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Where heresy and dissent abound [Minnesota]
SperoForum.com ^ | 05-31-06 | Elizabeth Schwab

Posted on 05/31/2006 1:15:20 PM PDT by Salvation

Commentary:  Opinion
Where heresy and dissent abound
We have arrived at the point where good is stamped out as something evil, and evil is permitted to flourish as a good.
 
Wednesday, May 31, 2006
by Elizabeth Schwab

Pope John Paul II expressed grave concern for the future of the Catholic Church in America, and rightly so. He knew of the dangers lurking in the dark that insidiously threaten to undermine the Catholic faith. Today we look around with dismay at the state of affairs in the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis and realize that a more striking dichotomy could hardly exist. We have arrived at the point where good is stamped out as something evil, and evil is permitted to flourish as a good.

Following are selected snapshots of the current situation.

Despite the fact that the Church has taught clearly and concisely on marriage and homosexuality, there appears to be great confusion on these subjects among those whom you would expect to know better within the archdiocese. When a marriage amendment was recently proposed to the Minnesota State Legislature defining marriage as between one man and one woman, 27 pastors of the archdiocese wrote a letter to Archbishop Harry Flynn calling the amendment scandalous and an act of discrimination.

Fr. Michael Tegeder told the Pioneer Press, “Anybody who wants to be in a committed relationship and have children – I say God bless them,” and remarked that the issue of the marriage amendment was “a particularly thorny issue for Catholics.”  

 Particularly thorny? Fr. Tegeder has also spoken out against priestly celibacy and yet continues to retain his post as pastor of St. Edward’s parish in Bloomington.

It is noted that Archbishop Flynn refused to release the names of the pastors who signed the petition or to issue a public reprimand.

In addition to the 27 pastors, 130 staff and faculty members at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota signed a letter addressed to the archbishop stating that “the love, commitment and monogamy” of a lesbian couple is no less real than a married couple. This Catholic university is listed on the Rainbow Sash website as a gay-friendly institution and was recently in the news for an uproar which occurred at its 2006 graduation ceremony.

Ben Kessler, a graduating senior with a 4.0 grade-point average who plans to enter the priesthood, gave a commencement speech exhorting his fellow graduates to find true happiness through the gift of self. When he mentioned the widespread practice of birth control and extra-marital sex among several examples of selfishness in our society, he became the target of obscene protests. Both students and parents walked out of the ceremony. Although his speech was delivered in charity and in full conformity with Church teaching, the university forced him to issue a formal apology.

Apparently, the University of St. Thomas wants nothing to do with true Catholic doctrine and has not been promoting an authentic Catholic atmosphere for its students. Archbishop Flynn was present at the graduation ceremony and also sits on the university’s Board of Trustees.

In yet another attack against marriage, Fr. Michael Byron, pastor of the Church of St. Cecilia in St. Paul, published an article in his parish bulletin describing the marriage definition issue as “contentious among many citizens, including many Catholics,” and stated that it is “a matter worthy of sustained and sober debate among people of good will.” 

In a previous bulletin, he questioned the necessity of considering the Pope's dispositions in matters of Church doctrine and claimed that “prior to the 16 Century most Catholic people didn’t even know that the papacy existed.” He also falsely suggested that “nothing in our theological tradition supports the notion that we are a church that is run by a single man,” and blamed the media for putting undue emphasis on the papacy. 

Fr. Byron’s dissenting views should raise many eyebrows because not only is he a deputy censor of the archdiocese, meaning he has the serious responsibility of deciding whether or not a proposed publication is in accord with the Magisterium and so is qualified to receive an imprimatur, but he also teaches Systematic Theology at the St. Paul Seminary. Unfortunately, it was announced in February 2005 that the Vatican had found "serious doctrinal errors" in the work of Fr. Byron's doctoral dissertation adviser, Jesuit theologian Fr. Roger Haight, and had forbidden him to teach as a Catholic theologian.

At the Office of Indian Ministry in Minneapolis, one can find a unique example of a multi-cultural liturgy by Fr. James Notebaart, a priest featured on the archdiocesan website as an expert in building and remodeling churches, and a consultant on nearly all church renovations in the archdiocese within the last 30 years. Fr. Notebaart has designed a "Catholic" liturgy that incorporates several aspects of Native American pagan worship and is greatly influenced by his direct contact with medicine men in northern Minnesota. Ancient rituals included prayers to the spirits, drumming, and tobacco offerings to the spirit world. Sweat lodges constructed of wood poles were used by medicine men when performing these religious ceremonies.

