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The Vanity of Their Minds: Sola Scriptura
www.archangelsbooks.com ^ | Fr. John Whiteford

Posted on 10/04/2005 7:51:36 PM PDT by JohnRoss

Sola Scriptura In the Vanity of Their Minds by Fr. John Whiteford

AN ORTHODOX EXAMINATION OF THE PROTESTANT TEACHING Introduction: Are Protestants Beyond Hope?

Since my conversion from Evangelical Protestantism to the Orthodox Faith, I have noted a general amazement among many of those who have been raised Orthodox that a Protestant could be converted. This is not because they are uncertain about their own faith, usually they are just amazed that anything could break through a Protestants stubborn insistence on being wrong! What I have come to understand is that most Orthodox people have a confused and limited grasp of what Protestantism is, and where its adherents are coming from. Thus when "cradle Orthodox" believers have their run-ins with Protestants, even though they often use the same words, they do not generally communicate because they do not speak the same theological language — in other words, they have no common theological basis to discuss their differences. Of course when one considers the some twenty thousand plus differing Protestant groups that now exist (with only the one constant trait of each group claiming that it rightly understands the Bible), one must certainly sympathize with those that are a bit confused by them.

(Excerpt) Read more at archangelsbooks.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; orthodoxy; protestant
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To: Lord_Calvinus
"We upheld the infallibility of no man. '

Except yourself.
121 posted on 10/05/2005 11:03:31 AM PDT by ByGraceThroughFaith (John 17:20-23)
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To: Lord_Calvinus; ByGraceThroughFaith; magisterium; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Quester; ...
Amen, L-C. Looks like you did read the article.

An excellent article is found here by Dr. Greg Bahnsen:

THE INERRANCY OF THE AUTOGRAPHA

122 posted on 10/05/2005 11:04:17 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray)
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To: Quester

Only one grave sin of David is recorded in the Bible, and this sin was expiated through the death of his son and a major dose of sackcloth and ashes. Moses shows no accumulation of sins after his wavering on the power of God. He repented of this, did not subsequently justify it, and paid for it with his inability to enter the Promised Land. I do not even mention Solomon a) because he does not fit the mold of initiation I'm talking about and b) because his devolving into sin is manifest. Even then, he seems regretful of many things upon retrospection toward the end of his life.


123 posted on 10/05/2005 11:04:39 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: ByGraceThroughFaith
The simple answer to your question, "why are there hundreds of disagreeing sects based upon the bible?", is that humans are fallible in their interpretation of Scripture because of the limits to their intelligence and knowledge, plus the effects of original sin.

The same question may be asked of those who look to the Magisterium for guidance. (I am excluding the left wing of Roman Catholicism, which is essentially secular humanism with a religious veneer.) Were the Magisterium clear, why do conservatives and liberals struggle within the mainstream of the Catholic Church? Why do traditionalists disdain mainstream Catholic conservatives such as EWTN and Opus Dei? Looking at the traditionalists, it appears they are themselves divided into camps such as the Lefevrists, the Feeneyites, and several others and are at odds. Yet it is the traditionalists who take the statements of past Popes and church councils most seriously.

Were the Magisterium clearer than the Bible, there would be seamless unity within Roman Catholicism. No such seamless unity currently exists, though it may have in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Furthermore, if Tradition meant the same thing to Roman Catholics as it does to the Eastern Orthodox, there would have been no schism over 900 years ago.

124 posted on 10/05/2005 11:05:06 AM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: HarleyD

But of course. 8~)


125 posted on 10/05/2005 11:05:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray)
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To: ByGraceThroughFaith

***Getting back to sola scriptura, and the question still stands. If scripture alone as a sole rule of faith is sufficient to establish the truth of Christianity, why are there hundreds of disagreeing sects based upon the bible?***

You have not been describing Sola Scriptura.
You have been describing Solo Scriptura, as has this article.

