POPE HIT THE MARK: AT ROOT OF CATHOLIC PROBLEMS IS LACK OF BIBLICAL SPIRITUALITY

No attempt at whitewashing anything was attempted on my part. I was answering your question accusation that the Catholic Church executed some of its own members for reading the Bible. I rebutted the assertion. I'm sure I would love to go through a whole laundry list of excesses by both Protestants and Catholics *every time* statements like yours crop up on FR, but it would appear to serve little purpose. I and many others have done so on a regular basis, but the attempts at balance go unnoticed, evidently.

Both Protestants and Catholics did things in the Name of God in former times that we find repellant today. I have no trouble admitting it. There are certainly Protestants here on FR who lament certain excesses done by their religious forebears, too. But don't be too quick to climb on their horse as they cry "mea culpa." You made no admissions on anything in this thread, till the post I'm responding to here. All you seemed to be interested in was to accuse Catholics of being so opposed to Scripture that they KILLED THEIR OWN for reading it. I see nothing in that, or your follow-ups prior to the present post, that balances the ledger with an admission of excesses on your side.

All of Christianity has fratricidal (in the widest sense) blood on its hands from those long-ago days. Please, God, may we never see such days again. Dredging-up dirt (often erroneous or half-truth) from the get-go in posts directed against fellow-Christians is not only highly unconstructive, it tends to inflame the minds of targeted readers in ways that too closely resemble the violence of those days. We have more than enough clear doctrinal differences to fuel pointed - but healthy - discussion between us for a VERY long time. Getting into contests about whose side spilled the most blood 350-500 years ago is a silly waste of time. I apologize for my participation in it, even if on a defensive, rather than offensive, level.

Those who leave the Church must sit down and exam their conscience to see their REAL reasons for leaving. From my personal experience, most don't leave because they disagree with the Church's teachings, but have personal issues.

My experience is exactly the opposite. I've known huge numbers of ex-Catholic evangelicals, and they are all like me. Admittedly, many of them came out of Latin-American "folk Catholicism" which is at times barely distinguishable from witchcraft. But I've also met plenty of ex-Catholic "Anglos" (the local term for any English-speaking white). What we have in common is that we discovered the power of God through the Bible -- which is why I thought this thread was so interesting to begin with. "Biblical spirituality" the only kind we know about, so if the Pope starts pushing it, that's the greatest news since 1517... perhaps 1054...

By contrast, the ex-Catholics who left because of "personal" (usually sexual) issues - and I've met plenty of those, too -- don't attend any church at all. They are not "Protestants", they are functional atheists. But perhaps it's different in other parts of the country, where church attendance is more socially accepted/expected/required?

Only that person can know, upon further analysis, whether there were other options open rather than leaving.

I followed the only light I saw. For me, it was that simple, and that honest.

One can take people aside, whether they are priests, nuns, or lay members, and express their concerns. If that doesn't work, we take several people with similar views to the person. And then, we can go to the bishop.

Alas, I live in Cardinal Mahoney's jurisdiction....

The Body of Christ is both human and divine - so it is inevitable that we will meet some people who do not embody Christian virtue!

Sadly, this is true in Protestantism as well.

It is easy to belong to a Church where everyone is outwardly "nice"

I wouldn't know :-)

As to the "Mary/saints/statue" business, one does not have to reconcile every belief completely before entering the Church.

Now this is quite significant. I thought exactly the opposite: that one must affirm that the Catholic Church is true and correct in all it teaches, in order to be received into it. Are you saying this isn't the case?

My experience is exactly the opposite. I've known huge numbers of ex-Catholic evangelicals, and they are all like me.

The point I was making is that people leave the Church not because of doctrinal disagreements, but because of "personal issues" - which would include a lack of being fed at a particular parish. There are, indeed, many parishes filled with the Spirit, having Bible studies, retreats, etc.. It is up to the laity to bring such ministries to the table. The priest will not have the time to do all of this. The parish priest is spending half his time just with the upkeep and administration functions. Thus, it is up to us to shine our lights to the world. The days are long past where the laity just sits back in the pews.