Fr. Notebaart's liturgy successfully encompasses all of these aspects. A layman carries an ignited bowl of sage and uses a feather to direct the smoke throughout the congregation. Drums are played to symbolize a heartbeat. The following prayer is recited: “Earth, teach me stillness. Earth, teach me suffering as old stones suffer with memory. Earth, teach us freedom as an eagle who soars in the sky. Earth, teach us to forget ourselves as melted snow forgets itself.” The people respond, “Jesus, hear us.” Everyone takes some tobacco from a basket and drops it into the fire. A small pot of water is blessed by a woman, symbolizing the feminine role in giving life, and each person is offered a sip of "holy water" from the pot. A red willow sweat lodge holds various pagan objects sacred to the Indians, and the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in “a medicine bundle made of animal skins” which is stored inside the sweat lodge. The altar for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is “a buffalo hide that lies on the floor in the center of the room.” 

In case you are wondering, while Our Lord and Fr. Notebaart are on the floor, the congregation sits on metal folding chairs. (For more details of the liturgy, see here and here).

 Another interesting entry on the archdiocesan website is the Commission on Women (COW).

Archbishop John Roach of St. Paul-Minneapolis was the first US bishop to start such a committee in 1979. COW supports radical feminism in the Church and the inclusion of women to the priesthood. Their 2005 Women’s Research Forum featured a variety of feminist speakers, including Mary Feeley who told how inclusive language “is a passion for her” and that women “need to hear that God is Mother.”

In a panel discussion, Fr. Mike Byron stated: “The condemnation of Liberation Theology was a negative occurrence for women. Women should be educated and prepared to assume leadership roles in the church [sic]. Leadership needs to be parish-based and not based in Rome.”

This echoes his church bulletin article mentioned earlier. In the keynote address, Sisters are Doing it for Themselves, Dr. Diana Hayes, a Womanist from Georgetown University, said in her closing remarks: “We walk with Eve, the mother of us all, who sought, not to oppose the will of God but simply to acquire knowledge,” and called Eve’s sin “a defiant act of hope.” (See pages 44-46, and 24 here)

 In 2005, COW conducted listening sessions at churches throughout the archdiocese and published the results in the Catholic Spirit. Based on a limited sampling of less than 20 sessions, with the number of participants ranging from as few as 4 to 24 persons maximum, COW concluded that “everyone wants women more involved” in Church leadership roles, and planned to present their findings to Archbishop Flynn and other archdiocesan leaders in 2006. As they did not bother to hold any sessions at churches with a solid reputation for orthodoxy, we can only conclude that COW does not value the input of all women but only those who are likely to agree with their feminist agenda.

 With more than 225 parishes in the archdiocese and over 400 priests, there is certainly no valid need for general absolution services in St. Paul-Minneapolis. However, it is reported that approximately 75 parishes provide general absolution on a regular basis, either monthly or in preparation for the feasts of Easter and Christmas. This is a gross violation of Catholic Church teaching, and yet this practice has continued unhindered in the archdiocese for years.

In the Circular Letter concerning the integrity of the Sacrament of Penance which was released in 2000, the Vatican clearly states that “communal celebrations have not infrequently occasioned an illegitimate use of general absolution,” and says that this illegitimate use is to be eliminated. Also, “a sufficient necessity is not…considered to exist when confessors cannot be available merely because of a great gathering of penitents, such as can occur on some major feast day…The bishops will exercise renewed vigilance on these matters for the future, aware that departures from the authentic tradition do great wrong to the Church and to individual Catholics.” It is indeed a great wrong when souls are lost due to never having their sins properly forgiven. 

 The Letter leaves no doubt that a legitimate use of general absolution exists only in extremely rare cases. Why is it that Archbishop Flynn will not correct the widespread abuse of general absolution that is endangering so many souls in his flock?

We might also ask why he does nothing about the most notorious public scandal in the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis: the Church of St. Joan of Arc. St. Joan’s continues to shock with no interference from the local chancery.  In 2004, due to the inactivity of the Archbishop, the Vatican was forced to directly request that they remove their gay pride web pages and stop the practice of lay homilists. Well, the gay pride page came down, but the GLBT ministry page is still up.

