MMMM! Now all we need is some chocolate and graham crackers and we can have s'mores!
Posted on 08/29/2005 5:53:18 AM PDT by NYer
Pope Benedict XVI met with the head of the ultraconservative movement founded by the excommunicated Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on Monday amid a renewed push to bring the "schismatic" group back into Rome's fold.
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the meeting between the pope and Monsignor Bernard Fellay, secretary general of the Society of St. Pius X, was held "in a climate of love for the church and a desire to arrive at perfect communion."
"While knowing the difficulties, the desire to proceed by degrees and in reasonable time was shown," Navarro-Valls said in a statement.
Lefebvre founded the Switzerland-based society in 1969, which opposed the liberalizing reforms of the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council, particularly its call for Mass to be celebrated in local languages and not the traditional Latin.
He was excommunicated in 1988 after consecrating four bishops without Rome's consent. All four bishops, including Fellay, were also excommunicated.
Benedict, who also opposed what he considered excesses of Vatican II, had worked to head off the excommunication order, negotiating with the society to try to keep its members in the fold.
Just months before the excommunication order came down, Benedict, who was then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, signed a protocol with Lefebvre that had indicated reconciliation of the society with Rome was imminent. Lefebvre later rejected the accord.
With Benedict now pope, some have speculated that there might be a new push to bring the society back under Rome's wing.
Fellay, for example, welcomed Benedict's April 19 election, saying there was a "gleam of hope" that the new pope might find a way out of the "profound crisis" in which the Catholic Church currently finds itself.
Fellay has said he would ask Benedict at the audience, which he requested, to rescind the excommunication order and also allow Catholics to celebrate Mass in Latin without having to ask permission first.
Monday's meeting took place at the pope's summer residence in Castel Gandolfo, south of Rome. Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who heads a commission that was created after the 1988 excommunication to try to negotiate with the society, also attended, the Vatican statement said.
In a recent interview with the international Web site of the Society of St. Pius X, Fellay said a return to the Latin Mass would mark the start of a "change of atmosphere and spirit in the church," which he believes has been spoiled by the Vatican II reforms.
However, in his 1997 book "Salt of the Earth," Ratzinger said a return to the Latin Mass wouldn't resolve the church's problems, even though he supported its expanded use.
"I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it," he said.
"But a simple return to the old way would not, as I have said, be a solution. Our culture has changed so radically in the last 30 years that a liturgy celebrated exclusively in Latin would bring with it an experience of foreignness that many could not cope with," he said.
Some have pointed to the fact that several top cardinals celebrated traditional Masses and prayer services with young people taking part in the recent World Youth Day in Germany as evidence of the Vatican's continued outreach to Latin traditionalists.
However, another of Lefebvre's bishops, Bishop Richard Williamson, has warned against any reunion with Rome. In an Internet newsletter earlier this month that announced Monday's meeting, Williamson warned that the "resistance" movement would carry on without the society if it were to rejoin Rome.
The Rev. Thomas Reese, former editor of the Jesuit weekly magazine America, said the Vatican had "bent over backwards" in the past to try to reach out to the society, and that Benedict was likely to continue the policy since he helped form it as a cardinal.
"The problem is that these concessions have not been enough for the schismatics," Reese said in an e-mail. "They want the rest of the church to follow them in rejecting Vatican II, which they consider illegitimate."
The society claims about 450 priests, 180 seminarians and has a presence in 26 countries.
___
On the Web:
International site of the Society of St. Pius X: http://www.fsspx.org
U.S. site of the Society of St. Pius X: http://www.sspx.org
Vatican site: http://www.vatican.va
This may be as close as you will get. It comes from Zenit News Agency, an international news agency whose mission is: "Our mission is to provide objective coverage of events, documents and issues emanating from or concerning the Catholic Church."
* * * * *
ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome
Code: ZE05082906
Date: 2005-08-29
Pope Meets Successor of Lefebvre in Search of Communion
In a "Climate of Love for the Church," Says Vatican Spokesman
CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, AUG. 29, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI received Bishop Bernard Fellay, who succeeded Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre as head of the Society of St. Pius X, with the "desire to arrive at perfect communion."
Today's meeting took place in the apostolic palace of Castel Gandolfo, in response to a request from Bishop Fellay, reported Vatican spokesman Joaquín Navarro Valls.
"The Pope was accompanied by Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, president of the Pontifical Commission 'Ecclesia Dei,'" the spokesman said.
"Ecclesia Dei," the Holy See's Web page explains, was "instituted by John Paul II with the 'Motu proprio' promulgated on July 2, 1988, following the schismatic gesture of illegitimate episcopal ordinations carried out by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in Ecône."
