work to the same ultimate end-His glory. God is glorified in the condemnation of the wicked; He is glorified in every expression of love for all people without exception; and He is glorified in the particular love He manifests in saving His people.

Expressions of wrath and expressions of love-all are necessary to display God's full glory. We must never ignore any aspect of His character, nor magnify one to the exclusion of another. When we commit those errors, we throw off the biblical balance, distort the true nature of God, and diminish His real glory.

Does God so love the world? Emphatically-yes! Proclaim that truth far and wide, and do so against the backdrop of God's perfect wrath that awaits everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.

Does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner of its expression? Yes it does. Praise Him for the many manifestations of His love, especially toward the non-elect, and rejoice in the particular manifestation of His saving love for you who believe. God has chosen to display in you the glory of His redeeming grace.

[3]John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, William Pringle, trans. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979 reprint), 123.

I understand about being busy. God had predestined the closet door, the hot water tank and the microwave all breaking right after vacation in my life. :O)

”And that is - to a large degree - my point. The Bible presupposes the reality of the (limited) free will of man.”

I would agree that man has some (limited) free will. (e.g. God gave Adam the right to name the animals.) But does man have the right to choose whether to go to heaven or not? Scripture also states:

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; … and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” John 5:40

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” John 6:37

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44

Along with believing and repenting the scriptures also teach that the Father must draw us and that we are unwilling to come on our own accord. There is no other way to interpret these verses. These verses can’t be ignored but must be harmonized.

I think our call to action is far more than an illusion but is a genuine responsibility and privilege for us to act as God’s ambassadors on earth similar to prayer (God knowing what we need before we pray). Please remember Ester. When faced with the dilemma of doing God will or not, Mordecai rightfully told her that should she keep silent help will arise from another and her father’s house would perish. (Ester 4:14) God’s will will not be stopped. We, as Christians, have the honor to participate in His will and if we "choose" not to He'll get someone else. But perhaps that was all the motivation Ester needed? eh???

”There is no doubt that predestination & election are Biblical doctrines. But the mystery is that humans can really and truly accept or reject Christ and that they will receive the ensuing consequences is also a Biblical doctrine. To me this is as much a mystery as how Jesus could be fully God and fully man at the same time.”

To me the mystery is why God chooses some for heaven and some to hell. Otherwise we would have to accept the premise that man will always make the perfect choice since the Book of Life has already been written. It is my personal belief, as incomprehensible as this may seem that those who are destined for hell want to be there and would be miserable in heaven. Consequently, everyone is going to end up exactly where they should be; God is the placement authority and it will be perfect. People are not going to go to hell because they made a poor choice in their lives or because they didn’t get to hear the gospel message since they were stuck on some forgotten island. That wouldn’t be very loving of God.

”He never healed those who didn't want it or those who asked him to leave.”

You overlook several stories in scripture. One is the healing of the man with the withered arm on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10) or the man blinded from birth (John 9:1). It could be argued that they wanted to be healed but there are no scriptural indications this was so. In fact, with the man with the withered arm it appears our Lord Jesus was trying to teach a valuable lesson to the Pharisees. In the case of the man blinded from birth our Lord Jesus stated the reason for the healing was so “the works of God might be displayed in him” (John 9:3).

”Have you ever taken a look at the purpose of election in the OT?”

The OT is a perfect case of election. There is no greater truth than God electing (choosing) the nation of Israel over all other nations. It's purpose can only be looked upon as the redemption of mankind.

I understand your point - and can agree with it to some degree. Help me think this though...Is that statement not an (unintentional) denial of the reality of our pre-conversion lost condition? If it is impossible for the elect to go to hell, then can it ever be said of them that they were truly lost?

I understand your point.

The total of God's wisdom is not within our human abilities to grasp. There is a divine paradox at the center of God's revealed will that we simply are not able to unravel.

So what do we do? We go to Scripture, being led by the Holy Ghost to all the truth God wishes to impart to us.

The Reformed start by acknowledging God's defining ordination of everything that occurs in His creation. All knowledge is given as a result of this central reality.

Yes, all men are fallen and convicted of Original Sin through Adam's fatal transgression against God. No man is capable of righteousness until God regenerates his dead heart. Like Lazarus, we are reborn by His hand alone.

And yes, God ordained the names of the elect from before the foundation of the world, based upon nothing worthy in themselves (because all men are equally fallen), based solely upon the good pleasure of His decree.

One hundred percent of the elect will one day be led to faith. And 100% of the reprobate will die without His blessing of salvation.

And all who receive Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be saved. No one is prevented from believing. No one is denied faith. All who believe are saved because that is the measure God gave us for recognizing salvation. By our fruits are we known.

These are the absolute truths of God. If God wanted something different, it would be different.

