Posted on 03/01/2006 10:35:38 AM PST by Full Court
Baptists and Protestants would beg to differ.
It isn't hard to grasp.
No offense maam, but that list is absolutely riddled with errors.
Have you ever heard of the Didache? It's lists practices of the early church. It was probably written around 100 AD. You can read it here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html
You can also read any of the writings from the people of the early church. If you read any un-biased church history , you will see that about half of the things on that list can be proven false very easily.
If you don't trust Catholics you can ask any of the Orthodox and they will tell you the same thing.
But many of my favorite people (including FReepers) are Catholic.
It's not so much specificall the Ash Wednesday practice that bothers me, but the general ecumenical idea that we can focus on things we agree on and downplay our theological differences like they aren't that important. I think we need to be very careful about that. Perhaps the intentions are not to weaken each other, but I believe that will be the results. The differences are very fundamental.
For a High Church Episcopalian thinking about moving to a new church home, those two issues made this church a non-starter. But for folks who AREN't "high" (and believe me we were in a distinct minority in this diocese), it may be perfectly all right.
Why should I care?
Forgive me as I am not certain what it means to be a "High Church Episcopalian." No need to define. My dear fellow Atlanta and sister in Christ, I hope you have a wonderful day.
May our lives (character, conduct, and conservations) be pleasing to our Lord.
“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” John 17: 1, 11, 20-23 KJV
The Church was one for the first thousand years. Now there are over 30,000 different denominations. Since Jesus specifically prayed five times, in this particular passage, that we all be one, it must have been very important to Him and must grieve His heart terribly that we have used our free will to become so separated and fragmented.
I can really understand your concern and your rejection of the worship of Mary (or any other creature.) But hasn't anyone ever explained to you that Catholics don't worship Mary? That is, we must never "worship" her in the sense of giving the supreme honor and adoration due to God alone.
We do honor Mary as I'm sure Jesus Himself did --- since He certainly obeyed the commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." Mary is creature, disciple, servant... also addressed by the Angel Gabriel with what must be even MORE than merely a royal title, "Full of Grace" Gratia Plena. Panagia. There's really nobody else even remotely suited to have the title of "Queen" --- and thus fulfill all that Old Testament typography --- except for Mary most humble. Or who else would you suggest?
You wrote: "Mary was truly blessed and was a noble servant of GOD. She is not a co-redemptress."
Right you are. Let's agree to agree on that!
I do not see the fragmentation as a bad thing. That's what keeps us challenged to stay true to the teachings of Christ. Too much unity amongst fallible humans tends to lead to all of them following false teachings (in the church) or a deceitful leader (in government). There is one church and she is scattered among many denominations. I think we are facing a time of testing and purification right now. I think there will be a big separation in the church, a reorganization. God is cleaning house. I am not a prophet and I don't speak for God, so that's just based on human observation. But there are some big things happening in churches right now. Big changes. And most are not for the better. A lot of this has to do with weak humans wanting to feel good about themselves and others more than they want to honor and glorify a holy God.
If you don't care about truth, I guess you shouldn't. It's your soul.
I don't care if a religious community started a few centuries ago by second rate theologians does not like Catholic faith.
And just how many Bible verses can you quote? Where is your degree in theology in order to evaluate what rating any theologican gets?
Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will (2679)
As to Bible-quoting bees, I suggest you amuze yourself with your fellow bibliolators.
You answered my question as I suspected. No further questions.
If you believe that Holy Scripture is inerrant and that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then you **must - by definition** believe that the words I quoted from the Gospel of St. John are true and accurate. It says that Jesus prayed to the Father that we all might be one. If these words are taken literally - and I don't know how else they could be taken, because it is very clear - that means He places a high priority on union. Are you going to argue with Jesus by saying fragmentation is not bad, when He has very clearly said - 5 times! - that He desires union?
I love that whole section of John where Jesus is actually praying for us. That is so awesome. But unity does not trump truth, and in no way do I interpret that Scripture to mean that unity trumps truth.
Jesus also said that in the end many will say to Him "Lord, Lord...." and He will say to them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." So clearly He knew that all who claimed Him would not truly know Him, but would rather be deceieved by a false gospel.
I do not believe that all Catholics are going to hell, but I do believe that Catholic theology leads there. To the extent that some Catholics have true faith but are misled or uninformed about specific theological points, I think it is possible for them to be true Christians. But if your faith is in your own effort to get you to heaven, you will come up short. And if your faith is in truth as given to you by a man -- albeit a great man called "Pope" -- then you also might be sadly misled. I say that not to hurt anyone. Most Catholics are wonderful and intelligent people who I am fortunate to know. But truth matters, especially the truth of the gospel.
Conflict, even in the church, can sometimes be a process God uses to teach and to purify us. It is not ideal, but then we are talking about imperfect people; and without the conflict we would likely never be challenged to understand the full counsel of God. Faith is more than a nice feeling.
As St. Thomas More, condemned to death by the the court of King Henry VIII, told his judges: "may we yet hereafter in heaven merrily all meet together to everlasting salvation."
We should be friends and allies on moral and freedom issues. That's it. We need to know where to draw lines.
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