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Protestants and the Pope
Westminster Seminary California ^ | July/August 2005 | W. Robert Godfrey

Posted on 12/28/2005 9:56:34 AM PST by topcat54

The death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Pope Benedict XVI have drawn great attention to the papacy in recent months. Such intense interest is remarkable. Much of it relates to the personality and accomplishments of John Paul II. He was a man of great courage and contributed significantly to the collapse of communism in eastern Europe.

Part of the interest also results from the powerful images that Rome can offer television cameras. Some of the greatest art and architecture of western civilization serve as a backdrop for elaborate rituals performed by gloriously clad clerics.

Part of the appeal for many—including non-Roman Catholics—is the sense of continuity and certainty provided by the institution of the papacy. The office of the pope connects us with the past, with a time of greater Christian presence and influence at all levels of society and culture in the west. It also speaks of certain moral standards defended against the relativism of our times.

(Excerpt) Read more at 69.59.173.95 ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichrist; crapola; papacy; vatican
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All of these elements of appeal for the papacy went largely unexamined by the media. I heard few authentically Protestant voices challenging the papacy on historical or theological terms. A few Protestant leaders briefly provided words of praise for John Paul II, but the only criticism of papal theological positions came from more liberal Roman Catholics.

Perhaps the nature of the event (and of the media) made it unlikely that much Protestant opinion would be expressed. But in America—with many more Protestants than Roman Catholics—one might have expected some media exploration of why Protestants do not acknowledge the pope as the head of the church. The repeated claims that the pope is the successor of Peter and that the papacy is a 2000 year old institution went unexplored and unchallenged.

This Protestant silence says much about the state of Protestantism today. After observing the postponement of a royal wedding and the presence of the Prince of Wales, the prime minister and the Archbishop of Canterbury at the papal funeral, one Oxford historian declared, “Protestant England is dead.” Similarly, in America the reaction to the death of John Paul II was surprising. Our president, a Methodist, ordered American flags flown at half-staff—an honor not even accorded Winston Churchill. And while Mrs. Lillian Carter headed the American delegation to the funeral of John Paul I, the president and two former presidents represented the United States at this funeral. Does the American response indicate that Protestant America is more interested in religious toleration or a Christian united front than it once was?

1 posted on 12/28/2005 9:56:34 AM PST by topcat54
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

GRPL Ping


2 posted on 12/28/2005 9:57:55 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54

I got this as my daily grace gem after John Paul II died:

The Death of John Paul II

I grieve for John Paul II who gained the whole world
but forfeited his soul. Year after year he was the most
loved and admired man in the world, but because he
was blinded by the prince of this world, he never saw
the light of the gospel or the glory of Christ. Had he
been a devoted follower of Jesus Christ he would have
been hated and persecuted by the world. I also grieve
for the many who have been deceived by this pope and
his religion. It breaks my heart to see so many professing
Christians who cannot discern truth from error and genuine
Christianity from its counterfeit.

If ever there was a more important time for faithful servants
of our Lord Jesus Christ to take a stand for the truth, it is now.
The religious corruption of Rome has been on constant display
for the whole world to see. The splendor and pageantry has
been extraordinary. Thousands of deceived people have stood
in long lines to venerate a dead man with a rosary in his hands
and a twisted crucifix by his side. Bishops and Cardinals are
now encouraging Catholics to pray to and for this dead pope
whose body is constantly being "blessed" with incense and holy
water. Praying prayers with meaningless repetition to anyone
other than God is an abomination to God (Matthew 6:5-7;
Deut. 18:11). The bizarre veneration and adoration of this man
has been unprecedented. It appears no one is concerned with
the words of Jesus who said, "Woe to you when all men speak
well of you" (Luke 6:26)

Tragically the pope has had greater success in deceiving the
world since he died than during his 26 year pontificate. The
global media has become his mouthpiece and willing partner
in spreading his perverted theology. Through non-stop television
coverage, the pope's church has become the world's stage. Its
princes have been masquerading in their purple and scarlet robes
as "ministers of righteousness." They have cast a spell over the
TV audience with the splendor or their rituals and the pomp and
pageantry of their pagan traditions. The magnificence and
grandeur of this corrupt religion has bewitched much of the
gullible world into believing this is what Christianity is all about.