Our job is to understand what has been illuminated by the Holy Ghost, and to accept what still remains dimly lit.

All men deserve hell. That's just the way God ordered His creation. Adam fell. We sin. It is our nature to rebuke Him who created us.

From before time He chose some to redeem with the blood of His Son. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That's just the way it is.

"Just why God saves some and leaves others to perish is a mystery. It is not unjust, for God owes no man anything. Reprobation is an act of God's justice just as predestination is an act of His grace. In both God manifests His virtues."

"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask." -- AUGUSTINE

Most of us Calvinists were faithful Arminians for decades. We are presumptuous enough to believe we actually know what Arminians are thinking and feeling when they cry "robot!" in the face of God's sovereignty. We hear the echo of our own voices once protesting that very same thing.

But it is different now. The idea that the Holy Ghost is doing ALL the work of conversion spoke to our hearts. The idea that God knows exactly what He's doing and accomplishes everything He desires resounded in our minds. The promise that Christ will lose none of His sheep comforted all fears.

Everything, including the apparent paradoxes, are under the explicit and perfect directive of God, for His glory.

And life is now much clearer, sturdier and joyous because we know our faith is of Him who grants it, and not we who choose it.

"...the testimony of the Spirit is more excellent than all reason. For God alone is a fit witness to himself in His Word, so also the Word will not find acceptance in men's hearts before it is sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. The same Spirit, therefore, who has spoken through the mouths of the prophets must penetrate into our hearts to persuade us that they faithfully proclaim what has been divinely commanded… By this power we are drawn and inflamed, knowingly and willingly, to obey him, yet also more vitally and more effectively than by mere human willing or knowing." -- JOHN CALVIN

***But does man have the right to choose whether to go to heaven or not?...***

My friend, such a concept must not be totally outside of the realms of possibility. Look at the language of the following passage...

"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

***There is no other way to interpret these verses. These verses can’t be ignored but must be harmonized.***

I fully agree. There are verses in the Bible that are unavoidably, undeniably "Calvinistic". I think of... " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" or "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

The problem comes in when Armenians try to neuter Calvinist verses or Calvinists try to neuter Armenian verses. I believe that both opinions should be held simultaneously in the recognition that it is a mystery that is currently unsolvable.

***Please remember Ester. ***

An excellent example!!! God's will was established. He was going to rescue Israel - no matter what. Esther had a choice as to the role she would play - and she would either reap the rewards or suffer the consequences. If she chose to avoid her calling then God would find another way.

I heard a similar story from a Chinese evangelist. She said that if she had said "no" to God He would just find someone else. God's plan was not dependent on her "yes" or "no" - but her personal reward and blessing was.

***The OT is a perfect case of election. There is no greater truth than God electing (choosing) the nation of Israel over all other nations. It's purpose can only be looked upon as the redemption of mankind.***

Very true. But look at this...

"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?"

Israel was chosen - chosen to be singularly blessed by God should the keep His laws and statutes - with the intention that other nations would see the great blessing that they had and come and inquire after their God. The purpose of their elections was not their salvation to the EXCLUSION of others, but that through them others nations might be blessed and drawn into the light of Jehovah.

God had this purpose in mind when He chose Abraham ("and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed"). What is true of Abraham should also be true of his spiritual seed.

”My friend, such a concept must not be totally outside of the realms of possibility. Look at the language of the following passage...

The language of your passage in Deut 30:15 is God instruction to the nation of Israel. It is not to individual salvation. And, as Deut 30:1 starts out, God states that “…and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you…”. God knew the hearts of men is evil and they would turn aside from his path. Yet He still gave them their instructions NOT to turn aside.

”The problem comes in when Armenians try to neuter Calvinist verses or Calvinists try to neuter Armenian verses. I believe that both opinions should be held simultaneously in the recognition that it is a mystery that is currently unsolvable.”

Either God alone acts in man salvation or man makes a choice. Unfortunately there is no middle ground. The two views are opposites. It was never the original teaching of the western church and it was an instigator of the Reformation. And church history shows these two views to be the cause for much struggle in the church. At the risk of interjecting my anecdotic Calvinistic experience into the conversation, while I’ve believed for over 30 years that man could repent and turn aside I believe this to be in error.

One view is right; the other view is wrong. And scripture teaches only one view. Which view a person subscribes to affects their interpretation of scripture. If a person cannot choose which to believe, they’ll begin to find it impossible to understand fundamental truths such as the purpose of prayer (Is it to ask God for His divine intervention or to thank Him for His sovereign control?) or evangelism (Is it our responsibility to present a message so that people can come to know Christ or is it God’s responsibility and we are to be obedient?). The outcome of these beliefs affects our understanding and approach to God.

