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The Earthly Father: What if Mary wasn't a virgin?
Slate ^ | Dec. 22, 2005 | The Rev. Chloe Breyer

Posted on 12/26/2005 4:14:15 PM PST by hiho hiho

Can Jesus be the son of God and Joseph?

At Christmas, Christians celebrate the birth of God's only son. Some believers, however, wonder if Jesus Christ is God's son only. The ancient "illegitimacy tradition" and its modern proponents propose that Jesus may have had a human father. That idea upsets one of the central mysteries of the Christian faith—the virgin conception. But it's entirely in keeping with more essential tenets: Jesus' role as the Messiah, and God's love for the poor and downtrodden. What's more, the illegitimacy tradition responds to many strange utterances about Jesus' birth in the Scriptures themselves.

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Can a loyal Christian believe that Christ was not born of a biological virgin? Perhaps it's worth posing a different question: Why is church authority so intent upon Mary's virginity as a historical fact? Would Jesus be any less God's son if he had an earthly father? The central message of the Gospel is that God raised up and redeemed his servant from death by crucifixion—the Roman style of execution reserved for the lowest of the low. Why couldn't God have sent the same message of divine solidarity with the world's outcasts by making a Messiah out of a man whose conception was also taboo?

(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; crapola; ecusa; episcopal; episocpal; heresy; religiousleft; virginbirth
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The Rev. Chloe Breyer is an Episcopal priest and mother of two. She works at St. Mary's Manhattanville in West Harlem, N.Y., and is the author of The Close: A Young Women's First Year at Seminary.

Chloe Breyer is the daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

1 posted on 12/26/2005 4:14:16 PM PST by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho
Why is church authority so intent upon Mary's virginity as a historical fact?

Hmmm. Believing the scriptures, perhaps?
2 posted on 12/26/2005 4:21:41 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: hiho hiho
Yeah, and why was God so interested in Jews anyway......hey, maybe they weren't really the chosen people...... >sarcasm
3 posted on 12/26/2005 4:26:51 PM PST by Lakeshark (Thank a member of the US armed forces for their sacrifice)
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To: hiho hiho

She probably believes she's just too, too original, but Arius beat her to it by about 1800 years. Snoooooze ...


4 posted on 12/26/2005 4:28:37 PM PST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)
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To: Lakeshark

Chosen people??? Whose word do we have on that?


5 posted on 12/26/2005 4:30:41 PM PST by cynicom
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To: Tax-chick

Nothing new about this particular heresy.


6 posted on 12/26/2005 4:34:15 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: RightWhale

Funny how she graduated from seminary and never studied history. My daughter did Church History in the 8th grade, and regaled us with colorful heresies at dinner for a whole semester. (Much nicer than when our son studied food safety, I have to say ... )


7 posted on 12/26/2005 4:36:08 PM PST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)
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To: hiho hiho

8 posted on 12/26/2005 4:37:49 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: hiho hiho
Why is church authority so intent upon Mary's virginity as a historical fact?

Perhaps it is because it is the truth, and it because Jewish prophecy required the virgin birth as a sign of the true Messiah?

Would Jesus be any less God's son if he had an earthly father?

Yes, he would not have been God's son as only the Word could be (please see John 1:1-8). He would not have had the ability to offer the Perfect Sacrifice as the Perfect Priest for the salvation of mankind. He would have been a liar. But incompetent teaching authority might suggest otherwise as this "priest" has done and as her church might do.

"An Episcopal priest" is a sign of the error of the ECUSA in particular and the EC in general. Add to that the ordination of public, active homosexual(s) as bishop(s), and one can see heresy in action.

9 posted on 12/26/2005 4:38:21 PM PST by TheGeezer
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To: silverleaf

Because,Jesus is the Son of God and MAry-the Catholic Church and countless Popes have declared by the Bible an theology,also by the very words of the Virgin Mary,on the Feast day of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION--it is understood without questioning ,THAT GOD granted MAry the singular GRACE and favor that she was to remain forever a VIRGIN and still bring forth Jesus---this was NOT impossible for GOD-it was HIS will and it was so>


10 posted on 12/26/2005 4:41:57 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular,atend the Latin Tridentine MASS)
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To: silverleaf

Because,Jesus is the Son of God and MAry-the Catholic Church and countless Popes have declared by the Bible an theology,also by the very words of the Virgin Mary,on the Feast day of the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION--it is understood without questioning ,THAT GOD granted MAry the singular GRACE and favor that she was to remain forever a VIRGIN and still bring forth Jesus---this was NOT impossible for GOD-it was HIS will and it was so>


11 posted on 12/26/2005 4:42:27 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular,attend the Latin Tridentine MASS)
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To: hiho hiho
Can a loyal Christian believe that Christ was not born of a biological virgin?
Perhaps it's worth posing a different question:
Why is church authority so intent upon Mary's virginity as a historical fact?