And lay homilists? They cleverly substituted “Sunday presentations” for the homilies, and most of these are still given by the laity and clerics of other religions. One of the most popular pages on their website is the preview of upcoming homilies, and transcriptions of these are available on the website.

 Known nationwide, the heresy practiced at St. Joan of Arc goes well beyond the mainstream. At a Lenten Reconciliation Service led by Fr. Jim Debruycker, parishioners carried stones symbolizing sin in their life and then threw the stones into baskets. No absolution and no penance were given, just a challenge from Fr. Debruycker: “Jesus come to me and teach me resurrection.” 

 The Sex and Spirit page describes an Advent retreat designed to “bring the erotic into the spiritual community.” Based on the teachings of Matthew Fox and his colleague Star Hawk (a practicing witch), the retreat was led by a visiting homosexual minister and his co-pastor from the United Church of Christ. A “feathering” exercise required retreatants to gather into small groups. According to the article, each group “stands in a circle and one person goes to the center with their eyes closed and receives various forms of touch from the other members of the circle.” This ritual lasts 20 minutes! One participant commented afterwards, “Isn’t it remarkable that here we are strangers and we’re touching each other.” Another remarked, “You could touch people and not have to give.”

 The First Communion preparation for children includes a wine and host sampling and a tour of the sacristy where they are shown “the priest’s vestments, baptismal candles, communion supplies and even the sink where the unused wine is disposed of.”  Based on terms used in the report, it is understood that the unused wine referred to is actually the Precious Blood. That is not a good thing to be teaching the little ones because, according to Canon 1367, a person who throws away the consecrated species incurs an automatic excommunication. 

 Then there is the annual Seder Meal celebrated on Holy Thursday. It is a “celebration of the Eucharist in small groups at tables” where hostesses serve consecrated pita bread from large platters and glass decanters of consecrated wine are distributed to parishioners in a mock restaurant atmosphere. It’s a gala event with candles and a vase of flowers on every table.

 And just last month, April 28-29, 2006, the infamous heretic and apostate priest Matthew Fox was given the red carpet treatment at St. Joan of Arc Church for two speaking engagements.

Archdiocesan spokesman Dennis McGrath had stated that Archbishop Flynn would “take some action” to prevent Fox’s appearance. However, absolutely nothing was done. Rather, Fr. Jim DeBruycker gave Fox free rein to preach his heresy to St. Joan parishioners, encouraging them to post his “95 Theses” on church doors through the archdiocese in imitation of Martin Luther.

Fox’s “95 Theses” is a blatant attack upon the very definition of God as revealed in Sacred Scripture and is contemptuous of Church hierarchy. In his document, Fox rejects original sin, supports homosexuality, and preaches numerous heresies against the Catholic faith. He allegedly handpicked St. Joan’s as the launching site for his “New Reformation” as the parish is an ardent supporter of his teachings.

 A week after the Fox visit, Auxiliary Bishop Richard Pates visited St. Joan of Arc to formally install Fr. DeBruycker as pastor. According to The Wanderer, Bishop Pates assured parishioners that “Fr. DeBruycker has the full support of Archbishop Flynn.” In confirmation of this, Archbishop Flynn himself (along with Bishop Pates) paid a visit to St. Joan of Arc on May 24, 2006, to preside at the funeral Mass for Fr. Harvey Egan, former pastor of St. Joan’s. Fr. Egan is the founder of their famous and controversial “gym Mass.”

A local Catholic who attended the funeral gave a detailed description of what he saw. According to his account, there was “no tabernacle or sanctuary light in sight.” A parishioner informed him that the tabernacle was kept in a closet. The first and second readings were skipped, and in place of the Gospel a contemporary adaptation of the Sermon on the Mount was used which reflected Fr. Egan’s political interests.  He also said that "they used pita bread for the host at the consecration” and the sacred vessels were made of crystal. Extraordinary ministers distributed Holy Communion, while approximately a dozen priests who were fully vested “stood off to the side.” At the end of the service while the entire congregation was still assembled, Archbishop Flynn and Fr. DeBruycker openly joked about some of the improprieties practiced at St. Joan of Arc.