Few evangelical leaders will speak about the pope's false gospel
that shut the kingdom of heaven to those who wanted to enter.
They refuse to acknowledge that he was condemned by God's
word for preaching another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9). Instead they
are saying that since he "believed in Jesus," he went directly
to heaven. His salvation has been guaranteed by some
evangelicals because of his suffering, goodness, and holiness.
There are times in the lives of evangelicals when our faith is
tested. This is indeed one of those tests and sadly we see
many failing the tests by capitulating with enemies of the
Gospel. Could it be that they are seeking the favor and
approval of men rather than the approval of God?

Many are praising John Paul II for being a great spiritual leader.
But why give such honor to the head of an apostate church which
keeps over a billion people in spiritual darkness. While he never
claimed to be God, he took pleasure in being addressed with
titles reserved for the triune God alone. He usurped the title
"Holy Father" from God the Father, "The Head of the Church"
from the Lord Jesus Christ and "The Vicar of Christ" from the
Holy Spirit, who Jesus promised to send in His place.

The pope said he represented Jesus Christ, yet he lived in stark
contrast to the Savior who had no place to lay His head. He
denied Jesus was man's Creator by teaching evolution is true.
On several occasions he denied that Jesus was the only way to
the Father. When he addressed Muslim leaders, he said there is
"a common spiritual bond that unites us." In 1999 he denied the
blood of Jesus was the only purification for sin by awarding a
plenary indulgence for anyone who quit smoking or drinking
alcohol. John Paul is acclaimed as a great moral leader, yet
he failed to discipline American Bishops for tolerating the
wicked sexual abuse of deviant priests.

One thing is certain--the pope knows the truth now. I believe
he is experiencing what the rich man in Luke 16 endured. Both
of them dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in splendor
every day. When the rich man died and found himself tormented
in the flames of Hades, he begged the Father to send someone
to tell his family the truth so they would repent and not end up
in the same place. The pope may now be making the same request.

The passing of John Paul II opens up a tremendous opportunity
for Christians to talk about spiritual issues. We must speak the
truth in love and proclaim the Gospel with clarity and completeness!
We must also earnestly contend for the faith against everything
that stands opposed to God's word. May God help us to be faithful
in these times of great deception and compromise!

Mike Gendron
www.pro-gospel.org


3 posted on 12/28/2005 10:12:02 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
Year after year he was the most loved and admired man in the world, but because he was blinded by the prince of this world, he never saw the light of the gospel or the glory of Christ.

Hey wow...Mike Gendron has been given the power to infallibly determine the state of someone's soul. Way cool.

Had he been a devoted follower of Jesus Christ he would have been hated and persecuted by the world

I think he was, Mike my friend. You just weren't paying attention. He was loved by the Godly and despised by the reprobate.

ItsOurTimeNow, nothing personal but this was really a titanically stupid post. The piece that heads off this thread was at least respectful in its disagreement. That anyone would have the temerity to question JPII's devotion to Christ is...well...insanity of the highest order.

4 posted on 12/28/2005 10:39:31 AM PST by Claud
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To: Claud

>>That anyone would have the temerity to question JPII's devotion to Christ is...well...insanity of the highest order<<

Many say the same thing of those who question other religious leaders, like Billy Graham. Who also placated to the universalist crowd by suggesting that Christ is not the only way to obtain salvation.

What elevates John Paul above you or I, in terms of belief? We're all men, and thus fallible. It's dangerous business to place mortals on such a high, unquestionable, untouchable pedestal.


5 posted on 12/28/2005 10:47:38 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
I am not Catholic, or even a fan of JPII, but I still think that article is remarkably vile. The lead sentence alone-"I grieve for John Paul II who gained the whole world but forfeited his soul."-assumes knowledge of the eternal state of another and is the height of presumption. The life and testimony of JPII give us no evidence that he is not at home with our Lord.

If you must contend with Catholics over doctrine, do it respectfully, with scripture. These sort of hateful follies change no minds and only serve to injure the Body of Christ.

6 posted on 12/28/2005 10:53:26 AM PST by jboot (Faith is not a work)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
May God help us to be faithful in these times of great deception and compromise!

Well, at least there was something of use in that long "gem".

Regards

7 posted on 12/28/2005 11:10:33 AM PST by jo kus
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
It's dangerous business to place mortals on such a high, unquestionable, untouchable pedestal.

It's also dangerous business to issue judgements on the state of other men's souls. Last time I checked, that was God's prerogative.

8 posted on 12/28/2005 11:16:43 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

Gee, that is hardly judgmental at all. Judging the state of a man's soul. Now that is Biblical.

