Posted on 03/08/2006 7:22:57 PM PST by churchillbuff
We had discussed this previously -- look at the post I'm responding to; I believe you will find it to be interesting reading.
Another anectdotal datum, I know. But an interesting read nonetheless.
"That's metaphor, not allegory. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" is not metaphor, and it's not allegory either."
And believe me, it's not literal, either.
Also, God said he didn't work hard enough for Social Justice and against Global Warming.
I suspect had you worshipped in a Jewish temple with Jesus you would also have observed "pagan rites" and ceremonies very similar to modern masses. Sad that you scorn as an "abomination" what which you obviously have not studied. Presumably you would also condemn the worship rituals of Judaism. One observer has commented that the Catholic Church has many resemblances to a synagogue, but with Jesus.
Your mindset reminds me that...the term "abomination" was also once used by men who refused to allow their wives ether during childbirth.
"Do you honestly believe that someone can be as evil and cruel as possible for 75 years and then be "saved" in the last ten seconds of their life and still be treated the same as someone who led a life of self-sacrifice and doing for others? I still find that very hard to believe. If what you say is true, then what is the incentive to be good?"
Sure. Read: (II Chronicles 33:12) how God forgave King Manasseh, who had sacrificed his children to Satan, among all the other things he did leading Israel astray.
There's no sin so great that God won't forgive. But He does not honor lately-invented rites like masses and sacraments.
Those are human inventions that fly in the face of The Word Of God.
As for my judging, let me tell you what God has said "The spiritual man judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man".
So you believe that these two people would be treated exactly the same:
1) A Mother Theresa type - spends their entire life helping others, sacrificing themselves for others, never hurting anyone and believes that Jesus is their saviour. This person dies and goes straight to heaven.
2) Adolph Hitler, seconds before his death, expresses his beleif that Jesus is his saviour. He dies and goes straight to heaven.
You really believe there is no difference between these two and they will both go directly to heaven.
Then why on earth should anyone be good? Why not be selfish and live only for pleasure - as long as you get "saved" ten seconds before you die?
That makes no sense to me at all.
Your questions interest me.
FWIW ... these are my thoughts on the subject.
First of all ... scripturally, ... there is a difference in the rewards received ... of those children of God who are more faithful ... and those children of God who are less faithful.
The passage in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 testifies to this ...1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.So ... the scriptures, themselves, testify that all believers will NOT merit the same rewards.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
On the further issue of salvation itself, ... I tend to see it as a package deal.
If one is a child of God, ... then one will exhibit faith and works, ... and, not only that, ... but I believe that one will exhibit an overweening degree of desire ... for the things of God (i.e. what God has for you).
This is what I believe will ultimately keep many from coming to faith ... they simply do not desire the things of God.
This was Lucifer/Satan's issue, after all.
He preferred his own ambitions ... to the gifts (of position and service) ... which God had provided to him.
Therefore, ... he rebelled ... and fell.
When we look at these hypotheticals ... such as the possibility of a believing Hitler ... I have a hard time seeing it.
It certainly doesn't appear that Hitler had any desire for the things of God (i.e. what God would have provided to him).
So he rebelled, as well ... and his rebellion was made manifest in his attack upon a people of God (the Jews).
OTOH, I have no problem believing that a Mother Teresa clearly demonstrated a true desire for the things of God, ... and that she was, thus, a good candidate for receiving faith in God and Christ, ... and for performing comensurate good works.
It is true that we cannot see the hearts of men, ... but it is also true that we can see their actions.
Our eyes may fool us in some cases, ... but, in many cases, ... we can see the heart ... through the actions it spawns.
Nothing doctinaire ... just a rambling.
To be absent from the body is to be present in eternity. Yes, the Lord is there. But so also are other states of existence, and Beings who are NOT with the Lord.
If you recite the Apostle's Creed, you state as confession of faith that after his own death, Jesus, "descended into hell..after three days he ascended into heaven". Christ Himself did not immediately ascend at the moment of His body's death..
Note that "hell" is translated from early terms more synonymous with Hades, a place of punishment based on judgement, but lacking the eternal damnation of Hell which will be brought about at the final judgement..