The reason that there are "hundreds of disagreeing sects" is that, under the doctrine of Solo Scriptura, you get to ignore what the Holy Spirit spoke to the churches in times past and simply make up your own new doctrines. Or worse, decide that old heresies were better than orthodoxy, repackage them under redefinitions of terms so that they appear to be orthodox, and give them to people who don't trust themselves to be able to properly understand the Bible which violates the propositions of Sola Scriptura.

But, that is NOT Sola Scriptura.


126 posted on 10/05/2005 11:09:34 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: HarleyD

***Perhaps I'll start the Church of the HarleyD's.***

Well, with the noise from the Screaming Eagle brand baffles in the hogs, we won't be hearing any heresies spoken in the church.


127 posted on 10/05/2005 11:12:24 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***LOL. Save me a pew. 8~)***

Like you'll be sitting in a pew in THAT church.


128 posted on 10/05/2005 11:13:21 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Sam the Sham
The former Protestant who wrote this article never grasped the significance of Protestantism. He probably should not write articles criticizing that which he never embraced or understood. Protestantism has always protested the traditions of men that are derived outside of a Biblical framework. It is to risky. History shows the dangers of the church engaging in unbiblical traditions. Christ warned us many times on this exact topic. We must take heed to something the New Testament says over and over again. To ignore it is perilous.

Luther was appalled by the unbiblical traditions that had become the focus of the church. Jesus was just as appalled by the religious leaders of His day basing traditions on something other than the Word of God.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

129 posted on 10/05/2005 11:15:27 AM PDT by bondserv (God governs our universe and has seen fit to offer us a pardon. †)
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To: ByGraceThroughFaith

***Except yourself.***

Oh, I see. You have the wrong definition of Sola Scriptura and you don't like the correction. This, BTW, is another distinction of Solo Scriptura.

For your information, I have consulted more than one Reformer on the proper definitions and applications of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura before writing on this thread (even citing from one of them), which every good Sola Scripturist will do before heading down the donney brook lane of Solo Scriptura.

How many people have you consulted about the proper definition of Sola Scriptura before posting?

Am I your enemy because I told you the truth?


130 posted on 10/05/2005 11:18:00 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***Amen, L-C. Looks like you did read the article.***

I got far enough down to properly understand how he defined his term. I quit reading when it came to the obligatory part of the play where they set the scarecrow on fire and danced around the funeral pyre.

Been there, done that. And, according the the Arminians, no one can burn things as well as we Calvinists so I wasn't very impressed.


131 posted on 10/05/2005 11:26:16 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Wallace T.

I suspect that the short answer to your question would point one quickly not so much to the obscurity of the magisterium, but to the hardness of heart that we all are prone to. You and I seem to be in substantive agreement about "Catholic" leftists, but my argument applies equally to those on the right-edge, too.

I myself am a traditionalist Catholic, preferring, as a matter of clear presentation of the theology of the Mass, the so-called Tridentine usage. My general theological outlook tends to gravitate toward the older presentations of argument, as I believe they are clearer. However, inasmuch as I have no doctrinal problem with the "New Mass" of Paul VI, when it is celebrated according to the rubrics in the missal, I am *not* in substantive disagreement with orthodox Catholics of the Novus Ordo persuasion. In other words, within the umbrella of Catholic orthodoxy, there is certainly some latitude to expression. This is a similar situation to what I alluded to in my original posts about the different rites within the Church.

But, being, as I said, a traditionalist, I feel qualified to address some of the other issues from the "right-side" of the Catholic spectrum that go too far.

You lump into the Catholic mix the Lefebvrists, the Feeneyites, etc. erroneously. They are in schism. They are therefore not in union with the pope. They are therefore not Catholic. They are therefore not part of the spectrum of belief held acceptable under the umbrella of Catholic legitimacy.

