“He who grounds his faith on Scripture only has no faith”

pontifications ^ | 02-08-06 | Johann Adam Möhler

[Titanites]

In the early church here was no "special reverence" for the mass or the host. There were no pews, no kneelers and people wandered about fellowshipping during the service.

In his First Apology (A.D. 148-155), St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius explaining the practices and beliefs of Christians. St. Justin clearly and carefully explains the teachings of the second century Church regarding the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Read what he has to say:

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying: "Amen!". This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

And this food is called among us ukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Not only does this tract from 155 AD sound exactly like present day Catholic practice, it sure sounds like there was a whole lot of "special reverence" for the mass and the host going on.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

then knock it down so they can do their little victory dance.

Its not about that at all brother. To the contrary the Word of God teaches that ALL is vanity, so we must be careful on how what we say is not taken as such. We are not to be over joyed or humored by someones discomfort. This war, which must be won is against the enemy of our souls not against each other. We have a common enemy that comes as an angel of light to steal, kill and destroy [John 10:10]

I would point out also, what proceeds from our mouths or thoughts is the true intent and condition of our hearts. We are not to have or hold animosity in fueling discussion. Have a look at "Interested's" post in his delivery to me to draw a comparison. For myself, I believe I have come a long way in this regard. I give all the glory to Christ Himself.

The Lord Jesus took ALL offenses upon Himself to the Cross. So none of us have any right to be offended no matter what, differences of opinion aside.

The raging battle is also within ourselves, striving to come into agreement with God, to be like Christ. Thats why we must crucify our flesh and die daily to ourselves. We must decrease, so He can increase. I couldn't possibly have understood that before being born again, because the flesh is in constant war with the Spirit, and ones got to go. So much the reason why I see people scared when faced with reaching the end of themselves. The flesh is squirming to get out of church because its so used to being in the comfort of the bosom of the enemy (lifestyle unchanged)These people are often uncomfortable fearing the truth just might set them free. In the mean time they avoid the issue, maintain the status quo. Some remain comfortable in their religious environment too, disappearing in the crowd, pew sitters looking at their watches.

There must be a change, both in the renewing of ones mind and the condition of ones heart, then you realize you are not the same person you once were. Its being broken, bankrupt, void of all pride, knowing now you need God, so you bury yourself with Him in Baptism. Think of the Lord breaking you, only to put you back together to be part of His Body, "of Believers" You see, the Lord can't use perfect beings (prideful) He can only use "broken" beings. You are as a child again being reborn, which is what He wanted all along. God requires a broken spirit(pride), and a broken and contrite heart. Of course you must repent., and that may be cause for some pain. Not only for you, but many times those around you. But worry not, because that is God's way of refining you in the Fire of His Spirit. That's the real power, power to overcome sin's stronghold in your life. Just as the seeds of unrighteousness planted since adolescence, if left unchecked will germinate and grow into some vile iniquity. You will have no where to turn but to Christ and His Cross and leave it on His altar. He will take the ax to the root of this thing whatever it is. There will be no secrets hidden, all will be revealed either now or later. Some will choose instead to cover it up with religion, then ones living a lie and his religion is in vain. Those just soon come clean in the Blood of the Lamb. Because one will not be able to do so after death.

There is no staging area after death for refinement, your refinement is here, now. The Lord says buy your gold from Him, its been refined by fire. For it is written: (Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment

Everyone has some secret, even those who are suppose to be devout. If they say they don't, they have just committed another sin by lying. They think its hidden so well so deep, that doesn't God see it, but He does and sooner or later He will reveal it, by fire.

The Bible says: Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof [2 Tim 3:5.](He's talking about the church here) The power to be free from sins hold. I am a walking testimony of that freedom to my family and friends (they knew me before). His whole Word has taught me that we do not stop there. We go from glory to glory, the further we get, the closer to God we are. We are Justified, then Sanctified, then Glorified, the finish line of this course. But listen... there's a catch..your flesh cannot go..don't even attempt to force it in your worship because it's not going. This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality [1Cor 15:53].

You should have spent more time with your nose in the Cathechism. The point is worship.

With that being mentioned, I will leave you with this my brother (no sarcasm intended): from the words of Jesus to the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus informed her that "A time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem....True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:21,23)

At this point, Jesus was laying aside all formulas and places as a prerequisite for true worship. The temple is now our hearts. Worship is anywhere and any time praying in the Spirit and lifting holy hands towards God. (1 Tim 2:8 "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.") Any attempt to return to a form associated with the temple or to any form as a prerequisite is a violation of these words of Jesus.

Peace and God Bless

[Titanites]

I would point out also, what proceeds from our mouths or thoughts is the true intent and condition of our hearts.

In post #192 you claim that you grew up Catholic and went through 8 years of Catechism . Then you pretend that the following are Catholic beliefs so that you can refute them:

In post #192 that Catholics are re-killing Christ in the Mass and that it is a horrific work.