This woman is totally lost.

She is unfamiliar with the Holy Word of G-d.

She is on the wide way to destruction.

I pray that one day soon the L-rd will invite her
to learn of and accept Y'shua as L-rd and Savior

b'shem Y'shua

12 posted on 12/26/2005 4:44:10 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: Rosary

If Mary was "forever a virgin," how does one explain the other children she and Joseph had? Like, say, the Apostle James?


13 posted on 12/26/2005 4:44:20 PM PST by Xenalyte (Tom Cruise is in my closet and he won't come out.)
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To: XeniaSt

She is also revisiting Nestorianism and re-opening the Council of Ephesus which, made its decision in 431. Not exactly proposing an original question and certainly no need to look very hard for an answer... she need simply go back to the days of the very early church.


14 posted on 12/26/2005 4:49:53 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2

Man eventually figured out how to create virgin births through IVF. So of what difficulty is it for YHVH if Joseph had a son before the marriage was consummated. The elderly Sarah could have potentially saved herself a hassle if she had believed the Word straight away (like Mary), instead of laughing.


15 posted on 12/26/2005 4:52:27 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal (As it was in the days of NO...)
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To: hiho hiho
Chloe Breyer is the daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

I saw the name and recognized it at once. I couldn't bring myself to read the whole article. How far into the piece did she tell us how much God(dess) loves the holy sacrament of abortion?

16 posted on 12/26/2005 4:55:02 PM PST by madprof98
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To: Xenalyte

The Catholic Church teaches that those described in the Bible as "brothers of the Lord" and so forth were not children of Mary. There is nothing, in fact, that mentions their being children of Mary, so it's a question of interpretation of "brothers/sisters."

One line of analysis posits James, Joses, etc., as more distant relatives through His mother, because of the lack of nouns in Hebrew to designate "first-cousin-once-removed" and so forth. Another theory is that they may have been children of Joseph's from a previous marriage, and therefore Jesus' step-brothers.

It is, of course, a matter of one's accepting the interpretive authority of the Church on the question. On the other hand, the issue of Jesus' being conceived "of the Holy Spirit," rather than the natural son of Joseph, is clearly settled in the Gospels.


17 posted on 12/26/2005 4:59:07 PM PST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)
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To: Xenalyte
There are a couple different traditions about this - because, of course, it occurred to the very early Christians who also insisted on the perpetual virginity of Mary. One line of tradition holds that the "brothers" of Jesus are in fact his cousins. This is most often cited by Catholics today. The Orthodox more often say that the "brothers" were half-brothers--sons of Joseph by an earlier marriage but not sons of Mary.

If the perpetual virginity of Mary were just a pious fiction, it would seem that many early churchmen would have rejected these somewhat convoluted explanations. But they did not.

18 posted on 12/26/2005 5:00:03 PM PST by madprof98
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To: Tax-chick

I'd always understood (mind you, I'm of that heretical sect known as Episcopalian) that Mary was a virgin when she married (but not necessarily after Jesus' birth). Was unaware of the nuance - thanks for the explication!


19 posted on 12/26/2005 5:01:02 PM PST by Xenalyte (Tom Cruise is in my closet and he won't come out.)
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To: Xenalyte
If Mary was "forever a virgin," how does one explain the other children she and Joseph had?

Scripture teaches the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to only one child, Jesus Christ. A belief shared by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al.

Like, say, the Apostle James?

Scripture teaches that there were two Apostles named James. Scripture also teaches that the parents of James the Greater were Zebedee and Salome. The parents of James the Lessor were Cleophas(Alphaeus) and the other Mary(Matthew 27:56,61, 28:1, John 19:25)

20 posted on 12/26/2005 5:05:09 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Xenalyte
I'd always understood (mind you, I'm of that heretical sect known as Episcopalian) that Mary was a virgin when she married (but not necessarily after Jesus' birth).

That's an understandable position based on the texts, especially as we have them in English. I lean to the "stepbrothers" interpretation, myself. I like the idea of St. Joseph as an older man with lots of patience :-).