Navarro Valls said, "The meeting unfolded in a climate of love for the Church and the desire to arrive at perfect communion." His communiqué added: "Being aware of the difficulties, willingness was expressed to advance by degrees according to reasonable times."
Attached to Holy See
Later, Bishop Fellay revealed in a statement that "the meeting lasted some 35 minutes in a serene atmosphere."
"The audience was the occasion for the Society to manifest that it has always and always will be attached to the Holy See, Eternal Rome," said the bishop.
"We recalled the series of difficulties already known in a spirit of great love for the Church," he added.
"The Society of St. Pius X prays that the Holy Father will find the strength to put an end to the crisis of the Church, 'restoring all things in Christ,'" concluded the bishop's communiqué.
Previously, Bishop Fellay told his group's DICI press agency that, if he were to meet with Benedict XVI, he would request two things.
First is the possibility for all priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass without special permission from the local bishop, as is now required. Second is the "recanting [of] the decree of excommunication related to the consecrations" of four bishops in the Society.
As an aside: I'm furious about what is about to happen in Buffalo, but there seems nothing to be done to stop these bishops with their "five year plans" and cheery Maoist slogans.
With the destruction of the Sacred Heart statue in the Archdiocese of Boston I am convinced that Buffalo, Rochester, Boston and Albany are firmly in the hands of the minions of satan.
And now back to gratitude that my friend Jayne's grandmother is okay in the Garden District in N.O.
Also, time to invoke St. Patrick, St. Columba, and St. Hilda against the plague of snakes, alligators and other pests with which the people in Louisiana, Miss. and Alabama may have to cope.
Really? Then clue me in, I've found many of the Vatican pronouncements to be so vague that whenever they get interpreted one way, some official spokesperson states dismissively that they meant something quite different. Clarification seems to be a leisure sport in Rome these days.
"the virtue of faith is seated in the mind and not in the heart" Someone please explain this statement for me--in clarity of terms.
No explantion needed. Look to the author - Williamson - a former Anglican.
Since a legitimate question was asked and not a request for a smarmy answer, there is an explanation needed. Williamson got it from that awful "Anglican" St. Thomas Aquinas.
Whether the Object of Faith can be Something Seen
"I answer that: faith implies intellectual assent to that which is believed. But there are two ways in which the intellect gives its assent. In the first way, it is moved to give its assent by the object itself, which is either known in itself, as first principles are obviously known, since the intellect understands them, or known through something else that is known, as are conclusions which are known scientifically. In the second way, the intellect gives its assent not because it is convinced by the object itself, but by voluntarily preferring the one alternative to the other. If it chooses with hesitation, and with misgivings about the other alternative, there will be opinion. If it chooses with assurance, and without any such misgivings, there will be 225faith. Now those things are said to be seen which of themselves move our intellect or sense to know them. Hence it is clear that neither faith nor opinion can be of things that are seen, whether by sense or by the intellect."
I'm guessing but it seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that he was drawn to the SSPX as a result of their schism with the intent of fostering it.
Williamson was with the SSPX long before the Apostolic delegation came to Econe and scandalized the archbishop by denying the physical resurrection of Our Lord. (Just as the local Maronite priest told me last month.) It was actually this scandal that convinced the seminarians (Williamson being one of the first to be interveiwed by the delegation) that there was a profound crisis in the Church.
I'm not an authority on the SSPX but, if I understand correctly, Bishop Fellay is the one who pulls the shots.
"Calls the shots" is what you mean. The Holy Father may want to speed things up because Fellay's term runs out in 2006 and Williamson may end up being the Superior.
If that is so, then you need not worry any more about Williamson's statement. Take a look at how he concludes his letter about (then) Cardinal Ratzinger.We might wish to trust you, but we cannot.
One year later by the way, Three of the four bishops (Williamson included) were across the table from then Cardinal Ratzinger and a few others. The future Holy Father had a copy of "the Problem of the Liturgical reform" with him. Published by the SSPX.
No doubt if the Holy Father and Fellay are able to bridge the gap, then Williamson will set off on his own.
I think it's funny that everyone is fostering this idea that there is a fractionalization between Fellay and Williamson. Williamson released his letter I'm sure with the full knowledge and consent of Fellay. This provided a number of advantages:
1) the meeting that was low key was suddenly public.
2) the expectations of the SSPX were expressed as "low" so no Vatican diplomat was going to think of this visit as a capitulation to the modernism rampant in the Church.
