“He who grounds his faith on Scripture only has no faith”

pontifications ^ | 02-08-06 | Johann Adam Möhler

[RnMomof7]

This "word" is not the bible alone, but the preachings and teachings of the Apostles, which includes both oral and written teachings. Nowhere do I find that the Bible calls itself the only means of how God "speaks" to us. Another Protestant tradition.

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

What is the gospel and where is it found?

[RnMomof7]

And the same is certainly true of Peter with respect to Babylon in Mesopotamia. Nothing to place him there, except a "literal" reading of his letter.

So Peter may have lied and the Holy Spirit inspired it?

[magisterium]

How can you possibly find irredeemable fault in jo kus' statement here? The "word" is clearly NOT the Bible alone, but, as he says, it includes the teaching and preaching of the Apostles. It's a logical fallacy to say otherwise. Were there Christians before a word of the NT was written? Certainly. Were they, or were they not, evangelized with the "word of God"? They certainly were! By way of your answer to jo, one wonders how! You might object to the Catholic understanding of the Bible's role in the totality of revelation, insofar as unnecessary doubt has been sown over the last five centuries. But, for heaven's sake, don't let the argument devolve to absurdities. Your reply to jo kus' comments, within the context in which his comments were written, simply makes no sense, and totally misses as an answer to his statement.

[magisterium]

To engage in allegory or symbolism is NOT lying! Again I ask, do you "literally" expect that the Beast in Revelation 13 will physically appear as having ten horns and seven heads, or do you accept that the description is "symbolic" of something? Do you suppose that we are only to forgive our neighbor a grand total of 490 times, as Jesus, in Matthew 18:22 flatly says, or do you recognize that "seventy times seven times" is symbolic of forgiveness without numerical limit? Have you plucked out your right eye lest it cause you to sin, as Jesus tells you to do in Matthew 5:29? If you didn't, then you are not following the *literal* command of Christ Himself! If you did, then you have NO concept of symbolism or hyperbole. Either way, to insist on a hyperliteralism, as you seem to do here, is living proof that the Bible is not, apparently, quite as "perspicuous" to all people as Protestantism was founded to proclaim. I wish you well in your continued search for the fullness of the Truth.

[wmfights]

"People were reading the Bible for over one thousand years before the printing press. What on earth are you talking about?"
________________________________________
Who controlled the copies of scripture that were read?

Prior to the printing press how were the copies of Scripture
made? Do you think they were expensive? If so, the audience able to see, read and study them must have been limited to a small group relative to the population as a whole. After the printing press the cost to own the Bible must have been dropping dramatically making it available to a much broader audience. In other words the RC church no longer had a near monopoly on interpretation, since people could read the Bible for themselves.

It seems that the RC church has very little faith in their parishioners since they try to maintain a monopoly on how to interpret the Scriptures.
_________________________________
"We have people standing in the back of our church on Sundays, it is so full."

In Europe the RC Churches are museums. In the USA parishes are consolidating to maintain attendance. The parish schools are closing. The percentage of RC's as a percentage of total Christians is declining.

Do I think the RC church will disappear, NO! Do I think it will be surpassed by Protestant denominations, YES!

[topcat54]

So Peter may have lied and the Holy Spirit inspired it?

No, of course not. What I'm saying is that Peter may have been using "Babylon" in the same way that "Sodom and Egypt" and "Babylon" was used to identify Jerusalem in Revelation.

He may also have been using "Babylon" to referred to the dispersed church, just as the Jews were dispersed to ancient Babylon.

Or he could mean ancient Babylon.

What is odd to me is that while folks discount the tradition that places Peter in Rome at one point, they have no problem accounting for him being in ancient Babylon based on this verse alone.

It seems odd that the first pope could have made it to Babylon without someome taking note of the fact. :-) (That's a joke.)

[bornacatholic]

St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles

IV. ACTIVITY AND DEATH IN ROME; BURIAL PLACE

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.

St. Peter's residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.

That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ's prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not -- "And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God" (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter. St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: "The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark" (v, 13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; "Oracula Sibyl.", V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, xv; III, xl; VI, xiv); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Adv. haer., III, i). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

[InterestedQuestioner]

From my perspective, sola scriptura, the doctrine that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, means that the Bible must be read in isolation from and often against the historical records of what Christians actually believed in the first, second and third centuries. To me it does not mean that only the Bible is used for teaching and doctrine, but rather that traditions developed in the 16th century dictate how Scripture is interpreted.