I followed the only light I saw. For me, it was that simple, and that honest.

Fair enough. I just fell away for 20 years. God has a plan for all of us. In retrospect, I often wonder what would have happened if I hadn't fallen away. But would I have been as strong of a Catholic as I am now? We trust in God's Providence.

Alas, I live in Cardinal Mahoney's jurisdiction

There are conservative parishes, even in LA. One can even considering going to an Eastern Rites Catholic Church, which recognizes the Bishop of Rome as the earthly leader of the Church.

I wrote : As to the "Mary/saints/statue" business, one does not have to reconcile every belief completely before entering the Church.

You responded : Now this is quite significant. I thought exactly the opposite: that one must affirm that the Catholic Church is true and correct in all it teaches, in order to be received into it. Are you saying this isn't the case?

Ah...Well, let me try to explain this, as I think I didn't do a very good job the first time...

I am an RCIA (Rites of Christian Initiation of Adults) instructor. When people begin to consider the Catholic faith, they are not REQUIRED to buy what the Church teaches. It begins as a period of inquiry. The candidates/catechumens (the former are baptized Christians, the latter were never baptized) ask questions and learn about the Catholic point of view on Christian questions. With an open mind and accepting heart, they use their intellect and their heart to determine if God is calling them to Catholicism. Along the process (which varies from parish to parish, but ours lasts about 8 months), the person CAN decide it isn't for him/her. Some people drop out, for their own reasons. God bless them. But those that DO - they have made a crucial decision. They have decided that the Church REALLY IS the continuation of Christ's incarnation - the visible presence of Christ on the earth today. The come to believe that the Church REALLY HAS the teaching authority given to them by God. This is vital - as without it, how can we submit our will to teachings that our intellect is not sure on? Only when we truly believe that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ for all time to teach the faith as given by the Apostles and guided by God - only then can a non-conformist like myself bow down to the Church's decision regarding Mary, the saints, and so forth. I submit my will as if to God - since it is God's will that He teach through the Church.

In the Ritual for the Reception of Baptized Christians into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church, the candidate recites the Nicene Creed. The candidate then proclaims, one at a time, “I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God”. Thus, one must hold to what the Church teaches, when it comes time to be accepted into the Church. However, it is NOT unusual for people to say "I am NOT ready yet, I still have questions", and put off their entrance into the Church. So in a sense, you are correct - at the time of entrance, you must accept the teachings of the Catholic church. But not when you first are coming to the faith while inquiring.

We believe, infallibly, that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Even when it teaches items of the faith that are not infallible defined, we are held bound to believe them as part of our obedience to Christ’s visible representative. We are not required to fully understand the reasons behind the teaching – God may allow “doubt” to occur within us specifically as a test of our faith. But we are certainly not allowed to pick and choose which items of the faith to discard or believe in.

Faith is not based on our selection of what is true or not true. It is based on the Divine Authority of Christ to preach and teach the Gospel of Truth – through an organization that would be guided by Truth Himself. If we believe and understand this concept, it is not necessary to come to full understanding before becoming Catholic. If we believe the above concept, doesn’t it follow that the Church is teaching what God wants us to know for this particular time in history?

So when I said a person could be at least neutral or open to the Church's teaching on Mary and so forth, this was meant to be taken as part of the process of entering the Church. If we come to believe that the Church is divinely instituted and guided, the rest will follow, correct?

I am sorry if I caused you confusion, and I appreciate that you caught this and brought it up to me. I wouldn't want to give you false impressions about the Church

Brother in Christ

...people leave the Church not because of doctrinal disagreements, but because of "personal issues" - which would include a lack of being fed at a particular parish. There are, indeed, many parishes filled with the Spirit, having Bible studies, retreats, etc.. It is up to the laity to bring such ministries to the table....