Especially given the fact he IS objectively the Vicar of Christ--Peter on earth. No, don't worry. Spreading stuff like this won't come back to haunt you. Keep on doing it. See where it will get you.

The one thing we CANNOT judge, according to Sacred Scripture, is the final judgment of a man's soul. But go ahead. Keep it comin'if you feel so inclined. What a great example to the world of Christian unity.

Now I am becoming more certain where the anti-Christ exists, and it is NOT in Rome.


9 posted on 12/28/2005 11:31:37 AM PST by Mershon
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; jboot
Many say the same thing of those who question other religious leaders, like Billy Graham.

And I would say the same thing of them as well. You say JPII and Billy Graham placated the universalist crowd and said Christ is not the only road to salvation. That's totally wrong--neither of those eminently respectable men said any such thing. If you have any evidence to the contrary, by all means show us where.

Second of all, I have been and will be critical of some things JPII did. The dogma of infallibility is very limited in its scope, and Catholics are free to think the Pope is totally out to lunch on a number of issues that don't touch upon the doctrine delivered once and for all to the saints. So there's no pedestal here.

10 posted on 12/28/2005 11:44:07 AM PST by Claud
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To: jboot

Thank you kindly for your eminent sensibility! :)


11 posted on 12/28/2005 11:44:37 AM PST by Claud
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To: Claud

http://www.seekgod.ca/deceptions.htm
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.html

Ecumenalism is to be watched closely.


12 posted on 12/28/2005 12:09:50 PM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: Claud

No need to thank me, although I appreciate it. I take Christ at His word when He tells us that "he who is not against us is for us". However I may feel about the theology of the RCC and the popes, they affirm Christ and Him crucified before an unbelieving world. For this reason alone I wouldn't dare to slander them.


13 posted on 12/28/2005 12:22:00 PM PST by jboot (Faith is not a work)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: jboot

Right. And we have enough that separates us that we do not have to go around inventing more and beating straw men to a pulp.


15 posted on 12/28/2005 1:10:46 PM PST by Claud
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
Ecumenalism is to be watched closely.

Of course, and were you to travel in the circles I travel in, you would see how furiously this debate rages within the Roman Church after Vatican II.

And I stress again, neither Billy Graham nor the Pope said anything to the effect that Christ was no longer necessary for salvation.

16 posted on 12/28/2005 1:16:46 PM PST by Claud
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To: topcat54

Bump for a later read


17 posted on 12/28/2005 1:33:46 PM PST by Gamecock ("It is better to think of Church in an alehouse than to think of an alehouse in Church" Luther)
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To: topcat54; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...

“This will be one of the highlights of my presidency, to have been at this great ceremony,” Bush said, according to a White House release. “I knew the ceremony today would be majestic, but I didn't realize how moved I would be by the service, itself; by the beautiful music. And then I think the thing that struck all our delegation most intensely was the final scene of the plain-looking casket . . . being carried and held up for the seal to be seen, and then the sun pouring out.”
Bush Talks about Jesus, Holy Father with Reporters on Flight Home from JPII Funeral

President Bush is the first sitting US president to attend a pope's funeral.


May 28, 2002

Pope John Paul II Greets U.S. President Bush at the Vatican in Rome

18 posted on 12/28/2005 1:53:22 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: Claud

Did you read the links I posted?

GRAHAM: "Yes, it is, because I believe that I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

No Bible, no knowledge of Christ, just a heart-felt yearning and living a life apart from the rest will save?


19 posted on 12/28/2005 1:58:28 PM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: jboot

Thank you also for your kind words friend. May Christ's Peace be upon you and yours in the coming New Year!

Kind regards,
F


20 posted on 12/28/2005 2:07:17 PM PST by Frank Sheed ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." ~GK Chesterton.)
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To: NYer

Speaking as a former lutheran, now attending RCIA classes. Pope JP2 is main reason I investigated the Catholic church. Now I am a member.


21 posted on 12/28/2005 2:09:09 PM PST by TXBSAFH ("I would rather be a free man in my grave then living as a puppet or a slave." - Jimmy Cliff)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

At the time, I too, belonged to another "Christian" mailing list. After the second e-mail of this type, I unsubscribed.


22 posted on 12/28/2005 2:36:39 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Mershon
Excellent Point!!
23 posted on 12/28/2005 2:53:15 PM PST by rzeznikj at stout (Denial is a river in Egypt...)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
GRAHAM: "Yes, it is, because I believe that I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

No Bible, no knowledge of Christ, just a heart-felt yearning and living a life apart from the rest will save?