As one author (not a "fool" I think) has said:
"...while the notion of purgatory is foreign to Scripture, yet believers should not take lightly the possibility of great and painful losses at the judgment seat of Christ, (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10). None of us should presume that any of us shall enter heaven without a thorough evaluation and full disclosure of the actual quality and content of our lives since we first believed."
http://www.ldolphin.org/descend.html
"Presumably you would also condemn the worship rituals of Judaism. One observer has commented that the Catholic Church has many resemblances to a synagogue, but with Jesus.
Yes - that's a mixture, and a little leaven leavens the whole lump."
God tore up the only religion He ever recognized on the day Christ died. The veil of the temple was torn in two, signifying that the last obstacle to coming unto the Father was now removed.
Jesus never taught religion - he was constantly emphasizing a direct relationship with His Father. And He said He was the only way to Him. That's why all religion is invalid.
Men try to intersperse themselves between man and God. Jesus said just the opposite. "You have one Father, and He is in heaven". "There is one mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus".
"there are first-century tombstones bearing prayers and commitments to atonement for the dead"
Just because they were doing it in the first century doesn't make it right. There were a lot of things being done wrong by Christians and Paul addressed some of them but I don't think it would have been possible for him to have addressed them all.
"If you look hard enough, you will find Purgatory in the Bible. Not the word, Purgatory, but references to it.
Even St. Paul referred to Purgatory!"
That's absolutely unfounded.
finding himself with a group of hideous beings who attacked him as they led him to a foggy zone that descended toward "hell."
wow, imagine that. dying and waking up in New York City.
&&
I was thinking more like the Democratic National Convention.
Wow! Fascinating story.
You waste your time arguing with Catholic haters such as RoadTest appears to be.
It was obvious from Christ's words that He knew his ministry was to be short, that He intended his followers to build a "church" (body of believers, not to be worshipped, but to teach others Who to worship and how)..it is the church that was to continue His Word, and to spread His teachings on Earth. Otherwise, few would be aware of His name and few would be able to profess Him. If this is Christianity, and not "religion" then I don't know what it is.
Matthew 16:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
As for sacraments, in the Catholic Church (The Church founded by Peter, the Rock), there are 7:
The Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Penance/Reconciliation
Eucharist
Confirmation
Matrimony
Holy Orders
Extremunction or Anointing of the Sick
The Catholic Church says this about the sacraments:
"The great mystery of the union in Christ of a human nature with the second Person of the Godhead is that the human actions and sufferings of Christ are divine actions and sufferings. The sacraments are a living continuation of this mystery. There are earthly, external signs here which, of themselves, could never acquire any supernatural significance, but the signs of the sacraments have been made by Christ into vehicles of his grace. They effect in men the grace for which Christ made them the sign......
The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer"
Abomination in the Eye of God? I'll take my chances.
NDE's that are all light, with no hint of judgment or repentance, seem especially to be based on wishful thinking, and even a more dangerous kind of delusion.
I am not making a judgment in this particular case; I am just saying that even Christians --- or, especially Christians --- are justified in being sceptical of
"I'll take my chances."
Even if you knew Peter never went to Rome?
You're gambling with your immortal soul.
"mass (I assume you really mean, the Eucharist, or "communion") does reenact a very significant ritual that orginated as a Passover seder meal"
You're letting the Catholic system put you back under the law. You need to go to Jesus and repent of ever believing Mystery Babylon, the harlot.
Do you really think Christ founded his church on Peter? Then why does it say, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."? (I Cor. 3:10)
"I will admit that at mass, we no longer slaughter sheep"
No, you don't. "Jesus" (if it were possible) is slaughtered, according to Catholic docrine, He who was once sacrificed for the sins of man and sat down at the right hand of God. "but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12)
The Catholic "mass" purports to bring Him down to earth and re-sacrifice him, in contradiction to God's word.
It's all fakery.
Human inventions? Did not John the Baptist and Jesus participate in the sacrament of Baptism?
Did not Jesus say, "Do this in memory of me?" - what do you think the Mass is? It is nothing more than following the instructions of Jesus when he said to "Do this in memory of me."
How do you figure that these two things are "lately-invented"? And how does following the scriptures to be Baptised and "do this in memory of me" "fly in the face of the Word of God"? They ARE the word of God!
Don't let your hatred of the Catholic Church cloud your judgement. You may be very surprised when (or if - God does not cotton to hatred and prejudice) you arrive at the gates of St. Peter!
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