I know of no denomination that actually follows the precept of Sola Scriptura. For example, most Christians who are affiliated with communities that have come into being since the 16th century would say that justification by faith alone is a critical doctrine--perhaps the critical doctrine, and reading of the Bible must start from that proposition. However, Scripture never actually says that we are justified by faith alone. So the hypothesis of justification by faith alone was a theological innovation of the 16th century that is not contained in Scripture, but many who hold to that belief insist that it holds equal standing with Scripture as a point of belief. From my perspective, asserting that one follows the Bible alone is not an accurate description of how one actually operates.

From your perspective, when do you understand when you say, "Scripture alone?"

[InterestedQuestioner]

"The doctrine of "church infallibility" was developed in the apostate church or the system now known as Catholicism...."

From Merriam-Webster Online

Apostasy:

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty

Your statement that the Roman Catholic Church apostatized is without merit. Please produce evidence that the Roman Catholic Church apostatized, or kindly refrain from making this false claim in the future.

-iq

[magisterium]

"It's interesting that the churches experiencing the greatest growth are evangelical in approach and place a emphasis on Bible study and the RC churches have largely become museum's"

Well, Protestant churches in Europe are even more moribund, as a rule. The Scandinavian countries are sure hotbeds of Christian fervor these days, I'm sure!

Your argument approaches the truth a little more closely here in the US, I suppose, since evangelical growth rates (conglomerating all of the different varieties of evangelicalism together) are, in fact, larger than Catholic rates. But so what? To equate the worldwide, relative health of Catholicism with its current state here in the US is highly parochial and shortsighted. The West in general is feeling the self-inflicted spiritual wounds of modernism, relativism and mediocrity. The REAL growth of the Church is in the Third world, particularly in Africa and Asia. We're more than holding our own there, I assure you!

Meanwhile, don't be too smug about evangelical growth here in the US. That growth is built largely on the foundation of Rapture Fever. When you guys find out that the Rapture, as you understand it, is NOT going to buy you a free trip out of the Tribulation, when it comes, I fear very much for the spiritual stamina of its adherents. Those whose faith is "brave" because there is an expectation that it won't need to be sorely tested will be in for a very rude awakening. Scripture speaks of a Great Apostasy. I have no doubt that there will be many Catholics involved in it. But I suspect the proportion of non-Catholics feeling betrayed by Rapture fever will apostatize in much higher proportion.

[jo kus]

What is the gospel and where is it found?

The Gospel is the Good News. It is the preaching of Jesus Christ. For example:

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel. (Mark 1:14-15)

I don’t find any mention of the Gospel being referred to as writings IN THE SCRIPTURES! The names of the authors of the Gospel, (Mark, Matthew, Luke, John) are not even part of the Scriptures! The Gospel is an ORAL PROCLAMATION as shown above in the beginning of Mark’s Gospel. Surely, you don’t think that Jesus was referring to the Gospel as a yet unwritten book???

It is only later, the Apostolic Traditions, that determined that the 4 books of the Evangelists were known as “Gospels”.

Thus, the “Word” refers to the preaching of the Apostles, both oral and written, not a FUTURE BOOK!!!

Regards

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Lets see, the bread is literal flesh because the Church says the bible says it was His body...."


The bread is bread, and flesh is flesh:

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matthew 26-28)

I believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ because Jesus said that it is.

[jo kus]

Who controlled the copies of scripture that were read?

What do you mean by control them? Do you think that mostly illiterate people really were going to spend a year’s wage to buy a set of scrolls or a codex full of teachings that they ALREADY were receiving from the oral teachings and proclamations at Mass?

After the printing press the cost to own the Bible must have been dropping dramatically making it available to a much broader audience. In other words the RC church no longer had a near monopoly on interpretation, since people could read the Bible for themselves

That cost, first of all, didn’t drop until AFTER the Protestant Reformation. When did Guttenberg run his first copy of the Bible again? Thus, the printing press didn’t start a big wave that led to the Reformation! It was led by person/persons who thought THEIR authority was superior to the Church established by Christ. And just because a book is widely circulated doesn’t mean that it is widely understood. The fact of the matter is that many people do NOT understand much of it, even some who claim to be Christians.

It seems that the RC church has very little faith in their parishioners since they try to maintain a monopoly on how to interpret the Scriptures.