According to the Catholic doctrine of Baptism of Desire, a person who sincerely desires to live a good life, and who WOULD receive the sacrament of Baptism if they knew about it, CAN be saved.

Catholics don't believe that God autmatically rejects those who never heard of Him. Even they have a chance.

24 posted on 12/28/2005 3:31:14 PM PST by JoeFromSidney (My book is out. Read excerpts at www.thejusticecooperative.com)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
I've never read such bitterness and anger in all of my admittedly brief life.

Woe to us when we call what is good, evil. Mr. Gendron would condemn a man who was celibate for the sake of the Kingdom, who chose to die without a penny to his name, who himself condemned no man, not even his own assassin ...

Mr. Gendron needs to receive Jesus into his life. Let's pray that the Lord will come and soften his hardened heart.
25 posted on 12/28/2005 3:37:16 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Frank Sheed

Thank you Frank. May His blessings be upon you and yours as well.


26 posted on 12/28/2005 4:03:50 PM PST by jboot (Faith is not a work)
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To: Lilllabettt

Mr. Gendron claims to be a former Catholic. Those are the worst.


27 posted on 12/28/2005 4:35:13 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

Are you trying to be obnoxious, or are you just ignorant?

Calling yourself a Christian is a bit of a stretch, lady.


28 posted on 12/28/2005 4:38:06 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: TXBSAFH
Pope JP2 is main reason I investigated the Catholic church. Now I am a member.

Welcome Home! ... to you and your beautiful family! (keep those pictures of the twins coming :-)

29 posted on 12/28/2005 4:44:06 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: TXBSAFH
Pope JP2 is main reason I investigated the Catholic church. Now I am a member.

Welcome Home! ... to you and your beautiful family! (keep those pictures of the twins coming :-)

30 posted on 12/28/2005 4:46:07 PM PST by NYer ("Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: AlaninSA

That venom spew is posted on Mr. Gendron's website.


31 posted on 12/28/2005 5:12:42 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Mershon; All

>>Judging the state of a man's soul. Now that is Biblical.<<

And Papal Idolatry - or Popery, is?

I notice that in all the responses, there carries an overall bend towards attacking the writer of the article, as well as the poster who posted it, but no real defense of the points that Mr. Gendron made. No scriptural exegesis to prove him wrong. No attempts to refute his claims that the Pope claimed that Christians and Muslims are united by the same spirit.

I see a lot of rage and venom, but very little hard defense.


32 posted on 12/28/2005 6:34:02 PM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Hail Him who saved you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of All")
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To: Jaded

Yes, and she repeated it.

What kind of nutcase believes that garbage? Come on, what's next? Posting Jack Chick tracts?

Honestly, how anyone can follow that kind of cultish form of Protestantism is beyond me.


33 posted on 12/28/2005 6:57:47 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
I, for myself, do not often argue Scriptural exegesis with Protestants. Catholics and Protestants have different interpretations of the same texts, and many Protestants even disagree with each other concerning the interpretation of some very important parts of Scripture. So we often end up talking past each other. There is a fatal logical error inherent in the philosophical basis of Sola Scriptura, and I can point it out if you like. But until we get past that, quoting Scripture at one another is a waste of time.

The paths of authentic Ecumensim are very beautiful indeed. In one manner of speaking, all men who earnestly seek the face of God are "united in spirit." You must understand... the Catholic understanding of salvation does not restrict the power of the Mercy of God, and does not make it dependent on men to perform particular acts of faith. So, we don't know if there are any Muslims in Heaven. If there are, the Lord Jesus has brought them there, through the power of His Sacrifice on the Cross, by some merciful method not revealed to us.

In polite society, it is considered in poor taste to speak ill of the dead. That is the real reason most Evangelicals were not outspoken about their theological opinions when John Paul died. It was not because they were hypnotized by the beauty of music or the simplicity of the Pope's coffin. It was because they were decent human beings, and we are trying to have a civilization here.
34 posted on 12/28/2005 7:30:45 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: topcat54
I agree there should be a honest discussion on the media and historical voices of religion in America.
What role does a multicultural religious society of different faiths play in the future shape of America? My hope is that we see more people from different conservative faiths posting on this form. Keep up the good posts.
35 posted on 12/28/2005 8:01:58 PM PST by FreeRep
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To: AlaninSA
My brother does. It's actually very frightening. He became a fundamentalist Baptist years ago. He dropped out of it for about 18 years and decided to go back when his daughter who was 15 at the time, expressed interest in becoming Catholic. He was completely obnoxious when she was baptised 2 weeks before she turned 16. For about the last 4 years he's gone to his fundamentalist "no one but us" Church. He doesn't even speak to my mother, who raised his daughter because he was too busy partying, because she's just a pagan. He assured us quite often that everyone who wasn't in the IBF Once Saved Club would go to hell. A more unChristian hateful bunch of Christians I've yet to meet.

