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To: conserv371
I once was a "pre-trib" person myself.
I'll give you a challenge. Find ANY reference to the return of Jesus Christ where there is a time reference that is not "After great Tribulation" or some similar statement. You will find none.
What you will find is that every time reference given is after the tribulation.

4 posted on 02/24/2006 9:20:13 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Where is it written that the church (believers) will wail and mourn at His second coming?

6 posted on 02/24/2006 9:59:25 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: GrandEagle

Who are the 24 elders 12 tribes of Israel (OT believers)and 12 apostles (church)?
Why would the church of Thessalonika think they had missed the rapture and need the explanation of II Thessalonians 2, if the next thing we should be looking for is the anti-christ. So if we are saying mid-trib or pre-wrath, why is the Tribulation like a week? There is the marriage supper of the Lamb. I feels it makes sense that the second coming of Christ is a perfect 7 year period starting with Christ coming for His bride in the air and then ending with Christ and His bride coming back to rule the earth.

11 posted on 02/24/2006 10:40:42 AM PST by conserv371
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To: GrandEagle; conserv371
Hello GrandEagle

I said today I was taking a break and just read, but then I decided to type this up for you

After the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 about the catching up of the Saints, both living and dead, he immediately tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verses 1-2, that this catching up of the Saints is what Jesus taught about, that He would come as a thief in the night.

"But the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Verse 4, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Paul then refers to the Great Tribulation

Verse 8 "But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation."

Verse 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Apostle Paul clearly teaches us in this chapter, that those who are left behind are appointed unto God's wrath, but not those who are of the day. This agrees with Jesus' teachings in Matthew chapters 24 and 25

God Bless

29 posted on 02/24/2006 8:06:13 PM PST by Clay+Iron_Times (The feet of the statue and the latter days of the church age)
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To: GrandEagle


Is the rapture before or after the seven-year tribulation?


It's become kind of popular today, in the last two or three years, to believe in the rapture occurring at the end of the tribulation. There has been three positions, historically, "pre-trib," "mid-trib," and "post-trib." What that means is the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation: "post-tribulation;" the middle of the tribulation: "mid-tribulation;" the beginning of the tribulation: "pre-tribulation." Now if you wanted to catalog me I would have to claim to be a "pre-tribulationist"--I believe the Church will be taken out before the tribulation.

Now if you would like a full-length answer on that we have a series of tapes on that very subject, so I am not going into that other than to just give you two reasons, that I believe, are the most difficult arguments for a "post-tribulationalist" to deal with. If a person comes along, and this is popular today, there are a lot of people who want to go through the tribulation. We have got some sort of a martyr-complex. You know in a mechanized society, and a very high-powered society, and a very easy kind of existence, a lot of people kind of think that it is neat to go through the tribulation. They see the movie about "A Thief in the Night" and they can see themselves running from the beast and all this intrigue. Now I am saying this truly, because this is happening in the minds of--not the educational people, not the theology people, so much as it is a popular kind of a thing. I think Hal Lindsey's books, which took a firm pre-tribulational stand, forced some theologians out of the woodwork to write on a post-tribulational position. So you have the theological battle, and it is going on, on those two positions, but you have this new popular thing, and sometimes I will listen to those Christian television programs and they are talking about, "Well, you know I am not convinced that we are going to be taken out. I think we may go through....oh......." And it is all very dramatic.

Listen folks. I don't want to be there--it doesn't sound good to me at all. If I had my choice of being here with the beast or being in heaven with Jesus--it isn't even a question! Aside from that emotional argument which doesn't hold water--that's just me.

There are two primary things that you have to deal with if you are going to take a post-tribulation position:

1. The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."

Now the post-tribulation position says this--watch--that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return--you go through the tribulation and then "up and back." There is a big problem with that and it is this: if all the regenerate people go up and come back, then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does is separate the sheep from the goats--who are the sheep? See? who are the sheep? They can't be Christians because there aren't any left--they all got raptured. But if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the sheep at the end of the tribulation--understand?

So if you jam it all at the end--I see that as the major problem of the post-tribulational view--where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back, then there aren't any sheep left--it's not going to be a problem to say, "You sheep come over and go into my kingdom, and you goats here..."--there aren't any sheep left, they have already been raptured and glorified and all set. That's the first problem.

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1. The second problem, and I think that they have to face if they take a post-tribulation view is 2 Thessalonians 2:1--these are primary arguments--there are many others, but these are just ones that I'll give you quickly. 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and I think maybe that these are the two best arguments against a post-tribulation position. Some of you don't even know what I'm talking about--you just relax and do whatever you want and we will be back in a minute.

2 Thessalonians 2:1, "Now we beseech you brethren,” now listen, “By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.” "Jesus is coming,” says Paul to the Thessalonians, “and we will be gathered together unto him.” Episunagoge, gathering together. Its used one other time in the New Testament, that’s Hebrews 10:25. And in Hebrews 10:25 it says “forsake not the sunagogoge, the assembling of yourselves together.” It is a word reserved in the New Testament for gathering together of believers. So, the Thessalonians Christians were saying, "Oh, are we already in the time of trouble, is it already too late. And he says Now wait a minute, we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus and our, our specific gathering together to him, don’t be shaking let no man deceive you." And then he says, "I believe that after will come the day of the Lord. And then the falling away and the man of sin is revealed and all of that." But I see is the primary event the gathering together, a special gathering together, a special coming together of the church, a unique one separate from anything else. And I think Thessalonians 2:1 has a great amount of weight towards that end.

So, my belief is that the church does not go through the tribulation. And again I I would say that that’s just putting it together the best way I can, it’s a very difficult problem. There are many other reasons that I have tried to share with you and I stand on that ground and we’ll find out sooner or later. And I feel like Dr. Saucy who said, “I know there are some errors in my Theology, I just wish I knew where they were.” And there will be some somewhere and we’ll see whether that works out.

31 posted on 02/24/2006 8:52:24 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: GrandEagle

that is the difference between the second coming and the rapture.
If the Church was to go through the tribulation, it would hardly be a blessed hope to look forward to. I believe if Christ meant for the Church to go through the tribulation, there would be specific instructions how to do so.

Pauls teaching on the rapture in thessolonians tells us to comfort one another with these words, not scare the living daylights out of each other with these words
also, the church in thessolonians thought they had missed the rapture, but the trib had not happened, so they were obviously a pre-trib church, and had been taught on the end times by Paul himself

98 posted on 04/30/2007 12:32:13 PM PDT by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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To: GrandEagle

People seem to be looking for a Tribulation with a capital “T” when the Bible refers to tribulation with a little “t”. In the 24th Chapter of Matthew, it refers to “after the tribulation of those days” as being the time when Christ would return. Who knows? Perhaps the earth has been in the tribulation ever since Christ ascended.

117 posted on 05/01/2007 2:35:13 PM PDT by Twinkie (Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God . . .)
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