There are countless examples throughout both the Old and New Testament of God’s divine choice and those who find favor with the Lord for some unknown reason. God chose John the Baptist, Paul, David, Jeremiah, all before they were born according to scripture. There are those such as Moses and Abraham who were chosen before they repented. Others such as Balaam or Belshazzar were never given the chance to repent. And there are some such as Abimelech that God gave an opportunity to repent even though they were not believers. Moreover we know just from simple observation that some people throughout the ages have never heard the gospel or been given the chance for repentance. Generally when this is brought up the conversation leads to God saving people in multiple ways. Under this scenario faith does not come from hearing.

I don’t claim to have the answer to this riddle but it is a fact of scripture that God works specifically with people-all people in different ways. His redemption is simply based upon His good pleasure and He saves people as He so wills. The call to repent is a universal call but God never expects an answer for He knows man’s heart and the outcome.

”…. But look at this... Israel was chosen - chosen to be singularly blessed by God should the keep His laws and statutes …The purpose of their elections was not their salvation to the EXCLUSION of others, but that through them others nations might be blessed and drawn into the light of Jehovah.”

I would maintain that God knew Israel as a nation would fail Him. The problem with the old covenant was that man could not be obedient to God. God knew this and said as much clear back with Moses. Given a choice unregenerate man will always choose evil no matter what his intentions. I would maintain that the old covenant had to come first because man would never have understood that God must change man’s heart. We cannot will to follow God on our own because we are evil.

But God promised:

“…I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Eze 36:27

This, of course was fulfilled at Pentecost. The ONLY reason we are not like the nation of Israel in the OT is simply because of God’s Holy Spirit which indwells all believers. Any light of God that we so shine is simply because of Him. Not because of us. And we know right from wrong because of His Spirit-something our old covenant counterparts didn’t have. Christianity is sustained because God sustains us internally. All nations are indeed blessed and drawn to the light of Jehovah through our Lord Jesus. This was always God’s plan.

"I am simply saying that any man or woman ... who has been granted the gift of faith by God ... can accept God's offer of salvation ... all within the scope of God's predestined will."

Thanks for the clarification. The only part that I seem to be confused by is that if God gave man a "gift of faith" wouldn't that mean man would accept God's offering of salvation since he has faith?

Such would appear to be a reasonable inference, ... however ...

I note that Paul says, in Romans 12:3, that "God has granted to every man the measure of faith" ...

... and that James makes a clear distinction between a living faith and a dead faith.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Thus, ... the answer is not not so clearly established for me.

The faith talked about in Romans 12:3 is the faith God accords to believers:

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ.” Romans 12:3-5

Conversely, God does not give faith to everyone and Paul makes this contrast:

“and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith” 2 Thes 3:2

Your verses in James are consistent with Paul belief. James simply state that if there is no evidence of works in your life and your attitude is off base then you have to question your faith.

“My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into you assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes…have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?” James 2:1-4

“But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.” James 2:9

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” James 2:14

Paul states the same thing:

“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test? 2 Cor 13:5

To me it’s clear that unbelievers do not have faith in God. Believers, OTOH are to constantly examine themselves to see if they are in the faith and walking with God's Holy Spirit.

(I hope I'm not testing your patience in this discussion. I'm really benefiting from it greatly. Feel free to let it drop if you think it has run it's course.)

***It was never the original teaching of the western church and it was an instigator of the Reformation. And church history shows these two views to be the cause for much struggle in the church.***

By "it" do you refer to a synthesis of the two? Your point about the historic position of the (western) Church is important. Do you know what the general consensus of the early fathers was? I do not. It did appear from my Orthodox resources that free-will was accepted.

This is from St. John Chrysostom's commentary on the Gospel of John, Chapter 6, verse 27:

But perhaps some one will say, "If all that the Father giveth, and whomsoever He shall draw, cometh unto Thee, if none can come unto Thee except it be given him from above, then those to whom the Father giveth not are free from any blame or charges." These are mere words and pretenses. For we require our own deliberate choice also, because whether we will be taught is a matter of choice, and also whether we will believe. And in this place, by the" which the Father giveth Me," He declareth nothing else than that "the believing on Me is no ordinary thing, nor one that cometh of human reasonings, but needeth a revelation from above, and a well-ordered soul to receive that revelation." And the, "He that cometh to Me shall be saved," meaneth that he shall be greatly cared for. "For on account of these," He saith, "I came, and took upon Me the flesh, and entered into(5) the form of a servant."

Verses 44 and 45:

Ver. 44. "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him."