21 posted on 12/26/2005 5:05:21 PM PST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)
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To: silverleaf
She is also revisiting Nestorianism and re-opening the Council of Ephesus which, made its decision in 431. Not exactly proposing an original question and certainly no need to look very hard for an answer... she need simply go back to the days of the very early church.

14 posted on 12/26/2005 5:49:53 PM MST by silverleaf

She seems steeped in "higher criticism",
but is blissfully and completely unaware
of the Old Testament prophesies.

b'shem Y'shua

22 posted on 12/26/2005 5:50:38 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: hiho hiho

[26]

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

[27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
[29] But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
[30] And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
[31] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
[32] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
[33] and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end."
[34] And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"
[35] And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.
[36]

And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.

[37] For with God nothing will be impossible."
[38] And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
[39]

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,

[40] and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth.
[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
[43] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.
[45] And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

Luke 1: 26-45

Why should I believe the speculation of some 21st century person playing with heresy instead of Luke?


23 posted on 12/26/2005 5:53:14 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: hiho hiho
Chloe Breyer is the daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

I thought Breyer was Jewish?

24 posted on 12/26/2005 5:56:36 PM PST by Cowboy Bob (Liberalism cannot survive in a free and open society.)
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To: Xenalyte
If Mary was "forever a virgin," how does one explain the other children she and Joseph had? Like, say, the Apostle James?

Maybe God made her a virgin retroactively? 'Omnipotence' gives pretty good latitude.

25 posted on 12/26/2005 5:56:38 PM PST by Grut
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
Luke 1: 26-45

What translation is that ?

b'shem Y'shua

26 posted on 12/26/2005 5:58:21 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: Tax-chick
The Muslims believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus, but they don't believe He was the Son of God. They believe that Allah created Jesus in Mary's womb, just as He created Adam. In other words, Jesus was a creature, ONLY a creature, just like the rest of us.

It is in order to dispel such a misunderstanding that the Nicene Creed states: "Begotten, not made: one in being with the Father." So Jesus is a true son of Mary (truly Man) and the true, only-begotten son of God (truly God.) As for Mary's perpetual virginity: that's why the persecuted 1st-century believers in the catacombs under the city of Rome dared to put inscriptions on the walls like "Beata Maria Semper Virgine."

27 posted on 12/26/2005 6:06:41 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Rosa Mystica, Turris Davidica, ora pro nobis..)
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To: hiho hiho
The Rev. Chloe Breyer is an Episcopal priest and mother of two. She works at St. Mary's Manhattanville in West Harlem, N.Y., and is the author of The Close: A Young Women's First Year at Seminary.
Chloe Breyer is the daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

Oh cripes ... the father of this whack-job heretic is on the Supreme Court? Well ... I hope he does a better job of interpreting the Constitution than he did raising a 'God-fearing', Bible-believing daughter ... but somehow I think they both believe in 'living', maleable, historical documents - that are open-season for their interpretations...
Go Alito!
(and why doesn't the Episcopalian church just turn in their 'Christian' card and call it a day?)

28 posted on 12/26/2005 6:07:55 PM PST by El Cid
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To: Cowboy Bob; hiho hiho
h h>Chloe Breyer is the daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

CB>I thought Breyer was Jewish?

24 posted on 12/26/2005 6:56:36 PM MST by Cowboy Bob

WiKi

Born to a middle-class Jewish family in San Francisco, California,
Breyer married Joanna Hare, a psychologist and member of the British aristocracy,
in 1967. The couple have three children: Chloe, Nell, and Michael.

B'shem Y'shua

29 posted on 12/26/2005 6:09:37 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: Mrs. Don-o
They believe that Allah created Jesus in Mary's womb, just as He created Adam.

Interesting ... I didn't know that.

the persecuted 1st-century believers in the catacombs under the city of Rome dared to put inscriptions on the walls like "Beata Maria Semper Virgine

I didn't know that, either! Of course, the ancient Romans weren't dealing with English translations of Gospels that (after all) had hardly been distributed at that time. I understand how a modern reader, absent other information, could come to the conclusion that Joseph and Mary had other children.

30 posted on 12/26/2005 6:12:12 PM PST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)
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To: XeniaSt

Revised Standard Version. Not the New Revised Standard Version.


