Posted on 11/21/2005 11:58:28 AM PST by NYer
No I expect you to beleive we don't have secret seminaries where there's gay priests fornicating in every room, and giving the eucharist to dogs.
This is actually a situation that deserves swift Vatican top-down action. There is an infection in the American Catholic church going back decades and it will not heal over night.
Further this whole problem begins in 1054 when the pope leaves the apostolic church and declares himself the end all be all maker and breaker of doctrine, then one of his successors decides that priest shouldn't marry since they may create rich dynastys of priests, instead of giving their wealth to the church; making the church a haven for men who are uninterested in traditional marriage and looking to cover up their behavior. After this seed of evil entered the church the bishops completely droped the ball and instead of extinguishing it outright they spread it around the whole church.
Were the shared group of patriarch still in communion at that time they would have intervened in the heresey of requiring men to take a vow of celibacy to enter the priesthood, the whole problem would have been tackled long before it became an infection.
Where you live may determine your proximaty to those orthodox who do evangelize. The orthodox churches in America lack the political and financial muscle of the Roman church. As I mentioned it was my Catholic religion class teacher who encouraged us to visit an Orthodox church.
Dear x5452,
"I said it was an example of top down exercising of authority because another poster was denying that the modern Catholic church ever does that. Again I am all for patriarchs exercising their authority. Though strictly speaking they should be doing so in their canonical churchs."
I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you that there is a difference in ecclesiology between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I just don't think the example you used illustrates the differences.
"As for the sinless not sinless silliness its not the true debate."
Okay. I was only responding to what you posted:
"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is ... sinless...]"
I merely wanted to clarify that we don't think he's sinless, either.
sitetest
I wasn't using it as an example of that [difference in ecclesiology between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches].
I was using it as an example of the Vatican intervening in local affairs, which Jo kus had said is rare.
Orthodoxy is growing primarily from within. Many other churches, including the Catholics, can still make that claim. It is true that the orthodox are making converts from within evangelicallism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But, come on. This is an *extremely* recent phenomenon, and it's powered as much by the evangelicals' reflexive aversion for the papacy as it is a search for Christian roots. Orthodoxy benefits because such folks hate the pope more than they hate what they think is the idolatry of Mary, and, when they see that there is no idolatry or any other thing in Orthodoxy that they had reason to abhor, they flock to it. Their only remaining aversion is for the guy in Rome, so your apostolic nature in your Church suffices for them. Meanwhile, it's not like we Catholics don't make *any* converts in these circles!
As for Alaska, I grant you that. But it was still evangelized primarily as an eastward expansion of Russian Siberia. Hardly any native populations even existed in most od Siberia, and Alaska, while more densely populated, still was rather sparse, and the evangelization was comingled with Russian government and Russian Orthodox interests. That still bears out my point. They have been nowhere in Africa, Asia, Europe or the Americas where they didn't already exist prior to the age of exploration, Siberia and Alaska excepted. For the reasons I cited.
The Old Calendar is 13 days off from the equinoxes. That is undeniable. Left unchecked, it will drift further. One day, given enough time, you will be celebrating Easter in October according to the Julian calendar. That even civil governments in Orthodox countries see the utility in realigning the calendar to reflect the seasons properly points out that there is no need for being so dug in liturgical uses. The Jews have nothing to do with it. They use an entirely different calendar that is bsed on lunar cycles, not a solar year. Their Passover and our Easter better coincide, because they simply take place on the day of the first full moon after the spring equinox (Passover), or the following Sunday (Western Easter). Since the Orthodox Julian calendar still nominally determines Easter based on an assumption of March 21 being the date of the equinox, but, in reality, their March 21 is only March 8, and therefore too early, they often have to wait for the second full moon after the actual equinox to determine Easter. Occasionally, when the full moon after the equinox is far enough ahead, it will fall after March 21 in BOTH calendars. But, when it occurs at other times (usually the case), the Orthodox are forced to wait till the next lunar cycle so that it "appears" to be after March 21 on their calendar. Early May is sometimes the result for Orthodox Easter. When Julian March 21 appears later and later relative to the Gregorian, it will be even further removed from the actual equinox, more lunations will have to pass, and Orthodox Easter will be heading into June, then July, and so forth. Astronomically, this situation makes absolutely no sense at all. It's time for us to all be on the same page in this. The Gregorian calendar is simply better. Let's get on with it.
National traditions are not the same as national churches. All Catholic nationalities are still united to the papacy, regardles of his or their actual ethnicity. People may have traditions as Germans, or Italians, or Polish, etc., but they all recognize the one head. This is not true in Orthodoxy. THAT kind of nationalism is what I'm talking about.