In post #192 that Catholics don’t have Faith in Jesus' one-time Sacrifice or that it had been sufficient

In post #204 that the Church sought to substitute something else in place of God's plan for Salvation.

In post #208 that the Mass is all about repayment of debt

Yes, someone who claims they were once Catholic and then proceeds to make-up out of whole-cloth things falsely claimed to be Catholic belief certainly causes me to wonder about the true intent and condition of their heart. Why don’t you spend a little time learning about actual Catholic belief instead of tearing down something that isn’t?

Then you make the assumption I haven’t found my way to His Way, the Way of the Cross. As you said, we are not to have or hold animosity in fueling discussion, but you sure don’t do a very good job of hiding yours.

[RnMomof7]

So you are claiming God's nature constrained him from making the bread and wine into His body and blood?

Was Jesus fully man ? Did Christ come down from heaven and become man? Do you believe that Christ was not completely man?

He had a human body and was willingly constrained by the limitations that all men have because of that body.

If Jesus multiplied His flesh it was a spiritual act and a spiritual reproduction of his flesh, it was not his actual flesh. He was wearing that flesh, that is the rub for you. If it was a spiritually produced flesh it was not his 'ACTUAL Flesh that would die on the cross.

[Titanites]

Was Jesus fully man ? Did Christ come down from heaven and become man? Do you believe that Christ was not completely man

Yes, Christ was fully man but also fully God.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how He fed the 5000 with five loaves and two fish and afterwards gathered twelve baskets full of left overs. The loaves weren't in Heaven, so they must have obeyed the laws of physics, right? How'd he do that? Don't tell me they were spiritual loaves and fishes and not physical ones.

[RnMomof7]

I'm still waiting for you to explain how He fed the 5000 with five loaves and two fish and afterwards gathered twelve baskets full of left overs. The loaves weren't in Heaven, so they must have obeyed the laws of physics, right? How'd he do that? Don't tell me they were spiritual loaves and fishes and not physical ones.

The scripture does not say he "cloned" the fish or that all the fish were of the same flesh of the original fish, it only tells us he blessed them and there was more than enough to feed the crowd, there is no indication it was the first cloning. ( actually a Priest I once knew told us in a sermon it was a gift of sharing , that in truth the others with hidden food simply shared it)

That miracle does not respond to my question to you. Even if the fish were "cloned" those that ate did not actually eat the flesh of the original fish.

If Jesus had "cloned " some of his flesh for the last supper, it was NOT the ACTUAL FLESH He wore as a man, it was not the flesh He would die in. It would have been a SPIRITUAL FLESH, not the flesh from His body as the REAL FLESH was was still living and the REAL BLOOD still coursing through his veins.

That is why there no questioning at the Last supper, they understood it was a metaphor from the pass over ( where they ate the meat of the slaughtered lamb as a rememberance)

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

It is His words that are life.

[RnMomof7]

Luther did not teach transubstantiation

Of the Supper of the Lord they teach the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

Luther believed and taught consubstanciation which is close to Calvin's teaching. He did not believe the accidents were changed in substance. He believed and taught that Christ was alongside the elements

[RnMomof7]

baptism is just as much the work of God as is faith

Could you show me where He INSTITUTED IT ? ( the definition of a Sacrament right? )

Actually it was a Jewish rite of conversion adapted by John to be a Baptism of Repentance and later by the by the new church as a sign of regeneration and rebirth.

It is a symbol of being Born Again

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[bremenboy]

I will be happy to answer you question if you will answer this one

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

I will be logging off in about 20 min I will respond tomorrow

[Mr. Lucky]

That may, or may not be true; however, Luther's personal beliefs are not synonymous with the confession of the Lutheran Church. The Augsburg Confession is. In any event, the purpose of my post was to point out that Lutherans believe the body and blood of Christ to be truly present in the communion host. While we view the significance of that presence somewhat differently than does the Roman Catholic Church, the presence is as miraculous in one church as it is in the other.

[Titanites]

The scripture does not say he "cloned" the fish or that all the fish were of the same flesh of the original fish, it only tells us he blessed them and there was more than enough to feed the crowd, there is no indication it was the first cloning.

So not cloning. Probably not physics, either. Maybe since He was God it was a miracle?

How did Jesus walk on water with his human body?

[Titanites]

It would have been a SPIRITUAL FLESH

Spritual flesh? Could you please point me to where Scripture talks about spiritual flesh.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?******


Can I assume that this is the John who was filled with the HOLY Spirit from his mother's womb yet felt HE needed to be baptized by Christ?
Who also said he came baptizing with water But HE (Christ) would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire!

Isn't it significant that the FIRST GENTILE SAVED received the HOLY SPIRIT before HE WAS BAPTIZED?
Can an unsaved person have the HOLY SPIRIT?
Inquiring minds still want to know.
When Cornelius received the HOLY SPIRIT Peter didn't ask God if they needed to be baptized. He asked his fellow men. "Hey fellows, should we baptize these Goys or not!" "Why not"! they said.
Then Peter had to defend HIMSELF before the Jerusalem council!