... that's not to say there aren't Catholics who are unChristian in their behavior.

36 posted on 12/28/2005 8:51:04 PM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Lilllabettt
If there are, the Lord Jesus has brought them there, through the power of His Sacrifice on the Cross, by some merciful method not revealed to us.

Well said.

37 posted on 12/28/2005 9:07:38 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: ItsOurTimeNow

What point, pagan pageantry? Point me to a point made in the article, so I may refute it. His baseless opinions are not "points." Learn how to think critically.


38 posted on 12/28/2005 9:14:07 PM PST by The Cuban
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To: topcat54
John Paul II Gallery of Pictures [Photos]
39 posted on 12/28/2005 9:22:51 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Jaded

We can pray for your brother.


40 posted on 12/28/2005 9:24:55 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: topcat54
I heard few authentically Protestant voices challenging the papacy on historical or theological terms.

The papal funeral was probably not the time or the place to be quoting the original version of the Westminster Confession.

At the present time, the modern pre-mil dispensationalists are a bigger threat to the reformed churches than are the followers of the Bishop of Rome.

41 posted on 12/28/2005 10:47:14 PM PST by PAR35
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To: topcat54
After observing the postponement of a royal wedding and the presence of the Prince of Wales, the prime minister and the Archbishop of Canterbury at the papal funeral, one Oxford historian declared, “Protestant England is dead.”

well, after Genie Robinson, I guess it is.
42 posted on 12/28/2005 11:32:55 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Claud
Mike Gendron has been given the power to infallibly determine the state of someone's soul.

yes, the power to forgive sins too, I guess /sarcasm
43 posted on 12/28/2005 11:49:21 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Mershon

The anti-Christ was Mahound and the devil resides in a black tent in Mecca


44 posted on 12/28/2005 11:52:28 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
Many say the same thing of those who question other religious leaders, like Billy Graham

well, I'm Catholic, but I have the greatest respect for Billy Graham. I think he's conducted himself with honor and is not comparable to what I consider sham preachers like Benny Hinn (note: personal opinion here)
45 posted on 12/28/2005 11:56:52 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Jaded

At times it seems to me that many Christian groups seem to define themselves purely in the negative sense as not Catholics.


46 posted on 12/29/2005 12:21:35 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Jaded
more unChristian hateful bunch of Christians I've yet to meet.

oh, you haven't met "Born-against" have you? I have an aunt who's in that grouping and I went for one of their Christmas "services" -- the entire sermon was a railing against the Catholic Church and no message on scripture or God (except saying that God hated the Church). She used to keep asking everyone if we were saved but stopped when we started to answer: "Yes. We were saved through God and through His teachings to our Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church -- are YOU Saved?"

That's when she came up with the "I will leave this house and shake the dust off my shoes" bit (it kind of lost meaning after th 5th time)
47 posted on 12/29/2005 12:26:46 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Lilllabettt
It was because they were decent human beings, and we are trying to have a civilization here.

True and that's much appreciated by us Catholics -- we have differences but we can still have grace.
48 posted on 12/29/2005 12:27:49 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
No Bible, no knowledge of Christ, just a heart-felt yearning and living a life apart from the rest will save?

Would you be jealous if Jesus decided saved one like this? Well, maybe that's a good thing for you - if it doesn't cause hate or anger at them perhaps.

49 posted on 12/29/2005 3:02:44 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
I grieve for John Paul II who gained the whole world but forfeited his soul. Year after year he was the most loved and admired man in the world, but because he was blinded by the prince of this world, he never saw the light of the gospel or the glory of Christ. Had he been a devoted follower of Jesus Christ he would have been hated and persecuted by the world. I also grieve for the many who have been deceived by this pope and his religion. It breaks my heart to see so many professing Christians who cannot discern truth from error and genuine Christianity from its counterfeit.

*That author is too dim-witted to realize he drafted a self-refuting paragraph

50 posted on 12/29/2005 4:28:37 AM PST by bornacatholic
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