Finally, I hope you read my post where I *specifically* cited the Orthodox for their courage in resisting the Communists, the Moslems, and others in their countries. What makes you think I didn't? You claim that the popes were "resting" in Rome while bishops were being murdered in Russia. Nonsense. What were they supposed to do? They did what they could. So, I'm sure, did the Patriarchs of Constantinople involved at the time. Yet, I dare say, THEY saw all of these murders take place in Russia while they were comfortably ensconced in Istanbul. So what's your point? I NEVER said the Orthodox "had it easy" in Russia against the Soviets. Read the post again.
Dear x5452,
Well, I feel like we're beginning to strain at gnats, but I'll give it one last shot.
In post #39, you described differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches:
"Well, you demonstrate one of the differences between the One Church of the 7 Ecumenical Councils and what developed in the West. The Orthodox system is one of 'syndeesmos' or a sort of partnership among the hierarchs, clergy and the laity, each having its own function and proper role and together making up The Church. The Roman Church is a top down system."
This is what I meant by a difference in ecclesiology - that is the structure and proper governance of the Church.
Jo kus replied to you in #58:
"That hardly describes the situation on the ground. A cursory view of the Church's life in the US will shatter the illusion that the Church is top-down here!"
He is disputing your characterization of the Catholic Church as being "top-down," in response to your prior post, which seems to clearly point out a difference in ecclesiology. By the way, I agree with you about that difference.
You replied in #59:
"Just read an article in another thread where the pope excommunicated a priest (somewhere in england or Australia i think) that seems like top down correction to me."
This note by you seems to be presented as evidence of the difference between our Churches.
My point is only that this doesn't seem to actually demonstrate the difference that you expressed. Whether you characterize it as a difference in ecclesiology (which seems to me to be what you expressed in #39) or that the Catholic Church is top-down and the Orthodox are not, this demonstrates neither. The reason why is that, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), in a similar situation, an Orthodox Patriarch would do something similar.
The priest in the article is an actual apostate, having decided, a few decades ago, to follow a non-Christian "prophet." Apparently, after over 20 years of remonstrating with him, the Church, on the authority of the Patriarch of Rome, excommunicated him.
Other than maybe not taking so long to act, would an Orthodox Patriarch have not acted to excommunicate such a priest?
I pinged Kolokotronis because he seems quite knowledgeable of the ins-and-outs of how Orthodox do things ecclesiologically.
sitetest
I think the would and should in that situation as I've said.
I understand your concern. However, I would like to comment. Feel free to respond.
First, the Church, even before the Great Schism, has been as you describe above. Perhaps not to the same degree, but we can easily find entire areas that were swept up in heresy. Must I remind you of Arianism again? The majority of Eastern Churches at the time were Arian, against the Catholic belief AND practice of the time. In other words, EVEN the Arians WORSHIP Christ as God. Thus, it is not uncommon for worship to become separated from doctrinal definitions.
Next, I strongly disagree with your generalization that "all" Catholics that you meet do not follow their Church's teaching. That is a generalization that I don't find to be true. Sure, there are many who don't believe this or that. They have not been properly catechized. But there still are a number of the "silent majority" who continue to believe what the Church teaches, and practices it.
In a perfect world, everyone would believe the same thing and doctrine would reflect that. But man is sinful and proud. Thus, even within the Church, we will find people who disagree with Catholic (or Orthodox) teachings. Also, the Bible mentions having to deal with lukewarm Christians, or what we call nominal Catholics. They are Catholic in name only. The Spirit comes to those who OPEN themselves to Him, not just because they had an official Baptism/Confirmation. We each must have a conversion experience, even those who are born into the faith. Otherwise, the Spirit is pushed out. People here in America are very much tempted by the culture. Not only to follow materialistic ways, but to think that the Church is a democracy and that people can believe what they want. As an Orthodox, you should be able to understand that man's reason is insufficient to come to the knowledge of Christ.
I don't find that agreement on heresies as a sign of a good Church. Just because people agree on an error doesn't make it correct. So again, unity does not necessarily point to the Church, as it is the timeless Church, not the Church of today only, that gives us our Tradition, the teachings passed down. I believe that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their own distinct issues and problems. Rather than pointing out ours, you should be looking to correct your own.
Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.
Again, your Catholic "education" leaves much to be desired, as the Church does not teach that the Pope is impeccable. Your "difference" is a false dichotomy. If you still don't believe me, check out the Catechism. It clearly states that the Pope is NOT sinless.