31 posted on 12/26/2005 6:21:42 PM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Xenalyte

Dumb question-Jesus was the ONLY BEGOTTEN, anyone else who say otherwise utters Blasphemy---and there is enough earthquakes and hurricanes without adding offence to Mary ,and Joseph-and GOD.


32 posted on 12/26/2005 6:23:09 PM PST by Rosary (Pray the rosary daily,wear the Brown scapular)
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To: Tax-chick; Mrs. Don-o
I didn't know that, either! Of course, the ancient Romans weren't dealing with English translations of Gospels that (after all) had hardly been distributed at that time. I understand how a modern reader, absent other information, could come to the conclusion that Joseph and Mary had other children.

30 posted on 12/26/2005 7:12:12 PM MST by Tax-chick (A child is born in Bethlehem, Alleluia!)

Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

Matthew 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

b'shem Y'shua
33 posted on 12/26/2005 6:23:26 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
RSV

thanks.

34 posted on 12/26/2005 6:27:02 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: XeniaSt


35 posted on 12/26/2005 6:33:43 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (2 Samuel 22:32 For who is G-d besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except for our G-d)
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To: sionnsar
Heretical Episcopalian priestess ping.
36 posted on 12/26/2005 6:34:15 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Xenalyte

How do you know that she and Joseph had other children? There is an old tradition, iaud out in a 2nd Century writing called "The protogospel of St, James" which has it that James and the other brothers were the children of Joseph, but not of Mary.


37 posted on 12/26/2005 6:39:01 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: hiho hiho
Can a loyal Christian believe that Christ was not born of a biological virgin?

No.

Of course, if one follows the tenets of another celebrated theologian most noted for the incisive question "Yea, hath God said...."

38 posted on 12/26/2005 6:49:47 PM PST by papertyger
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To: Xenalyte
I'd always understood (mind you, I'm of that heretical sect known as Episcopalian) that Mary was a virgin when she married (but not necessarily after Jesus' birth). Was unaware of the nuance - thanks for the explication!

That's one thing I've always heald you in high regard for X...for all your feminine swagger, you never let it leak over into actual vanity.

You really are a jewel.

39 posted on 12/26/2005 7:04:29 PM PST by papertyger
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To: hiho hiho

There is a rather lengthy discussion of this article here:

http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=10535


40 posted on 12/26/2005 7:11:27 PM PST by hiho hiho
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To: ahadams2; AnalogReigns; Uriah_lost; Condor 63; Fractal Trader; Zero Sum; anselmcantuar; Agrarian; ..
Thanks to PAR35 for the ping.

Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (typically 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by sionnsar, Huber and newheart.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com

Humor: The Anglican Blue (by Huber)

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

41 posted on 12/26/2005 7:22:43 PM PST by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Libs: Celebrate MY diversity, eh! || Iran Azadi 2006)
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To: papertyger

Aren't you sweet! I wish I had the guts to ping to your post a FReeper who thinks I'm proud of being full of it.


42 posted on 12/26/2005 7:28:05 PM PST by Xenalyte (Tom Cruise is in my closet and he won't come out.)
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To: hiho hiho
The central message of the Gospel is that God raised up and redeemed his servant from death by crucifixion—the Roman style of execution reserved for the lowest of the low.

Well, that certainly is an ingenious interpretation. I always thought that the central message of the Gospel was that God came to earth, took upon himself the sins of the world, suffered death on the cross, and rose again the third day.

43 posted on 12/26/2005 7:28:54 PM PST by Logophile
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To: XeniaSt
You quoted from the Gospel of Matthew: "Matthew 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Some people point to this as evidence that Joseph did have marital relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus, It's as easy enough assumption to make in English, where "until" implies that the action was subsequently done. "I didn't learn to read until I was nine" would be taken to mean, "When I was nine, I did learn to read."

However, that's not the way it works in ancient Greek and Hebrew.

The word "until" (Greek, heos) indicated that an act did not occur up to a certain point; it did not imply, as it does today, that the act later took place

In Genesis 8:7 Noah lets out a raven, which is said not to return to the ark "until" the waters had dried up from the face of the earth. In fact, the raven never returned at all, even after the waters had dried up

In 1 Timothy 4:13, Paul instructs Timothy to attend to reading, exhortation, and teaching "until I arrive," but has any Christian understood Paul to mean that Timothy should ignore Paul's exhortation and teaching after his visit?

In 2 Samuel 6:23 we are told that Michal, the daughter of Saul, "had no children until the day of her death." Surely this does not imply that she gave birth to children after she died!