The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, "that nothing lies in our own power"; yet the expression showeth that we are masters of our will. "For if a man cometh to Him," saith some one, "what need is there of drawing?" But the words do not take away our free will, but show that we greatly need assistance. And He implieth not an unwilling(2) comer, but one enjoying much succor. Then He showeth also the manner in which He draweth; for that men may not, again, form any material idea of God, He addeth,

Ver. 46. "Not that any man hath seen God,(3) save He which is of God, He hath seen the Father."

"How then," saith some one, "doth the Father draw?" This the Prophet explained of old, when he proclaimed beforehand, and said,

Ver. 45. "They shall all be taught of God." (Isa. 54:13.)

Seest thou the dignity of faith, and that not of men nor by man, but by God Himself they shall(4) learn this? And to make this assertion credible, He referred them to their prophets. "If then 'all shall be taught of God,' how is it that some shah not believe?" Because the words are spoken of the greater number. Besides, the prophecy meaneth not absolutely all, but all that have the will. For the teacher sitteth ready to impart what he hath to all, and pouring forth his instruction unto all.

Also a very interesting article on this topic:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/exact_freewill.aspx
Concerning Free Will and Predestination
by St. John of Damascus

"...We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice."

*** One view is right; the other view is wrong. And scripture teaches only one view.***

Yes, but what I'm seeing is that the Scripture appears to teach both views. You are correct when you state "Which view a person subscribes to affects their interpretation of scripture." If we come to Scripture with our presuppositions but our presuppositions are suppose to be derived from Scripture then are we not in somewhat of a quandary?

***There are countless examples throughout both the Old and New Testament of God’s divine choice and those who find favor with the Lord for some unknown reason. God chose John the Baptist, Paul, David, Jeremiah, all before they were born according to scripture.***

In each of these cases the person was chosen in order to bring God's blessing to others - not simply fro their own personal enjoyment of salvation to the exclusion of others.

*** I would maintain that God knew Israel as a nation would fail Him.***

Yes, but did it HAVE to be that way? Was there another way (like Esther)? That, to my mind, is the mystery of Jesus' weeping over Jerusalem.

***Given a choice unregenerate man will always choose evil no matter what his intentions. ***

I can not fully agree with this. Look at the following verse...

"At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, "Cornelius." And he stared at him in terror and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God."

Cornelius was unregenerate.

Your thoughts?

Sorry I mod on a christian forum so I am not always around here

"No man comes to me, unless my Father draw him - No man can believe in Christ, unless God give him power: he draws us first, by good desires. Not by compulsion, not by laying the will under any necessity; but by the strong and sweet, yet still resistible, motions of his heavenly grace."
God is the ultimate gentleman (if you will bear with me in this figure of speech). He never "forces" Himself on anyone. In all the cases I know of, Jesus always asked a person if they wanted to be healed (with the exception of cases like Lazarus - in which case others asked for him). He never healed those who didn't want it or those who asked him to leave. It seems that he respected the privilege of man to accept or reject.

The basic problem is that you choose to use the word FORCE . Not one of us felt "FORCED". We ran with joy into the Fathers arms .

Jesus said one must be BORN AGAIN (regenerated ....Quickened...) to SEE the kingdom of God.

One can not desire what they can not see or hear. One can not desire Christ if one has a carnal heart and not the New Heart He has promised us.

Men will always choose according to their preferences. When God opens our eyes and ears and understanding to the gospel THAT becomes our preference and that is what we choose .

I just will say the sheep follow the master and come at His call because they know His voice , they know him and he knows them .

That being said, I am amazed at the pride of men and the way some think that to have God choosing them takes something away from their independence , as if that was their most precious possession.

I view being a tool selected and used by God as a great honor, not a curse. I pity men that think their salvation only has value if they procured it for themselves. .

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Because any brother believes that he came to Christ (as he was commanded) ... and believed on Christ (as he was commanded) ... and repented of his sin (as he was commanded), ...
... you conclude ...
... that he is reserving some bit of God's sovereignty for himself

My friend, we hold much in common , and I have come to respect you greatly over the time I have "known" you

I know this sound very insulting, but consider the merits of the argument. If one can frustrate the will or ordained plans of God who is god in that situation?

The argument to me is can men do what God has commanded without His intervention?

As an example, can you do as God commanded and keep the whole law and to love your neighbor as your self or to love God with all your heart?

Of course the answer is no, what then makes man think he can keep the command to repent and believe without Gods intervention?

Having come from a Arminian church I know I never really considered the implication of saying that I chose Christ until the full implications of that were pointed out to me.

Quester do you want for yourself what God does not have ? Even God does not have a free will. He can not violate His nature, and neither can man.

You know one more thought on this topic , man wants to choose God as his RIGHT but then refuses the same right to God to chose with whom He will spend eternity

God Quickens your heart and turns your affections to Himself, is that an awful thing, to be so loved by your creator?

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