Archbishop Flynn’s willful participation in such a fiasco is appalling. Bishops are charged with the grave obligation to be “authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the faithful entrusted to their care” (Canon 753). As shepherds of the people, they are to “promote the common discipline of the whole Church and therefore to urge the observance of all ecclesiastical laws.” Bishops are “to be watchful lest abuses creep into ecclesiastical discipline, especially concerning the ministry of the word, the celebration of the sacraments” and also the worship of God (Can. 392). Yet Archbishop Flynn permits heresy and dissent to run rampant and actively takes part in it, all the while demanding respect and strict obedience to his contradictory requests from those who earnestly strive to uphold Catholic truth.

 



TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Skeptics/Seekers; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: archbishopflynn; catholic; catholiclist; heresy; homosexuality; marriage
[Minnesota]

Could be happening near you too!

1 posted on 05/31/2006 1:15:23 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ...

These webmasters are continuing to speak out!


2 posted on 05/31/2006 1:18:18 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

BUMP


3 posted on 05/31/2006 1:19:45 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Salvation
I am surprised that the rotting vine of dissent evidenced here has yet to be rooted out...

What is going on???

4 posted on 05/31/2006 1:32:38 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
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To: Salvation
Pope John Paul II expressed grave concern for the future of the Catholic Church in America,

Then why didn't he clean house? That is what I don't understand.

5 posted on 05/31/2006 1:34:52 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Salvation

Bishop Flynn has got to go and that parish is reason enough. After visiting St. Joan's website you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

http://stjoan.com/

Poor St. Joan of Arc... her good name being sullied again.


6 posted on 05/31/2006 1:37:09 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: Salvation; Caleb1411

BUMP


7 posted on 05/31/2006 1:43:34 PM PDT by rhema ("Break the conventions, keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Nihil Obstat
Bishop Flynn has got to go and that parish is reason enough. After visiting St. Joan's website you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Absolutely! That parish has been in dissent for a long time and a major embarrassment to the Church. Why does this keep going on unchecked?

8 posted on 05/31/2006 1:44:36 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Nihil Obstat

That is absolutely scary! i wanted to get out of there as fast as I could! Yikes!


9 posted on 05/31/2006 1:46:38 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
I have a simple question. Why can't the Pope avoid making Bishops and Cardinals out of people who are not a reflection of the Bible and the Catholic church?

We have a very bad guy in our Cardinal IMO here in Los Angeles and I guess I figure the best way to avoid a bad guy is to never give him any position of power.

When you get strange Cardinals and Bishops like that, is that saying the Pope couldn't find more traditional and better people ANYWHERE else in the world among ALL his priests?

I know the Pope can't investigate each one, but who ever has been reviewing these people has been doing a piss poor job.
10 posted on 05/31/2006 1:46:53 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy

Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to your question, in fact, I share much of your question.

On behalf of Pope Benedict, however, he is cleaning house, and I am sure he will make it to both the LA and this Archdiocese!

Pray as those your spiritual life depends on it -- for it does!


11 posted on 05/31/2006 1:49:50 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: A CA Guy

>>>I have a simple question. Why can't the Pope avoid making Bishops and Cardinals out of people who are not a reflection of the Bible and the Catholic church?<<<

meet Jean Jadot

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1225866/posts


12 posted on 05/31/2006 1:50:33 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: Salvation
Dude! Like I am spirit of tobacco floating up to the great spirit!

Scary. Freaky. Catholic? Youchy!!!
13 posted on 05/31/2006 1:55:17 PM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: Salvation
Pope John Paul was a truly honest and Holy man, but he must have been advised by snooks to raise into power within the church some of the boobs that he did.

Those mistakes have been sharp knives into the heart of the Catholic faith in times when it has come under the most pressure and attacks.
14 posted on 05/31/2006 2:01:57 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Salvation

Wow!

For anyone who lives in these parishes, look out for the lightning bolts!


15 posted on 05/31/2006 2:16:30 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Never trust Democrats with national security.)
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To: Nihil Obstat; Salvation
Roger Mahony is an ass.