In order for the laity to do so, they must first be educated well enough to know their need for such things. For example, only someone who already knows the value of the Bible, would even think about initiating a Bible study group. It's possible to be so ignorant that you don't even know what you don't know.

If I returned to Catholicism, I would NOW have that knowledge as a result of 20+ years in Evangelicalism, and would probably be as active a layman in the Catholic church as I have been in the Evangelical world. But I wouldn't have ever got that idea from the Catholicism that I knew (which, admittedly, was neither optimal nor complete.)

One can even considering going to an Eastern Rites Catholic Church, which recognizes the Bishop of Rome as the earthly leader of the Church.

There's a couple of them in the area. One is actually just about around the corner from my job. I hear they use the beautiful Orthodox liturgy and rituals. That would be cool.

In the Ritual for the Reception of Baptized Christians into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church, the candidate recites the Nicene Creed

With or without the filoque? :-) Just messin' with ya...

In order for the laity to do so, they must first be educated well enough to know their need for such things.

I think both the laity and the Church have faults to share in this. First, the laity is not prevented from reading Scripture, praying, reading the Catechism, or any other such things. One must take initiative - it is like anything in life. You get out of it what you put in to it. Many Catholics of the past had the idea that they didn't have to do anything but their "duty" to appear at Mass. The Latin Mass didn't help foster the idea of participation...

This stems in part from the development of how grace and nature works. It is a long story, but grace, until the mid 20th century, was seen as something added on to our nature - and generally more to only the religious. This caused several problems that are just now being expunged. First, Jansenism - a ritualistic adherence to rules of law - a heresy - has had a lingering effect up to Vatican 2. We have both probably experienced it from our days of Catholic school. There was also the prevalent idea that the laity had a secondary role in divine worship, teaching the faith, and actually practicing evangelization. This was felt a job of the religious - who generally were thought of as the prospective saints. This touches on hundreds of years of attitudes and reflections on the relationship of nature and grace - as well as a reaction to the Protestant Reformation (esp. private Bible reading).

Thus, it is difficult to point the finger entirely at anything. However, our faith tells us that God guides even the little everyday things in our lives. Thus, we know that such an all-encompassing thing that has happened in our Church for the last several hundred years is ALSO under Divine Providence. God brings good out of even the greatest of evils. I think the Church is coming out stronger since Vatican 2, returning to its roots on many critical issues, namely, the call to the laity to participate in such things as teaching the faith and conducting small faith communities that go out and perform works of mercy. The idea that religion is only for the religious, that God is to be separated from the secular world, is falling away. God is to be part of OUR ENTIRE LIVES! Not just the one hour Sunday Mass. And until local parishes start preaching that, it is not surprising that people will continue to be dead to the message of Christ. I see the Church slowly turning a corner. Things are not the same that they were 20 years ago, that's for sure...

I have found that by becoming active in a ministry, my life with Christ has moved forward in leaps and bounds. I imagine you, too, have experienced this. It takes movement from the person, but he must be motivated to take that step. I believe that the Church's writings of the last 40 years has been calling the laity to action. It has taken awhile to filter down to the grass-roots, but it is moving forward.

I would highly suggest you go to at least an Eastern Rites Catholic Church. The liturgy is beautiful - when one understands what is going on - the reasons for this or that movement, it really moves the heart and brings to mind that the Mass is the joining of heaven and earth as Christ continuously offers His one-time Sacrifice to the Father, interceding for us. We, as part of the Body, join in that offering, giving of our own sacrifices and joining them to Christ's to the Father. For a time, we "enter the throne-room of heaven". It is amazing when one actually realizes what is happening.

Christ said that the truth will set you free. I pray that you continue to seek the Truth. I understand your reasons for leaving - I did to for awhile. But when one searches for the Truth of Christ, I believe it leads eventually to the only Church that has existed since the time of Christ. I pray that you realize Christ to His fullest as you continue your walk in Him.

Brother in Christ

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