Posted on 10/10/2005 9:10:59 AM PDT by Teófilo
Hi folks: I want to share with you the Nicene-Constatinopolitan Creed in Greek and Latin, so that you get a "feel" for what is said in these two ancient languages of the Church.
There's something when you recite them, in their cadence, that really captures the primitive wonder felt by those who said it for the first time.
Sure, the Creed may look sligthly misterious read this way, but I assure you, there's no Mystery beyond that of God. If you know Latin or Greek, it would be as intelligible to you as if you were reading it in English, which you may choose to do, by going here.
First, the Creed in Greek (minus the Filioque clause), which we may even call "the original" Creed:
Now, in Latin with the Filioque clause:
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.- Thank you This is Life! for the idea and for the Greek text of the Creed!Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.
Simple question:
Considering that the Council of Nicea was convened by the Emperor, and that the decisions of the council were given the full weight of Roman law, wouldn't the official version be in Latin (without the filioque) rather than Greek? I'm sure the discussions were conducted in Greek, but the final document would have to have been put in Latin to be added to the code of Roman law.
The official proceedings and records of the Roman Empire were in Latin until 565, when Justinian II (son of the Great) changed it to Greek.
"...qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur...." BAD! :)
The proceedings of the Council were kept in Greek, but the Creed at that time was in fact translated into Latin, without the filioque and ultimately the Creed in both languages was posted in bronze on doors in the Vatican where it can be seen to this day. It does sound sublime in both languages though, doesn't it!
I asked this before but I didn't get an answer...
What is the difference in pronunciation between an "Omega" and an "Omicron"?
You are absolutely right. I apologize!
The "o" sound in "W" is a more "rounded" "o" sound than that in "O"
Its rather like the difference in the "o" sounds in "Oleo" and "Out", respectively.
Thanks...I've had two different text books tell me two different things about the proper pronunciation.
Do you know where I could actually listen to an audio of Koine Greek being spoken/sung? Unfortunately, and I hate this, the Papal Masses always have a translator speaking over the the beautiful chanting of the Gospel in Latin and Greek.
There's quite an audio library on the site of the GOA, www.goarch.org.
Omicron is a short O and Omega is a long O.
The official proceedings and records of the Roman Empire were in Latin until 565, when Justinian II (son of the Great) changed it to Greek.
A "Simple Question?" Friend, you can write a thesis out of that...(LOL).
I have no idea how to answer that, not versed as I am on notarial practices in 4th century Rome. [sarcasm-not-aimed-at-you]Ask Dan Brown. He seems to be an "expert" in the period.[/sarcasm-not-aimed-at-you]
Seriously, an excellent question well beyond my ken.
-Theo
Given that the educated and scholarly class of imperial Rome were perfectly fluent in both languages, I find it highly unlikely that any serious theological difference could be discerned from the original Latin and Greek versions. My interest is that the Nicene Creed may be the first major document of the Church to be originally published in Latin.
The degree to which Latin and Greek were interchangeable in Rome is demonstrated by the fact that St Paul's letter to the church in Rome, which then consisted mostly of the poorer classes, was written in Greek rather than Latin.
[quote]Considering that the Council of Nicea was convened by the Emperor, and that the decisions of the council were given the full weight of Roman law, wouldn't the official version be in Latin (without the filioque) rather than Greek? [quote]
Hi bobjam,
The original creed was written in Greek, the language of the eastern Roman Empire where both councils were seated; which is also why the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Most laws and diplomacy in the Empire were written in both Greek and Latin long before Justinian II.
[quote]The official proceedings and records of the Roman Empire were in Latin until 565, when Justinian II (son of the Great) changed it to Greek.[quote]
The first seven Ecumenical Councils were all conducted in Greek. The First Council of Nicaea, which took place in 323AD, had out of the hundred participating bishops only five who were Latin Bishops. The majority were Eastern Bishops.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.v.i.html
Both the Western Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches recognize the first seven councils in the early years of the church, but Catholics also recognize fourteen councils called in later years by the Pope of the West, while the Eastern Orthodox churches, who do not recognize the authority of the Pope, do not recognize these later seven councils.
[quote]Considering that the Council of Nicea was convened by the Emperor, and that the decisions of the council were given the full weight of Roman law, wouldn't the official version be in Latin (without the filioque) rather than Greek? [quote]
Hi bobjam,
The original creed was written in Greek, the language of the eastern Roman Empire where both councils were seated; which is also why the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Most laws and diplomacy in the Empire were written in both Greek and Latin long before Justinian II.
[quote]The official proceedings and records of the Roman Empire were in Latin until 565, when Justinian II (son of the Great) changed it to Greek.[quote]
The first seven Ecumenical Councils were all conducted in Greek. The First Council of Nicaea, which took place in 323AD, had out of the hundred participating bishops only five who were Latin Bishops. The majority were Eastern Bishops.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.v.i.html
Both the Western Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches recognize the first seven councils in the early years of the church, but Catholics also recognize fourteen councils called in later years by the Pope of the West, while the Eastern Orthodox churches, who do not recognize the authority of the Pope, do not recognize these later seven councils.
"Credo" -- "I believe." And why is it recited 'we'???? Is that Vat 2?
"Credo" -- "I believe." And why is it recited 'we'???? Is that Vat 2?
In at least the English translation, the "we" is taken from the translators, ICEL.
Here's what I think -- it was deliberately changed because of that STUPID 'community over all' mindset in the Vat 2 churches. I bet it happened in the last 20 years. I consider it a bastardization of the Creed. Until proven otherwise....
Both the Greek and Latin say "I believe", and both use the accusative case "in one God" which more literally translates as :"into one God" (which is kinda awkward in English".
"Pisteuo en ena Theon"
"Credo in unum Deum"
[quote]Here's what I think -- it was deliberately changed because of that STUPID 'community over all' mindset in the Vat 2 churches. I bet it happened in the last 20 years. I consider it a bastardization of the Creed. Until proven otherwise....[quote]
Hi bboop,
No it didn't happen in the last 20 years. The original Greek text from 325 AD was in the plural, "Pestevomen", the Latin version followed the same. It was changed to the singular, "Pestevo", in both the Greek and Latin versions in 381 AD. These "new" translations were then carried over to the New Latin and the modern English versions.
Thank you so much. I am relieved. Just heard from an orthodox priest/ friend, the same thing. He mentioned that the next translation might be "I believe" though. Hmmm, how interesting. Out of the depths of history and tradition, then. So interesting. Thanks.
What is so wrong with believing something in common?
-Theo
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