Regards
So who "relaxed" the contraception teaching within the Orthodox? Did the people "vote" on this? Was their a Council that refuted it? What happened some 75 years ago?
Try not to be thrown by "papal supremacy". It gives the Pope the POWER to do "x" and "y", but in practice, he rarely uses it, choosing to NOT lording it over others. Techinically, the Pope could disband schools that teach incorrect practices, bar theologians who teach incorrectly, chastise local churches for improper liturgical practice, and so forth. SOMEONE should have this power - IF the Church IS ONE! But, in reality, how often to you see the Pope practicing these "powers"? Hardly ever. Perhaps most would agree that he SHOULD DO MORE!
Regards
So who "relaxed" the contraception teaching within the Orthodox? Did the people "vote" on this? Was their a Council that refuted it? What happened some 75 years ago?
Try not to be thrown by "papal supremacy". It gives the Pope the POWER to do "x" and "y", but in practice, he rarely uses it, choosing to NOT lording it over others. Techinically, the Pope could disband schools that teach incorrect practices, bar theologians who teach incorrectly, chastise local churches for improper liturgical practice, and so forth. SOMEONE should have this power - IF the Church IS ONE! But, in reality, how often do you see the Pope practicing these "powers"? Hardly ever. Perhaps most would agree that he SHOULD DO MORE!
Regards
Show me the bull of that. I think you are referring to the two patriarchs, Constantinople and Rome, excommunicating each other, in 1054. But those bulls have been lifted during the 20th century, and were ONLY applied to those two specific men. Your polemics are incorrect, the Orthodox do not consider Benedict XVI a heretic...
Regards
A heretic is one who holds a heretcal beleif.
The notion that the pope is the head of the church and not Christ is heretical to the orthodox doctrine.
Do the math.
(The Orthodox actually use heretical and Apostasy quite often...)
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Roman_Catholic_Church
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Heresy
Certain Bishops in Certain Jurisdictions, same as within the Catholic church relaxed the teaching. (I think I posted a link to an exhaustive look at this).
The orthodox objection to the papal supremacy is not with regard to how often he uses it, it is with regard to the fact they find it heretical.
That leaves little work for the creator of the universe.
I hadn't realized that there are still Orthodox out there who believe that stuff... Perhaps you should return to reading the Church Fathers and you will find out over and over again that the Bishop of Rome DID have a primacy that was over and above a figurehead like the Queen of England. First among equals! It means more than what you claim. It was HE whom the Bishops wrote to for clarifications on doctrinal disagreements. Did Rome ever write to St. John Chrysostom or Athanasius to get official rulings on the faith? When heretics appeared within the Church, did Rome write to Athanasius for help? WHY ROME? Rome is thousands of miles from Alexandria. Unless, of course, Athanasius and the other Eastern Fathers recognized that the Bishop of Rome was the successor of Peter, the leader of the Apostles - first among equals, but given the keys, given the responsibility to feed Christ's Sheep. Ignoring this is ignoring the history of the Church at least 600-700 years BEFORE the Great Schism.
then one of his successors decides that priest shouldn't marry since they may create rich dynastys of priests
Again, you are misinformed. The Western practice of celibacy of priests was a discipline before the Great Schism. Even if it was not, it is a discipline - so it is not a heresy, as you claim. Again, your polemics do not help matters but only throw fuel on the fire.
Were the shared group of patriarch still in communion at that time they would have intervened in the heresey of requiring men to take a vow of celibacy to enter the priesthood, the whole problem would have been tackled long before it became an infection.
LOL! If only the Catholic Church didn't leave the Orthodox church...You read the secular paper's version on what happened regarding the sexual abuse scandal. This totally ignores that FACT that there are many more MARRIED perverts, school teachers, cub Scout leaders, janitors, people of ALL social classes and occupations. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING MARRIED OR CELIBATE! If a person is gay or has gay tendencies, marriage doesn't "fix" them! Psychologists have largely disproved that idea. Much of the problem, as I mentioned before, is the UNITED STATES bishops and their dissent to Paul VI encyclical on contraception. Dissent and the accpetance within culture of homosexual and deviant behavior has been a big part of the problem - by the way, which is NOT a problem in the vast majority of Catholicism, ONLY in the US. Being that the Church in America is less than 10% of the total Catholic Church, I would hardly say that this problem pervades the entire Church...
Regards
Whatever. Read the post AGAIN. I spoke of the secularized culture that inevitably derives from a heretical Christian one.
