[ovrtaxt]

When we walk into heaven, we are going to be surprised at who is- and isn't there.

Outside of Christ there is no salvation. If you are in Christ, by grace through faith, you are, by definition, the Church.

[Appalled but Not Surprised]

So what then of the righteous Jew? The righteous Muslim? The Hindu? The (gasp) righteous atheist?

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "When we walk into heaven, we are going to be surprised at who is- and isn't there...If you are in Christ, by grace through faith, you are, by definition, the Church."

Those are both good points. The only Scriptural picture we have of the Final Judgment is Matthew 25, and it portrays EVERYBODY, both the saved and the damned, as being surprised: "LOrd, when did we see you hungry?"

A little odd, but there it is...

And your other point is interesting, in terms of a definition of the Church. We Catholics believe that the true and original and only Church founded by Jesus Christ "subsists in" the Catholic Church. But that term "subsists in" is maybe (sigh) a little subtle? (And this is a notoriously hair-splitting Church, one that knows what "is" is!)

Bottom line, as our esteemed Orthodox brethren put it, "We know where the Church is; but we don't know where the Church is not."

That's one reason why the Church will formally canonize, but never formally "demonize." We know for sure that some people are in heaven because of their Catholic Faith, their life of heroic virtue, and confirmed by 2 miracles (these are the formal requirements for canonization.) But we daren't say for sure that anybody by name is damned. We just don't have God's perfect knowledge of the inner person, nor God's perfect justice, nor God's perfect will to save.

[Alamo-Girl]

Outside of Christ there is no salvation. If you are in Christ, by grace through faith, you are, by definition, the Church.

Beautifully said, dear ovrtaxt!

Nothing but the blood of Christ is necessary to salvation.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. – Galatians 2:20-21

Interestingly, I’m currently reading the Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XCI to the Bishops, Priests and Deacons. The subject is Christian love and he has touched on this point already (and I’m only on page 7 LOL!). The point being that God’s love for us is both agape and eros – that the reconciliation of justice and agape is in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - much like a man deals with an adulterous wife.

Perhaps he will also bring up the mystery of Christ and the church being a marriage.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. – Ephesians 5:30-32

[Conservative til I die]

Outside of Christ there is no salvation. If you are in Christ, by grace through faith, you are, by definition, the Church.

By whose definition? That's the rub. I say its Christ's as passed on by His Church. You say it's Christ's as passed on by ovrtaxt.