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To: whispering out loud

I disagree. In the Unam Sanctam thread, you yourself said: "I have gone to great pains to make it clear that I claim no denomination. I am a Christian who attends church because of the command to be aligned with other believers my beliefs my be viewed by as protestant beliefs, but my faith and values are not defined by you nor other men. My faith relies solely upon Christ, his grace, and his sacrifice. I have resigned my salvation to Christ as well as the control of my life. I have resigned myself to follow his commands, as well as to search and digest his word, this is how I understand his word." That is a pretty individualistic approach to me. Your stance would work if you had a direct pipeline to God to get His judgment on your daily learning, but I imagine you don't have that. In the meantime, the very fact that NO early Christian adopted this mindset as a basic rule of life should be most instructive to you.

I commend you again for your zeal for learning. But, as someone pointed out on that same thread, your self-study has led you to become an unwitting Nestorian. Mary IS the Mother of God. When you deny her that title, there are, among other things, soteriological consequences.

Be careful of the implications of your statement. By saying that Mary is *not* the Mother of God, you deny the entirely "mainstream" Christian doctrine of the hypostatic union. Jesus did not merely indwell a human body, and therefore was both a human person and a divine person. Nor did He have His human and divine natures comingled in such a way as to constitute one nature, a la monophysitism. He was a divine Person with both a human and a divine nature. Since His natures do, in fact, exist distinctly, yet inseparably, in one hypostasis, within the divine Person, Mary, giving birth to a divine Person, IS the Mother of God.

No Catholic or Orthodox or historically literate Protestant is going to offer a different understanding of Christ than that He was a divine Person with distinct human and divine natures. He was not merely a human person. To deny this is to be either a Monophysite (He had only a divine nature) or a Nestorian (He was both a human person and a divine person).

A main problem with Nestorianism is, if Jesus was two persons, which one was offered on the cross? If merely the human person suffered and died, then how could that death be sufficiently perfect to be a sacrifice for all men? Monophysitism is different but has a similar result: if Jesus had only a divine nature, then how could the Eternal Word really "become" a man, and how then could Jesus' sacrifice really be efficacious when He merely "took over" human flesh as a mere shell to put on the cross? Either, way, the God-Man Jesus did not die on the cross for our sins as the Church has held from the beginning.

As the Council of Ephesus stated in 431: Jesus is a divine Person with two distinct yet inseparable natures: human and divine. As such, Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer, or the Mother of God.

All of this is the result of your refusal to even read the early Church councils, simply because they are "not Scripture." If you are already a Nestorian as a consequence, what else do you believe that is not mainline, orthodox Christian belief? You see, my friend, you have demonstrated major gaps in basic understanding of Church history, doctrine and cultural surroundings (remember your assertion that Vulgate Latin needed to be translated for the common people) just in the last day, all because your only source of Christian information seems restricted to the Bible and a few myopic, agenda-driven websites.

If you cannot or will not attempt to grasp that the Church was given to us by Christ as a sure guide, "the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth" (1Timothy 3:15), intended as such throughout the age (Matthew 28:20), and that, throughout that time, it is authorized to clarify teaching through, among other means, ecumenical councils and its magisterial authority, then there is little more to be said. The discussion of invincible ignorance in that Unam Sanctam thread you were on will, I hope, apply to your situation. Only God can know. But I hope the prayers of your Catholic brethren here on FR will someday lead you to explore the fullness of the Faith, and render "I.I." a moot point in your case. Godspeed.



243 posted on 02/07/2006 8:20:58 AM PST by magisterium
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To: magisterium

Your explanation is insightful, and lucid and to the point!
Excellent Post!


251 posted on 02/07/2006 11:02:34 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
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To: magisterium
"Your stance would work if you had a direct pipeline to God to get His judgment on your daily learning, but I imagine you don't have that."

But I do, as do we all if we exercise it.

A) 2 Tim 2;15 Study to show thyself approved, a workman that need not be ashamed rightly dividing the "Word of God" It doesn't say rightly dividing the Catholic teachings, nor the teachings of the Pope.

B) James 1;5-6 "If anyone lacks wisdom let him ask of the Father who gives generously, and does not hold back." God gives us the wisdom we ask for.

C) 1 Cor 2;11-16 paraphrased states that if we have received Christ, then we have the spirit residing in us. If we have the spirit residing in us, then the spirit will teach us.

D) According to 1 Tim 2;5 We have a mediator in Christ himself. This means that we need no man to mediate for us.

This being said I do not dispute the need for a church family, I just dispute absolute power of the church to mediate, and or dictate for God. The church is comprised of men, and men are fallible, as am I and if someone shows me my fallacy using scripture, then I yield, but without scripture, I hesitate to yield to the teachings of any man.

In closing, we are able to be lead directly by God in studying his Holy scriptures, and we are accountable to check any teaching we have been brought for both accuracy, and relevancy.

I pray for you all the blessings Christ has in store for you, and I am done with this aspect of the conversation.

Blessings, and Grace.
298 posted on 02/07/2006 3:16:52 PM PST by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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