My mother was in the leadership of the prayer community in the parish where Father Michael Baker was a new priest in California.
My mom went to Mahony at least a couple of times personally, wrote several letters and he did nothing regarding the problems. Mind you this was BEFORE he was molesting kids.

http://onelacatholic.blogspot.com/2006/01/more-on-father-bakers-arrest.html

The SOB Baker was fooling around with the women...
He looked like a linebacker version of Elvis.
He was one of the best orators in the church I ever heard and came off as VERY SPIRITUAL (ended up being an evil spirit).
My mother had to fight the other members of the leadership within that parish who were fooled and in the end she couldn't take the BS anymore and had to leave that parish.

Due to the fact Mahony didn't listen to my mother for 3 years, how many young men got molested? 40?

Most recently Mahony has been marching in Los Angeles for illegals who are here illegally and practicing felony document fraud to access our system and benefits.

A pox on Mahony IMO.
16 posted on 05/31/2006 2:22:14 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Salvation; Nihil Obstat; A CA Guy; All

Good Post.

It is my humble opinion that Archbishop Flynn and Cardinal Mahony need to be taken out by the Vatican asap.

Both of them are a grave scandal to the Catholic Faithful in this country. We need to have Bishops and Cardinals like Chaput of Denver, Bruskewitz of Nebraska, Finn of Kansas -City Missouri, etc.

If the Vatican does not do this quickly, most Conservative/Orthodox Catholics in various Dioceses and Archdioceses in this country might join the "S.S.P.X." Folks en mass.

Something needs to be done quickly.


17 posted on 05/31/2006 2:57:01 PM PDT by warriorforourlady (I Love Pope Benedict, The XVI. Our Lady, Help of Christians protect him and guide him.)
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To: warriorforourlady
Can you imagine how maddening it was for me to watch the walking screw up Mahony marching with illegals?

That was all about getting Catholics who will give the church money.

You don't see Mahony marching for other religious groups that won't line his pockets.

He makes me mad. I don't enjoy watching a communist as Cardinal IMO.

Wasn't there some little Commandment about NOT coveting they neighbor's goods?
18 posted on 05/31/2006 3:22:47 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Nihil Obstat

Hard to imagine the famous St Agnes and this parish coexisting in the same Diocese, isn't it?


19 posted on 05/31/2006 5:40:25 PM PDT by CatholicLady
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To: CatholicLady

wouldn't it be something if the next Bishop sends Fr. Altier to St. Joan's?


20 posted on 05/31/2006 5:45:12 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


21 posted on 05/31/2006 6:17:23 PM PDT by Coleus (I Support Research using the Ethical, Effective and Moral use of stem cells: non-embryonic)
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To: Salvation

mtegeder@stedwardschurch.org


22 posted on 05/31/2006 7:06:29 PM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
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To: Salvation

Oh where oh where is a holy hand grenade when you need one?


23 posted on 05/31/2006 7:33:18 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Salvation; american colleen; Lady In Blue; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Could be happening near you too!

It is happening here in NYS. There are several dioceses, mine included, that span the gap of normative worship.

TREE OF LIFE
A sculptural fountain and an Offering Table for the Meditation Place.

The Meditation Place is designed to embrace many faiths, traditions and beliefs. The Tree of Life sculpture is a focal point in the design as an important symbol in almost every religion. In creating the sculpture I introduced additional connections. Apropos of a medical institution, the trees trunk transforms into a double helix of DNA. At the base of the helix is a fig leaf and a seed pod, the traditional symbol of Buddha. Along the spiraling strands are streams of life forms - leaves, sticks, flowers, snails, fish, and birds (over a hundred different images) all surging upward. The tree grows from a fountain that spills into a pool cut into a granite cube. The running water produces The Meditation Places ambient sound track.

Design team:
Fr. James Notebaart - liturgical designer;
Alexander Tylevich - sculptor;
Dietrich Spahn - glass designer;
Rafferty, Rafferty, Tollefson Architects (RRT)

24 posted on 05/31/2006 7:41:34 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Nihil Obstat

That would be justice for Archbishop Flynn. I don't know about Father Altier.


25 posted on 05/31/2006 7:42:49 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Why don't they just have simple Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament? Go figure!


26 posted on 05/31/2006 7:57:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Dear NYer -

Just to tie it all together:




Text of priests’ letter
to Bishop Wilton Gregory

We, the undersigned, are priests serving in the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis. We write to you as the President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops because we wish to join our voices with the voices of priests of other dioceses in the United States, requesting that you use your position to achieve an open discussion of the issue of mandatory/optional celibacy for diocesan priests among the bishops of our nation.