3) It's an example of the acceptance of the authority of the Pope and the papal priveleges. If the SSPX denied it and were actually "schismatic" they wouldn't bother with the Pope as the "sedes" don't.
4) That leaves the Holy Father with the "necessity" to extend and olive branch and possibly grant the "pre-conditions" that bishop Fellay has asked for. He can deny it and nothing happens. He can grant it and it only works towards his benefit and then sets in motion a new dynamic of the oncoming vicious war between the traditionalist and the Papacy on one side and the modernists on the other.
It has been brilliant maneuvering on the part of the SSPX. I was just watching the rerun of the EWTN's World Over Live and Raymond Arroyo gave the meeting a big talk up and provided video of a solemn High Mass in all it's glory. (This is a slick way of getting past their local bishop who won't allow them to broadcast such a thing) Arroyo is supportive of the Old Mass and his interviews with Mel Gibson helped draw attention to the traditionalist movement.
It's an easy wager to believe that Williamson actually knows more about the Catholic faith than most prelates in the Vatican. He also lives it more than most Catholics in the World. It's also an easy bet that he knows the thinking of Cardinal Ratzinger (now B16) better than anyone on this thread. Being an Anglican convert Williamson is very comparable with John Henry Cardinal Newman. Both highly educated, I believe Williamson is a Cambridge man, well read, extremely good in Latin and extraordinarily capable of explaining the Catholic Faith in Thomistic terminology. It's also funny how no one denies that the SSPX priests are some of the most well formed priests since the hey day of the Jesuits and they forget that many of them were taught and formed by Williamson himself.
Dear TradicalRC,
What are you talking about?
sitetest
Someone please explain this statement for me--in clarity of terms.
I learned that faith and reason, mind and heart, will and intellect were complementary faculties of the soul.
Was this teaching--all those years--in error?
I'm inclined to agree with your observation Marcellinus, it is will and intellect, not merely intellect(that is ironically a liberal conceit! Cogito ergo sum and all that.)
Christ did not preach the virtues of syllogisms and logic, but of charity and faith. His words can be grasped by children and yet the intellect cannot fathom the depths of His wisdom. Even St. Thomas Aquinas felt in later years that his own writings were mere chaff.
In other words, 1 of every 1000 Catholic Priests is in the SSPX. If we included the number of ex-SSPX priests and the priests in daughter groups of the SSPX like the FSSP, SSPV, and among the independents, it would probably be 1 in 500.
Yep.
Which is why he was sent to Argentina, at the bottom end of South America. To prepare him for his stint as the next superior. Good call.
The SSPX mainstream recognize him for what he is. A loose cannon. Ironic really. We have the supposedly excitable French talking in calm and reasoned language while the supposedly urbane Englishman continues to churn out the inflammatory rhetoric. What was it you said again? "Good cop, bad cop"? That's a keeper. I never realized Fellay and Williamson were a double act.
If Williamson is really going to be the Superior, then I'd think that it's SSPX which may want to "speed things up." There's no telling where Williamson would take your group.
As I suspected, your threat to abandon FR was short lived. Not much traffic over at Angelqueen, is there?
Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Chapel (Holy Savior Parish) - 11:30 am Sun. - just outside Norristown on Fairfield Rd., one block north of Ridge Pike.
Our Lady of Consolation Parish - 2:00 pm Sun. - Tulip St. just of Princeton Ave. in the Tacony section of Philadelphia.
Mater Ecclesiae - 5:30 pm Sat., 9:00 am and 11:30 am Sun. - Cross Keys Rd. midway between the Atlantic City Expressway and Rt. 73. in Berlin, NJ
Please, tell us where Bishop Williamson was received into the Catholic Church from the Anglican schism. What parish did he become a member of?
Yep.
Which is why he was sent to Argentina, at the bottom end of South America.
You mean to run a seminary in one of the larger Catholic populations of the world?
To prepare him for his stint as the next superior. Good call.
It's amazing how one letter from Williamson forced the Vatican to acknowledge the meeting. And of course he was really out of the way when he and Bishop Fellay both toured the U.S. over the last year.
The SSPX mainstream recognize him for what he is. A loose cannon.
No. That's just the spin machine from the Neo Catholics who are going nuts at the thought of the SSPX getting respect from a Pope. And it's also funny how suddenly there is a "SSPX Mainstream" it's the liberal idea of sowing discord.
Ironic really. We have the supposedly excitable French talking in calm and reasoned language while the supposedly urbane Englishman continues to churn out the inflammatory rhetoric.
Again comes the liberal neo attempt to set up "factions" in the SSPX.
