Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)

Zenit News Agency ^ | January 15, 2006 | Ilaria Morali

[sirchtruth]

Lost sheep without a shepherd, they cut themselves off the living Church, and gradually lost the understanding of the subset of the Canon that they once perhaps had.

Who is the shepard?

[sirchtruth]

If you spoke in terms of scripture I might be able to understand what you're trying to point out, but your post is the whole point of my query and a great example of Catholics focusing on extraneous stuff that has NOTHING to do with leading people to Christ, only to Catholicism.

I'm not saying what you wrote is bad, or wrong, it would just take a theologian or a philosopy professor to understand it. Compare what you wrote to John 3:16.

[sirchtruth]

Please continue to point out any time Catholic theologians do not base their theology or answers on Scripture.

In my experience this is MOST of the time. I'm not trying to be coy or sarcastic here, what every Catholic should ask themselves is this:

Why am I a Catholic?
What has the church taught me about God's word?
Does it jive with what the Holy Spirit teaches me?

[jo kus]

What has the church taught me about God's word? Does it jive with what the Holy Spirit teaches me?

Did Christ promise the Holy Spirit to each and every Christian to determine correct doctrine, or to the Apostles? I believe the Scriptures clearly point out that we are to obey those in authority over us, not subject their teachings to our own ideas of truth.

Regards

[redgolum]

On a lighter note, I wonder if the argument of invincible ignorance works for speeding tickets?


No. Neither does the temporary insanity defense.

[sirchtruth]

Did Christ promise the Holy Spirit to each and every Christian to determine correct doctrine, or to the Apostles?

Basically if you are sincerly honest Christ promised the Holy Spirit for decernment to all who accept him. If Christ is in us, what or who do you need other than Christ as a guide?

[Convert from ECUSA]

[Mad Dawg]

I'm going to try like this:

Even good works are a gift. Merit is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift.

And I am (I think) an orthodox Catholic.

[dangus]

John 3:16:

"God so loved the world that he sent his only Son, that whosoever shall believe in him shall have eternal life."

Where does that say anything about whether a pagan can be saved? I've heard universalists point to that verse as an argument that everyone is saved, but that is plainly a heresy, refuted in many laces within the bible.

>> If you spoke in terms of scripture <<

I presumed a basic bible literacy when I referred to Naomi, Cyrus, Moses, etc. Are you really incapable of finding out where in the bible the righteousness of these people is hailed?

>> I might be able to understand what you're trying to point out, <<

If the more complex reasons to spread God's word are too incomprehensible, the first should be simple enough: "Jesus told us to." And again, I presume a basic bible fluency enough that you could (a) recognize that that IS in the bible (b) if for some reason, you needed chapter and verse, you could find it with the help of a concordance.

>> focusing on extraneous stuff <<

It's actually none of our business whether a pagan might be saved. What is our business is that we are morally obligated to preach the gospel to that pagan. So, actually what I did is I brought the conversation from an abstract issue to what we are commanded by Jesus to do. And I don't think you can get simpler in logic than "Jesus told us to."

But because some intellectuals like to know more of the why, I gave further reasons.

>> NOTHING to do with leading people to Christ, only to Catholicism. <<

Again, what I did was shift the issue from an abstract discussion to one which defines our moral obligations. And I never mentioned one word about Catholicism. But since the Church is the body of Christ, and Catholicism is the church which was founded by Christ, bringing someone to Catholicism is identical to bringing someone to Christ. So had I focused on bringing people to Catholicism, I would still have been bringing people to Christ.

[dangus]

>> From your fingers to God's ears! <<

Dn't go sticking your fingers in God's ears!

Hehehehe :^)

[dangus]

Well said, klossg.

It's amazing the way people quote chapter and verse as if the bible were an instruction book. I cited bible story after bible story, and sirchtruth attacks me for basing my argument on the Catholic church instead of on the bible! Chapter and verse are a fourth century invention of St. Jerome!

The form of the bible is not a list of instructions. Maybe about 0.02% of the bible actually is instructions. The form of the bible is a set of true stories which demonstrate the relationship between God and Man. Pulling statements out of characters' mouths out of context is a perversion of the bible, one which we are warned the devil is quite fond of.

[dangus]

>> I wonder if the arguemnt of invincible ingorance works for speeding tickets? <<

I know you are only joking, but you hit on a good metaphor, because justice comes from God, and human justice is an imitation (albeit very pale) of divine justice.

If a man is zooming 65 MPH down a rural highway and he flies past a school zone (15 MPH), and strikes a child, he will be arrested. The judge will ask him, "Did you not see the speed limit sign?"

If the sign was cloaked by undergrowth, the man will show the judge that the sign could not be seen. The judhe may then ask, "Surely, you can know the law without being told. If you did not see the sign, you must know that it is not reasonable to drive past a school at 65 MPH.

If the man argues that the school was recessed on the property, and many trees were planted in front of it, and there was no crosswalk, the judge will set him free.

He will turn instead to the school administrator and say, "Why did you allow the overgrowth to conceal the sign? Why did you not paint crosswalks? Why was there no school guard on duty?" And the administrator will be sued, and will be found liable for the child's death.

I can't remeber chapter and verse, but I thinnk this is from Ezekiel (paraphrased): "If you admonish a person for his sins, and he continues in his sinfulness, he will suffer judgment. You shall have your reward. But if you do not admonish the sinner, he shall be innocent of his sin, and you shall be held guilty for his transgressions."

[SoothingDave]

I am unsure why anyone would want to reject summarily the thoughts and insights of the multiple generations of believers who came before us.