[conservonator]

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. It is His words that are life.

When Christ speaks of the flesh profiting nothing, He is referring to the works of man regarding the law and the rejection of His Gospel. He is preaching a new paradigm, a new and singularly efficacious path to eternal life. If you look further in the NT, you see that the discernment of Christ in the bread and whine is a test, and woe be unto him that partakes unworthily. To say that He was referring to His flesh in your cite is ridiculous, it puts Him in the position of deceiving some disciples in to damnation. The Lord dose not deceive to damnation.

[Titanites]

Luther believed and taught consubstanciation which is close to Calvin's teaching.

Luther's belief was nowhere close to Calvin's regarding the Eucharist. Calvin believed in a spiritual not physical presence in the sacrament. Luther believed in a substantial, or physical presence. Luther didn't believe in transubstantiation, but he still believed in the physical presence of Christ's body and blood, as you can see in this quote from Luther's Large Catechism:

Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!

Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink. And as we have said of Baptism that it is not simple water, so here also we say the Sacrament is bread and wine, but not mere bread and wine, such as are ordinarily served at the table, but bread and wine comprehended in, and connected with, the Word of God.

It is the Word (I say) which makes and distinguishes this Sacrament, so that it is not mere bread and wine, but is, and is called, the body and blood of Christ. For it is said: Accedat verbum ad elementum, et At sacramentum. If the Word be joined to the element it becomes a Sacrament. This saying of St. Augustine is so properly and so well put that he has scarcely said anything better. The Word must make a Sacrament of the element, else it remains a mere element. Now, it is not the word or ordinance of a prince or emperor, but of the sublime Majesty, at whose feet all creatures should fall, and affirm it is as He says, and accept it with all reverence fear, and humility.

With this Word you can strengthen your conscience and say: If a hundred thousand devils, together with all fanatics, should rush forward, crying, How can bread and wine be the body and blood of Christ? etc., I know that all spirits and scholars together are not as wise as is the Divine Majesty in His little finger. Now here stands the Word of Christ: Take, eat; this is My body; Drink ye all of it; this is the new testament in My blood, etc. Here we abide, and would like to see those who will constitute themselves His masters, and make it different from what He has spoken. It is true, indeed, that if you take away the Word or regard it without the words, you have nothing but mere bread and wine. But if the words remain with them as they shall and must, then, in virtue of the same, it is truly the body and blood of Christ. For as the lips of Christ say and speak, so it is, as He can never lie or deceive.

Luther took Christ's words in Scripture literally. For as the lips of Christ say and speak, so it is, as He can never lie or deceive.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

Had a whole page typed to you, spent some time on it. However, it all boils down to this: Biblical discussion where iron sharpens iron, that we may be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with grace, seasoned with salt.

More than likely the reason we all come here

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.[Prov 27:17]

To God only wise, be Glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen [Romans 16:27]

[Clay+Iron_Times]

That is why there no questioning at the Last supper, they understood it was a metaphor from the pass over ( where they ate the meat of the slaughtered lamb as a rememberance)

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

It is His words that are life.

Psalms 138:2: "...for thou has magnified thy word above all thy name."

[.30Carbine]

Hallelujah!

[PleaseNoMore]

I do believe everyone is capable of tapping into the Holy Spirit's wisdom. The same Holy Spirit that dwells in ALL believers is capable of teaching those He dwells in. I believe were it not possible to individually understand (have revelation of thus interpreting) the scriptures, God's word would not have said it was nor would He have commanded we understand them for ourselves.

Furthermore, I can find many scriptures indicating God's willingness to teach us of His ways, His word and His law. By what means does He teach us? By His Spirit. Just as the natural man understands the natural things so will the spiritual man understand the spiritual things. I don't care if you sit in a church pew 24/7 365 days a week. Unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you will NOT understand scripture. The Pope himself could "teach" you and your spirit would not be able to understand what God is saying. YOUR logic, your reasoning is not capable of discerning spiritual things. Unless the Spirit of God imparts His wisdom into your spirit and illuminates His word you cannot grasp it. If that isn't an individual teaching I don't know what is. Furthermore, we are compelled to ask God for wisdom. James 1:5 tells us if we lack wisdom to ask God, who gives generously to ALL without reproach, and He will give it.

We are to grow in the grace AND the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We, as individuals or corporately even, do not grow in either at the same rate.

I am not saying the individual is the final arbiter of the truth. Only God, certainly not any man or organization, holds that supreme position. He promises us His Spirit will lead us into ALL truth and I trust He is able to do so by whatever means necessary including teaching one individually.

In order for me to accept your position I would have to accept the Roman Catholic church as the one "true" church. I do not. I believe the church is the entire body of Christ made up of many people from various denominations and not limited to one organization. I DO believe in a catholic or universal church but not one lead by Rome.

[Rhadaghast]

You forgot one in your tag line:
Sola Pnemata