It is our position that the current and prospective shortage of priests constitutes a grave threat to the Church in our country because, whereas our Catholic tradition and Vatican Council II teach that the liturgy is the summit and fount of the life of the Church, our Catholic faithful are more and more being denied their baptismal right to full access to the sacramental life of the Church, especially Sunday Eucharist.

We believe that the Holy Spirit does not fail to call to the priesthood sufficient numbers of the faithful from our parishes. However, mandatory celibacy is a major obstacle to devout and otherwise qualified men responding to this call. We believe changing the discipline of calling only celibate males to the priesthood of the Roman Rite to include married men as candidates would provide a priesthood of married as well as celibate men who would be available to provide for the leadership and cultic needs of our parishes.

Therefore, we are requesting our episcopal leaders to explore the issue of mandatory/optional celibacy for diocesan priests as soon as possible, and we are writing to enlist your support to that end.

Sincerely in the Spirit of Jesus,

Stephen Adrian, Richard Moudry, Edward Flahavan, Timothy Power, Richard Wolter, Robert Fitzpatrick, John Hofstede, Michael Joncas, Robert Johnson, Timothy Wozniak, George Wertin, Patrick Malone, Jerome Keiser, Patrick Kennedy, William Kenney, Roger Pierre, Eugene Pouliot, Robert White, Roger Carroll, Thomas Conroy, Bryan O’Rourke, Martin Warren, Thomas Garvey, Wally Boehme, James Notebaart, Donald Piche, James Schoenberger, John Long, John Bauer, Kevin Clinton, Harvey Egan, Michael O’Connell, Jerry Vandrovec, Michael Arms, Michael Erlander, Dennis Dempsey, Paul Moudry, Gregory Welch, John Malone, Richard Rice, John Brandes, Thomas Kommers, Joseph Whalen, Patrick Griffin, Kenneth Pierre, Timothy Morin, Michael Tegeder, Fred Maples, Charles Burns, Michael Monogue, William Murtaugh, John Parkos, Stephen O’Gara, Gregory Esty, Stephen LaCanne, Matthew Linn, Gregory Skrypek, Paul Feela, Cletus Wessels, Richard Banker, David Smith, Eugene Abbott, John Siebenaler, Richard Mahoney, Steven Henrich, Phil Dreckman, Dale Korogi, B. J. McMullen, Harry Walsh, Lawrence R. Johnson, Jose M. Santiago, James Zappa Jr., Thomas Rayar, Tom Poulsen, William Martin, William Stolzman, Clement Zweber, Ronald J. Bowers, Tom Walker, James D. Gorman, John Raymond Lau, Robert Sipe, Robert Monaghan, Joseph Gillespie, James Radde, John Clay, Douglas Dandurand, Eugene Michel, Jerome Hackenmueller, Stephen Bonian, Lawrence Hubbard, Richard Wirth, James Habiger, Fredrick Mertz, Jerome Boxleitner, John Fizpatrick, Robert Hart, Kenneth LaVan, Stanley Maslowski, Martin Beckman, Robert Nygaard, Ambrose Mahon, H. Hansen, S. McMichael, D. Schwinghammer, John Forliti, Robert Valit, Dennis Thompson, James Smith, Leo Tibesar, Thomas Brioschi, David McCauley, George Kallumkalkudy.




Yes, your "Fr. James Notebaart - liturgical designer" signed this letter.


27 posted on 05/31/2006 8:01:27 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: Nihil Obstat

Another example of what is happening there!


28 posted on 05/31/2006 8:05:10 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Bishop Flynn has to go. Fr. Altier would make a great replacement.


29 posted on 05/31/2006 8:21:03 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: Rodney King

Because he does NOT"run" the Church. So long as Flynn remains in authority, the pope will not intervene. WHY Rome does not remove him probably has to do with the support that Flynn enjoys in the American Church.


30 posted on 05/31/2006 8:23:21 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Nihil Obstat

That solution would, indeed, be ironic!


31 posted on 05/31/2006 8:24:43 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
OK, so the Archbishop has a few loose cannons in his diocese but he sure straightened out that Fr. Altier, didn't he?