You enjoy conspiracy theories, don’t you? The Church hierarchy believed that it was given a mission by Christ to continue to preach and teach (Jesus expected His Church to last for all time, not just during the life of the Apostles). Thus, considering that they felt they were the heirs to the Apostolic Succession, and that Christ would continue to protect His Church from the Gates of Hell and false teachings, it seems perfectly logical that this group of men felt THEY were in the best position to interpret it correctly. Now, you don’t have to believe that claim. But IF a group of men DID hold that idea, that concept, why the conspiracy theories? Those men really thought they were given a mission by God. Argue that as a fact or not. But you are being unfair to say that the Church had bad intentions in mind by being the true source of interpreting the Bible.

In Europe the RC Churches are museums

In Europe, Protestant “churches” are even worse. At least the Catholic Churches are worth looking at. The Protestant “churches” are the end result of the rape brought on by the “Deformation” of Church Architecture. Most Protestant “churches” in Europe might as well be an empty barn.

In the USA parishes are consolidating to maintain attendance.

That’s a money issue left over from paying millions and millions of dollars to people who claim to have been sodomized in the 1980’s and 1990’s by priests.

The percentage of RC's as a percentage of total Christians is declining.

You are incorrect. There is a constant “maintenance” in slight growth. The percentage of Catholics remains roughly the same in the US. And frankly, the US Catholic Church only represents like 8% of the world Catholics. Don’t get confused into thinking that what goes on here is indicative throughout the world. Notice how few other “scandals” occurred outside of the US?

Do I think the RC church will disappear, NO!

Well, that is good that you recognize that God is protecting the Church.

Regards

[Iscool]

That would explain why Paul does not address "To the Church at Rome" like say: To the Church at Corinth, or the Church at Thessalonica, or the Church at Ephesus

That's why the 'Church' says, "don't believe the bible"...

[InterestedQuestioner]

I think Jo Kus put that very nicely.

From my perspective, when hear Evangelical Christians refer to the "gospel" it seems they often mean a one line summary of the message of Christ. Perhaps in many cases what they mean is that one is justified by faith alone. Perhaps in other cases, they are referring to a description of a conversion experience that they believe implies a guarantee that they will go to Heaven when they die.

Scripture, however, was not written on a post-it note. There are four Gospel(s), Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which contain the essence of the Good News, that is the story of God's love for the world manifested in the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ. If you want to distill the Gospel down to a 3 sentence summary, I would say this does a fairly good job:

When the fullness of time had come, God sent His son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to ransom those under the Law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. As proof that you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His son to dwell in our Hearts, crying out, "Father!". So then we are no longer slaves, but sons through God, and if sons, then heirs through Jesus Christ. (paraphrase of Gal 4: 1-7)

[InterestedQuestioner]

"That's why the 'Church' says, "don't believe the bible"..."

A reference for your allegation, please. Can you show me a statement where the Church says not to believe the Bible?

[Clay+Iron_Times]

That's why the 'Church' says, "don't believe the bible"...

Jesus Christ our Lord is also known as "The Word"

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**First I don't have a church***

What's the name on the sign in front of the building you worship in?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[Bainbridge]

People who claim to have been sodomized?...
By that you are implying that there really was not an evil scandal and monstrous cover-up. It was just an extortion based on what hysteria?
I thought you were better than that.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

Apostasy:

• 1 : renunciation of a religious faith
• 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty

What is Apostasy?

• Its a departure from the faith
• Its giving heed to seducing spirits
• Its giving heed to doctrines of devils
• Its disobedience to God's Revealed Word!
• Its a Falling away from God's Prescribed Way of Worship!
• Its man living by the Imaginations of his own heart!
• Its twisting the scriptures for false beliefs!

1 Timothy 4:1 "...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils",

• It is a falling away from the TRUTH!

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first."

When will this Apostasy Occur?

• Paul says, it will occur before "that day"

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first..."

What "day" was Paul referring to?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "...by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him!"

2 Thessalonians 2:2 ...the day of Christ!"

How is this Final Apostasy Coming to Pass?

• A Strong Delusion from God!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion"

Why will God send a Strong Delusion?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "...because they receive not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved."

What will Play a Major Role in this Final Apostasy?

Deception!

2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...

1 John 2:8 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come, even now are there many antichrists; where by we know it is the last time."

All who Believe in Jesus are Children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and are Born of God! All in the world today, Jew or Gentile who believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and trust alone in His finished work at Calvary for salvation, become heirs of God by faith!

Our salvation was paid in full by Jesus' one final sacrifice for sins!

"For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

"For all have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God." Romans 3:23

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." Ephesians 1:7

Only the shedding of Jesus' blood atones for our sins.

"But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice forever...." Hebrews 10:12

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."