These people of whom we have spoken, from the left and the right, have removed themselves from the Church. The leftists among them are classically Protestant in their disavowal of legitimate Church authority, which the rightists, in selectively rejecting the same authority, are little more than "Protestants in fiddleback vestments." I feel no responsibility to own-up to either extreme.

Meanwhile, the Church goes on proclaiming those things which it has always proclaimed. High degrees of boldness in that proclamation may sometimes be lacking these days, but denial of any doctrine, once proclaimed, has never occured. Those people who hold to that doctrine, and only those people, are Catholic. St. James, in James 2:10, is sufficient authority to substantiate that claim.


132 posted on 10/05/2005 11:43:54 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: Lord_Calvinus; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911
And, according the the Arminians, no one can burn things as well as we Calvinists so I wasn't very impressed.

Well, to set the record straight, we never said you did it well.

Just lots. ;-)

133 posted on 10/05/2005 11:44:58 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (You are stuck on stupid, I’m not going to answer that question ~ General Honore)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
"Am I your enemy because I told you the truth?"

You're not my enemy, but my response to the rhetorical device still stands.

There is no single doctrine of sola scriptura, and I think this thread makes that evident.

"For your information, I have consulted more than one Reformer on the proper definitions and applications of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura before writing on this thread (even citing from one of them), which every good Sola Scripturist will do before heading down the donney brook lane of Solo Scriptura."

Can you provide the references?
134 posted on 10/05/2005 11:50:24 AM PDT by ByGraceThroughFaith (John 17:20-23)
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To: Wallace T.; Lord_Calvinus
What you have written is very interesting, but the conversation keeps turning to the Catholic Church. Can there be no discussion of the problems of sola scriptura without turning toward the Catholic Church?

Since it's on the table, let's discuss it. It's not clear to me that the Catholic model and the Protestant model are as different as we traditionally have thought. I myself don't believe that any religion is actually based on the Bible alone. If I'm right, then the chief difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is that Catholics unapologetically recognize a dependence upon traditions, and make the claim that their core traditions extend back to the Apostles. In fact, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Calvinists all make the same claim to a certain extent.

Where I disagree with much of what I've read on this forum is that I don't think Christianity needs to be divided.
135 posted on 10/05/2005 12:08:03 PM PDT by ByGraceThroughFaith (John 17:20-23)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
We true Reformers rejected the Catholic jaunt into the false doctrine that the Church produced the Bible.

Really ? Who was it who decided that "The Secret Teachings of John", "The Gospel of Thomas", "The Apocalypse of Peter", "Dialogue of the Savior", "The Acts of John", "The Acts of Thomas", "The Infancy Gospel of Jesus", etc were not canonical ? You know how many so called gospels and apocalypses were floating around in the second century AD ?

136 posted on 10/05/2005 12:25:19 PM PDT by Sam the Sham (A conservative party tough on illegal immigration could carry California in 2008)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Burn one (not "lots") insurrectionist heretic and you get type cast for life.


137 posted on 10/05/2005 12:27:51 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Corin Stormhands

LOL!


138 posted on 10/05/2005 12:27:57 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: All

why? Why? WHY?

When an Orthodox poster posts an Orthodox article about a difference between Orthodox views on Sola Scriptura as compared to Protestan views does everyone hijack the discussion to the old Catholic vs. Protestant debate????

Please, folks, the authority of the Pope has nothing to do with the point of the article.

Most of you haven't read te article.

It already deals with many of your objections.

Read it.

Then post.

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled food fight.)


139 posted on 10/05/2005 12:30:45 PM PDT by newberger
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To: ByGraceThroughFaith

***There is no single doctrine of sola scriptura, and I think this thread makes that evident.***

Ah, but there is only one single definition of Sola Scriptura. I can't help it if you simply want to ignore that, make up your own definitions and move on from there. That was the same spirit in the Arminian (Remonstrants) who just changed whatever they wanted per the doctrine of Solo Scriptura.


140 posted on 10/05/2005 12:31:09 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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