Orthodoxy *is* growing mostly from within, at least in the ethnic sense. Most of the converts in Russia and other former Soviet satellites are from ethnic Orthodox stock. Their families merely bypassed Orthodox observance for a few generations, so they are genuine converts. That's a good thing. And it is true that there are more than a few conversions of evangelicals and disaffected Catholics in places like the US. But they are still the minority. And even there, the converts seek out the Orthodox, not vice versa. Of course it's on every continent, but in most cases it merely followed its own adherents in their migrations. Very little evangelical proselytization has ever occured with a view to actually Christianizing the pagans wherever they may be found. That was my point.
Your calendar is 13 days off relative to the vernal equinox that determines Easter. Period. The Gregorian calendar sought to realign March 21 with the equinox, since that was the date of the equinox at the time of the Council of Nicaea in 325. The equinox is the equinox. It happens when it happens, no matter what date either one of us wants to call it. But March 21 is supposed to be important to assign to the equinox. The Gregorian has it fall on March 21 (or occasionally in the late hours of March 20). It will take something like 3500 years to drift one full day if uncorrected. The Julian has March 21 fall on Gregorian April 3, thirteen days after the astronomical reality of the vernal equinox has already taken place. If March 21 is such an important date to both of us, and we have already made the adjustment, there's only one way to go here. The division over this is just silly. Even the Anglicans decided that enough was enough, and got in line with the improved Gregorian calendar around 1750.
The "heresy" of one head? The *heresy* of primacy? You have been separated from us for so long that you have built up primacy as an issue involving *heresy*??? I dunno about that! It seems to me that the Orthodox, generally, are willing to assign primacy to the bishop of Rome with certain restrictions, but we differ as to the boundaries of papal authority. The principle of primacy is not denied and watered down to the point where to even refer to it is a "heresy," is it? Perhaps I have misread the statements of the last few Ecumenical Patriarchs and others on this topic. It's not my business to tell you what your own Church teaches, but I think you will find that the basic principle of some element of primacy is considered worth exploring from your point of view, and therefore is not a "heresy," for the mere mention of which anathemas flow.
As for the Ukrainians, I fail to see the connection. The Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox have always coexisted. The Soviets did their darnedest to undermine both Churches. They were particularly zealous in this regard with the Catholics, as they were "under a foreign head." Many Catholic churches were ripped away. The Church lost huge amounts of its own patrimony. Now that religious freedom has, relatively speaking, made a comeback in Russia, the Catholics want at least some of their former property back. The Orthodox, xenophobic as usual, have moved heaven and earth to get the secular government to not officially recognize anything but Orthodoxy. Where's the freedom? Catholics, a sizable minority, but a minority just the same, want their rights. That some of them seek these rights at the expense of the Orthodox in some of the property disputes is perfectly understandable. I suppose your opposition to that is also perfectly understandable. But neither of us should whine about it. The situation is complex, and a massive scandal against the letter and spirit of John 17:20-21. We both need to move more toward each other, instead of demanding that the "other side" makes all of the movements forward.
I spoke of the secularized culture that inevitably derives from a heretical Christian one. Russian orthodoxy, and the rest of Orthodoxy in the homelands, doesn't deal with religious modernism or the post-Christian secularism derived from Protestantism. All of that stuff is ovr here, and stems from the multiplicity of sects coming out of the so-called Reformation. It just isn't an issue for the Orthodox. It may become one as time goes on, particularly in Orthodox outposts in places like the US, but it's not a big thing yet. Therefor, Orthodoxy is relatively untainted at its lower levels by clashes with post-Christian religious modernism and post-Christian secularism derived from a non-apostolic understanding of Christianity. That's ALL I meant. I was NOT talking about battling secularism in the atheistic Communist mode. You guys were simply battling *that* brand of secularism for survival, and I already said (in two posts!) that I have great admiration for that. If you want to argue with me about the fact that I value the Orthodox for this, fine. But read carefully enough to know what I mean by "secularism" before you go off.
Interesting link regarding the Orthodox perception of the Bishop of Rome:
http://www.thechristianactivist.com/Vol%207/V7F2000.htm
I hadn't realized that the Orthodox Church declared Ecumenical Councils validly led by the Bishop of Rome are no longer infallible. Because this WAS believed BEFORE the Great Schism... Can you point me to an Orthodox Ecumenical Council that made that statement?
The problem here is that you are using "papal supremacy" without defining it. Secondly, you seem to believe that the Church is frozen in time at the year 1054 - that Doctrine developed throughout the first millenium, then stopped at that date. Know that just as the Catholic Church continued to define doctrine after the Nestorians left, or the Armenians left, or the Coptics left, the Catholic Church will CONTINUE to define doctrine after the Orthodox or the Protestants left the Church. Is this surprising?
Regards
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