These words can sometimes be used to mean exactly the same as the English word "until," but as I have illustrated, that's not always the case.

Anyway, if you really understood the unspeakably intimate relationship that Mary had with God in order to become the mother of His Son, --- well, how could Joseph sleep with her after that? It would be like touching the Ark of the Covenant. He would tremble even to think it. And it seems gross and offensive that God who "begot" Jesus in the womb of Mary, would say to St. Joseph, "Here, I had her and I'm through with her; you can have her now."

44 posted on 12/26/2005 7:32:52 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Rosa Mystica, Turris Davidica, ora pro nobis..)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
well, how could Joseph sleep with her after that? It would be like touching the Ark of the Covenant.

Mary's body was in effect, the ark of the New Covenant. Quite realistic to presume that a pious Jew like Joseph would think like that and act accordingly. Besides, for other than the highest priests, I believe the act of a common man touching the original ark brought a death sentence.
45 posted on 12/26/2005 7:53:04 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: hiho hiho
Would Jesus be any less God's son if he had an earthly father?

The concept of Jesus being born without sin, without the stain of the descendants of Adam (Cain), is fundamental to His purity as the Son of God.

Would the idea of an earthly father not be the most damaging idea to Christianity?

Only if someone found the body.

46 posted on 12/26/2005 8:00:04 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The word "until" (Greek, heos) indicated that an act did not occur up to a certain point; it did not imply, as it does today, that the act later took place

Strong's Number 2193 matches the Greek heos ; It is used as a conjunction in time indicating a change in action. I address only the NT

Anyway, if you really understood the unspeakably intimate relationship that Mary had with God in order to become the mother of His Son, --- well, how could Joseph sleep with her after that? It would be like touching the Ark of the Covenant. He would tremble even to think it. And it seems gross and offensive that God who "begot" Jesus in the womb of Mary, would say to St. Joseph, "Here, I had her and I'm through with her; you can have her now."

This is an appeal to emotions based on some Gnostic belief.

It does not follow from the plain text.

I believe that if G-d had wanted any other understanding other than the plain text ;
it would have been in the plain text. As it is G-d's Holy Word.

b'shem Y'shua

47 posted on 12/26/2005 8:18:18 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 ( For who is G-d besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except for our G-d (2 Samuel 22:32))
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To: madprof98
The Orthodox more often say that the "brothers" were half-brothers--sons of Joseph by an earlier marriage but not sons of Mary.

If that were the case they would be stepbrothers.. not half brothers. But they are half brothers because Mary did have other children and it is explicitly mentioned in scripture. The fact that the Roman Church does not want this to be does not change the simple fact that it is.

Even Ignatius, writing to the Apostle John in the first century alludes to the "Venerable James" very Christ like in appearance, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

Hegesippus, a second century Christian Chronicler, writes that James was the Lord's brother, holy from his mother's womb. He calls the grandsons of Jude kindred of the Lord, and says that Jude was the brother of Jesus according to the flesh.

Jesus was a brother to at least six siblings.....four boys mentioned in scripture and at least two sisters, all natural children of Joseph and Mary. Jesus was obviously the eldest.

48 posted on 12/26/2005 9:12:18 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Xenalyte
Aren't you sweet! I wish I had the guts to ping to your post a FReeper who thinks I'm proud of being full of it.

No.... I'm not.

Haven't you ever read any of my posts? ;o)

You've got better things to think about than greasing the hand-hold of some pygmy trying to pull you down.

49 posted on 12/26/2005 10:48:17 PM PST by papertyger
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To: Diego1618
But they are half brothers because Mary did have other children and it is explicitly mentioned in scripture.

Incorrect. Nowhere does Scripture describe the Blessed Virgin Mary giving birth to any children other than Jesus.

The fact that the Roman Church does not want this to be does not change the simple fact that it is.

Incorrect. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al, hardly members of the "Roman Church", all believed in and taught that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to a single child and remained a perpetual virgin. The attempt to manipulate the truth regarding the "brothers and sisters" of Christ is a relatively recent phenomenon engaged in by those who possess a deficient knowledge of Scripture, Jewish custom and language.

Jesus was a brother to at least six siblings.....four boys mentioned in scripture and at least two sisters, all natural children of Joseph and Mary. Jesus was obviously the eldest.

Incorrect. I suggest you provide the references from Scripture which "prove" your false assertions. You won't be able to.

50 posted on 12/26/2005 10:59:12 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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