Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
>>That should send some chills up the spines of any unsaved visitors.<<
What better thing for them to hear than:
"...and sinners plunged beneath that flood,
loose all their guilty stains"?
Versus
"We love you Lord, we love you, we love you" x12
Considering that you can't love the Lord properly unless your sins have been washed away.
See, that's the whole thing right there - I've been to the seeker churches, I've sat in on the sermons, and ALL of what I've heard has been the very simple message of "Trust in Jesus". Now, while that phrase is very sound for the believer, it does nothing to the unsaved, who doesn't know WHY he needs to trust Jesus, nor what he's being saved FROM.
The sermons I heard only spoke of calling on Jesus in times of need - like He's some sort of ATM. No mention of sin, no mention of the vileness that seperates us from God, no mention of the weight of our iniquities - just luv luv luv huggy huggy luv luv cotton candy theology.
Do you see what I'm saying? If the message is, "You're ok, but Jesus can make you better!", then why should the unsaved listen to anything beyond hearing that he's ok? If he's ok, why does he need to be any better?
People need to be convicted of their sin, not smokescreened with spiritual Similac.
>>Is your church in a rural area surrounded by cornfields?<<
No, it's about a half-mile from a huge industrial park. Why do you ask?
Professor.
You need to get out more.
Out *where*, Marlowe, since you seem to know so much about me.
Have you looked at the Reformation Study Bible? Theological notes and commentary by R.C. Sproul - I've found it quite edifying.
>>Also includes thos who think every event that occurs is the result of god's direct will.<<
God is not Sovereign over His creation?
If more pastors realized that they are not called to be a friend, but a Shepherd, then this apostacy would not run so deep.
Imagine yourself as an unsaved and uninformed and naieve agnostic that does not know a word of Christian lingo and who has been invited to a church located in a cornfield 20 miles from civilization. You haven't been in a church since you were knee high to a grasshopper, maybe not at all.
You go into the old wooden church building and are met by a bunch of solemn faces who look at you like you are some outsider. You look around at the altar and above the altar you see some kind of tub and you have no idea why they would have a tub in a church. You take your seat. Then the service begins with these formerly solemn faced people erupting into a wide eyed and joyous chorus of "There's a fountain filled with blood." Some of the children tug on their parents' arms and point at you, the stranger in their midst.
Now honestly wouldn't that send chills up your spine?
Well, you certainly haven't described my church in the least, but I do thank you for proving me right.
You've placed feelings and environment as stronger than the Word of God.
Emotions don't save, old wood doesn't save, pop-christian music doesn't save, being in the right environment doesn't save. Only Christ saves, and He's not beholden to any method other than the sound preaching of His Word. "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
Isaiah 55:10-11:
"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
Christians aren't responsible for the comfortable feelings of newcomers, they're responsible for the sound preaching of God's word.
That being said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find true believers who are not welcoming to newcomers. The love of Christ being in us, we understand fully well the condition of the unsaved, and we are joyed when someone is drawn into fellowship with us.
God's sovereignty. Obviously that person is attending that morning for a reason. God has drawn them that morning according to His good pleasure. Why would any believer NOT be happy about that?
You seem to have a pretty dour misconception of anyone who's not party of the Happy Clappy set. Have you used the phrase "The Frozen Chosen" within the last month? :-)
Oh, and you still haven't told me *where* I should get out to.
Conversely, you are spiritually bankrupt. You just know that you are broken and don't know how to go about fixing yourself. You venture into a modern "worship facility" and are bombarded with flashing lights and everyone worked into a frenzy singing the umpteenth go-round of the latest market driven happy clappy praise chant. This totally clashes with what you are feeling. This is not where you are, you stumble out in a confused daze.... How is that any different from your scenario?
My scenario was an (apparently feeble) attempt at humor.
Maybe a comedy club.
Your scenario is very apt, GC.
In my days as a heathen, I was invited to my brother's "Born Again" worship center (none DARED call it a church!), and went willingly.
When they were all up singing and dancing in the aisles, some crying hysterically, some shouting like they had Tourettes' Syndrome, I felt obligated to "join in" and act the same way. No one else was standing still and heck, I didn't want to be the only one, so I acted the part.
My brother and several of his friends saw me acting as the rest of them and saw this as a "sign" of conversion, and began pressing me for months to return and join them in all manner of 'studies" (read: social hour) and 'events' (usually block parties where only the church members showed up to applaud each other for doing such a good work). When I declined and showed no interest, I was met with hostility. "What, you come to worship with us, and then don't do anything to follow-up? What's wrong with you?", etc.
A terrible experience to say the least, but looking back on it with new eyes, I can see the deception as clear as crystal.
With regard to Rick's personal life I probably wouldn't call him apostate. However his teachings are so vague that they allow heresy to flourish, and error if left unchecked gives rise to further error. (e.g. a little leaven leavens the whole lump) I cannot judge him by his personal life since I have no access to that. I judge his teachings. He is sorely mistaken, and refuses correction because he has not publicly realized his error and fixed it. I can also judge that.
I have stayed up many nights, for months, into the wee hours crying and praying, and physically trembling before God before I took that step with complete assurance, and before I rebuked my own pastor for his cavalier, deceptive, politicking attitude and behavior.
Define Fundamentalists.
I have far less problem with them than with 'permissivists.'
Truthfully, I know that Rick is far more conservative than he says publicly. That is a political facade, and I look at it as virtually synonymous with cowardice as well. John Macarthur has written a book _Ashamed of the Gospel_ which I think applies quite well.
go to www.seekersensitive.com and post your story on the forum there. It's a great place. Not too well- known ...yet
You have been delphi'd!
see: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b321093ce6.htm
Also this one from a public school website: http://www.illinoisloop.org/committees.html Shows how the technique is used to build consensus and eliminate dissenters. People use it all the time and don't even consciously realize it, it's so ingrained in our society.
Another good resource is Dean Gotcher's "Diaprax" seminar
http://christianunplugged.com/klenck_report.htm
which is similar -- exposing the Delphi method at work, how the group works to make you go along with it against your principles.
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