Even when they parade as virtues of light, but go against the precepts of scripture?

Yes, thank you for demonstrating what I mean by "reject summarily."

SD

[netmilsmom]

There are hundreds of Catholic Apologetics sites. In fact if you are seriously looking go to the Forums on http://www.Catholic.com and try the threads of Apologetics or the Non-Catholic religion threads.

Both can answer your questions.

[SoothingDave]

If you spoke in terms of scripture I might be able to understand what you're trying to point out, but your post is the whole point of my query and a great example of Catholics focusing on extraneous stuff that has NOTHING to do with leading people to Christ, only to Catholicism. I'm not saying what you wrote is bad, or wrong, it would just take a theologian or a philosopy professor to understand it. Compare what you wrote to John 3:16.

Why is it that rank-and-file Christians of other sects can discuss this topic intelligbly, while to you the language is impenetrable?

You seem to think sophisticated discussion is evidence of sinfullness and error. Perhaps you should avoid threads discussing theology, since it is apparently an occasion of sin for you.

SD

[klossg]

In my experience this is MOST of the time.

I don't know if I should trust your experience at all because this was clearly not such a case. Who knows how many other times you have falsely read into what Catholic Theologians, Bishops, Popes or Priests have written or said.

Then right after you were corrected, you continue to dig at your fellow Christians (Catholics) with your "Catholic warning questions:"

"Why am I a Catholic?
What has the church taught me about God's word?
Does it jive with what the Holy Spirit teaches me?"

These are questions you would ask a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon or someone who has no idea what the Bible is for or who has a Bible with books written over the last century or two. I think you are trying to save the wrong people! Catholics and especially Catholic Theologians, Bishops, Popes and Priests read, study and teach the bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and studied God's WORD and continue to pray with the Bible. I have done this based on the teachings of the Catholic church. My wife and I read the Bible in our house with our 5 kids on a regular basis. By the way I have been a parishioner of 5 different Catholic churches in 3 different states and all are well connected to and based on the Bible.

My Church has taught me a ton about the bible and from the bible. If it didn't, I would wonder and look to Protestant churches to give me the Bible. Lay Catholics have moved more toward the bible over the centuries since the unfortunate Protestant breaks. And this is especially the case in the past 40 years (Vatican II). Lay Catholics have really moved to study and appreciate the Bible. But, Catholic Theologians, Bishops, Priests and Popes have always studied and prayed with the Bible and based their teachings on the Bible. As I am sure you are well aware, Catholic teachings have also been based on Tradition and the Fathers of the Church as well.

Thanks for your concern but you may want to concentrate on saving others instead of Catholics. We love the Bible and see the world through God's WORD very much like you.

You may want to consider the Catholic Church yourself because along with the Bible, it has the Mass. And in the Mass we receive the living WORD of God in the Eucharist. Every Mass is made up of the Liturgy of the WORD and the liturgy of the Eucharist. Daily as a community we read from the Old Testament and the New Testament. Also daily, we receive Christ into our bodies. The Catholic Church gets you close to Jesus and keeps you united like one bread both with the Bible and the Eucharist. This is all through the grace of God. And we praise God and thank him for giving this all to us out of his complete mercy and love. Without Christ, His WORD and His Eucharist we Catholics have nothing. Why has he saved us? We are not worthy, so we cling to our Catholic faith, the Bible and the Eucharist like you cling to your faith.

May the Triune God keep you and love you all the days of your life!

[jo kus]

Basically if you are sincerly honest Christ promised the Holy Spirit for decernment to all who accept him. If Christ is in us, what or who do you need other than Christ as a guide?

Was Calvin a sincere person? Was Luther a sincere person? Were the founders of the various Protestant denominations sincere? And yet, they disagree on ESSENTIAL doctrine. Apparently, good will and honesty do not necessarily lead to truth.

The gift of discernment is not the gift to judge the contents of the deposit of faith. If you will note the Pastorals, for example, Paul speaks of a deposit of teachings given - and he expected for that deposit to be kept unchanged. It was not subject to the whims of culture or the people. Discernment is more properly defined as determining God's Will for us in our lives, in particular, identifying an event and prayfully figuring out what God wants from us. It has nothing to do with interpreting Scriptures apart from the Church.

Do you get the impression that Paul desires a plethora of different Gospels to be preached, based on the individual feelings and "discernment" of Christians?

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:6-8)

No, despite what our society tells us about being individualistic, etc., the SCRIPTURE doesn't tell us that. It tells us to follow the Gospel GIVEN to us (not how WE interpret it). Christianity is a REVEALED religion, not a philosophy where WE determine what seems right or deny what WE determine seems wrong.

Christ is in us guiding us, but it doesn't follow that He reveals to us individually correct doctrine. That sort of protection is given to the Church, not individually. Another thing to note, of course, is that humans are STILL fighting against the flesh (as Paul notes in Romans 7). Thus, can we really know what is from Christ and what is from ourselves, when it comes to whether it is feasible to baptize infants?

Regards

[Claud]

Why would one presume to limit whither the Spirit goes? What does one say about a pagan born in a non Christian land who lives his life in such a manner as to become Christlike without even knowing it?

Right. Indeed, how would it ever be possible for a pagan to be moved to enter the Church without a motion of the Spirit to bring him there?

Deny any movement of the Spirit whatsoever in the pagan, and the Christianity of conversion and theosis no longer stands.

[annalex]

St. Peter is the Shepherd (John 21:15-17)

[FourtySeven]

Good article.