What was it you said again? "Good cop, bad cop"? That's a keeper. I never realized Fellay and Williamson were a double act.
You never realized? That's why I'm here. To clear the confusion. Fellay and Williamson were together less than a week ago in Fatima with the other two bishops. Some factions. They were both being publicly abused by the Fatima staff of kooks and nutcases. They know who the real enemies are. You can buy into the "factions" fiction if you want. I'm actually being a bit of a spoiler by letting it out.
If Williamson is really going to be the Superior, then I'd think that it's SSPX which may want to "speed things up." There's no telling where Williamson would take your group.
Williamson is brilliant, charitable and saintly. Hopefully the situation will be resolved and Williamson will be available papabile for the next conclave.
As I suspected, your threat to abandon FR was short lived. Not much traffic over at Angelqueen, is there?
I don't want to give up on you. It's a trait I share with St. Francis of Assisi. And there's plenty of traffic over there. Less confusion about Catholicism though.
"Peace on earth to men of good will"
Not "men of good intellect".
MMMM! Now all we need is some chocolate and graham crackers and we can have s'mores!
Please, tell us where Bishop Williamson was received into the Catholic Church from the Anglican schism.
So, was Williamson really schismatic because he was baptized in the Anglican Church? It's interesting how any other Orthodox and Anglicans were never referred to as such by our Neo Catholic brethren. What schism was Scott Hahn a part of?
What parish did he become a member of?
I don't know. I'll ask him when I meet him. But he entered the Seminary in Econe in October of 1972 long before any sanctions had been leveled. Come to think of it, we don't know WHO baptized the Apostles. Hmmm... is that an issue?
"Peace on earth to men of good will"
Not "Peace to men of good faith."
What's your point?
POPE: MEETING WITH LEFEBVRE SUCCESSOR CONCLUDED
(AGI) - Castelgandolfo, Italy, Aug 29 - Mons. Bernard Fellay, Father Superior of the Pius X Fraternity founded by bishop Marcel Lefebvre in contrast with the II Vatican Council, used side entrances to enter and leave from the summer residence of the Pope. The meeting with the new Pope was held in complete privacy and lasted a long time, so journalists had to be satisfied with seeing Vatican Spokesman Joaquin Navarro Valls, Pontifical House Prefect Mons. James Harvey and Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Chairman of the Dei Ecclesiastic Commission enter and leave the building. Mons. Fellay asked the permission to use an entrance that was not guarded b the press, so as not to prejudice the difficult mediation with the Holy See with off the cuff declarations, but also to avoid increasing tension within the Fraternity, the more conservative party of which opposes any agreement. (AGI) -
"The longer the SSPX stays away the longer they become something other than Roman Catholic and the more difficult it becomes for the Roman Catholic Church to come back to her roots and her senses in every diocese and parish. We have need of each other."
I would be in agreement with the above thought had it been written:
The longer the SSPX stays away the longer they become the only remnant of the Roman Rite Catholic Church, and the less likely the post-councilor church will move away from the presence of and worship of false gods pagan idols on consecrated and sacred ground in every diocese and parish. The new church must embrace the presence of the SSPX to sustain its credibility as the One Holy and Apostolic Church.
Is this stuff is your idea of being Holy, Catholic, or Apostolic?
"Arab terrorists... are in turn mere instruments of God who uses them for the salvation of souls."
Richard Williamson, October 2001
"In the Catholic Middle Ages the Jews were relatively impotent to harm Christendom, but as Catholics have grown over the centuries since then weaker and weaker in the faith, especially since Vatican II, so the Jews have come closer and closer to fulfilling their substitute-Messianic drive towards world dominion."
Williamson, October 2001
"[T]here was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies. The Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new State of Israel...."
Williamson, 1989
"[T]he Jews are the most active artisans for the coming of antichrist."
Tissier de Mallaraise, May 1997
"Just as the chief priests and ancients hated Jesus unto death... so we may blame Jews and Freemasons and others like them for engineering the destruction of the Church...."
Williamson, May 2000
"Your Eminence [addressing Cardinal Ratzinger], if ideas did not matter, you might be a good Catholic, but since the virtue of faith is seated in the mind and not in the heart, then so long as your mind swings between Tradition and modernity you are, despite yourself, in your position as Guardian of the Faith, a terrible enemy of the Catholic Church. We might wish to trust you, but we cannot."
Williamson, 1999
As if we haven't got enough nutcases and whackjobs already!
The other one, which is the one I am more familiar with, is in Plymouth (just outside Norristown) at Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. It's very easily accessible from the Turnpike, the Blue Route, and the Schuylkill.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.