Let nobody say that Archbishop Flynn tolerates dissent and runs a loose ship. Altier never knew what hit him. The good Catholics of Minnesota can sleep easier knowing Flynn got that troublemaker out of their midst.

32 posted on 05/31/2006 8:36:06 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer

If people like this kind of art, I have no problem.

But if people want to pretend that such art makes one ponder one's own relationship with the Holy Trinity and their own eternal destiny - such as the "liturgical designer" priest listed in the caption does - then I say, (in the words of Ray Romano's dad Frank) "Cut the crap."


33 posted on 05/31/2006 10:39:29 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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To: Salvation

Didn't Jesus say something about those who are "neither hot nor cold"? Bleah!


34 posted on 06/01/2006 4:35:16 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Nihil Obstat
After visiting St. Joan's website you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

How about nauseated?

35 posted on 06/01/2006 4:36:32 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: NYer
Design team

Design Vandalism team

"The Tree of Life" is nothing a well placed hand grenade couldn't cure.

36 posted on 06/01/2006 4:40:14 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: NYer

GAG! That is some kind of hideous U-G-L-Y! My old cat had better looking scratching posts!


37 posted on 06/01/2006 6:38:23 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (Mexico: America's Palestine)
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To: Nihil Obstat; Salvation; Caleb1411
Bishop Flynn has got to go and that parish is reason enough. After visiting St. Joan's website you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
http://stjoan.com/
Poor St. Joan of Arc... her good name being sullied again.

And predictably, the MSM lionizes every "progressive" Catholic who courts (or, in Egan's case, did court) the praise of the world more than the praise of God:

Sure, for decades, the Rev. Harvey Egan was the conscience of Minnesota. . . .

38 posted on 06/01/2006 6:52:29 AM PDT by rhema ("Break the conventions, keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: Salvation

It's no wonder people went so nuts over Kessler. The heretics.


39 posted on 06/01/2006 7:37:44 AM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: NYer

This reminds of that church in Belgium that turns into a mosque when muslims need it.


40 posted on 06/01/2006 8:38:46 AM PDT by JZelle
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To: rhema

**At church or track, priest cast his lot with the long shots**

Addicted to?????


41 posted on 06/01/2006 8:42:24 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Nihil Obstat
"Yes, your "Fr. James Notebaart - liturgical designer" signed this letter."

As did the noted Michael Joncas, composer of a lot of the dreck that serves as "liturgical" music these days. I am not surprised that I am not surprised.

42 posted on 06/01/2006 11:15:52 AM PDT by redhead (The REAL redhead -- not the lefty imitation.)
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To: Salvation; A CA Guy; Nihil Obstat; NYer

OK folks, I have to admit that I'm missing the point here.

The article in question describes in some detail the various ...innovations... within the Minneapolis Archdiocese. And most of us are familiar with the travails of Fr. Altier. This is clearly a questionable Archdiocese from a theological perspective. However, the Archbishop is very much in control of the Archdiocese, and absent his (unlikely) removal and replacement, the situation isn't going to change anytime soon.

Minneapolis is also a big metropolitan area and has no fewer than 5 eastern Catholic churches. 2 Ukranian, 2 Maronite, and one Ruthenian. So there are orthodox Catholic alternatives available to anyone who wants to seek them out. Yet I'd be willing to bet that those same eastern Catholic churches are relatively empty as compared to the average Parish in the Diocese.

Obviously, there are orthodox western Catholics who are unhappy with the situation in the Archdiocese. But they stay. And they complain. And I have to ask: why? To what end?

I can understand the concept of bearing witness. I can also understand a reluctance to change. But at a certain point you'd think that logic would dictate seeking something else.

I guess people just don't think that way.


43 posted on 06/01/2006 6:47:31 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: RKBA Democrat

you raise a good point.


44 posted on 06/01/2006 7:30:20 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat
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To: RKBA Democrat

What are you smoking?

These priests have no right to do what they’re doing and they’re still doing this same garbage more than four years later in the same Diocese.

As long as people in the pews are complaisant, nothing will change.


45 posted on 10/15/2010 2:57:07 PM PDT by 0beron
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To: 0beron

Wow. A reply to a post from more than 4 years ago. I’m impressed. I don’t even remember the thread.

My point remains a valid one, and I’ll state it a little more pointedly. There are a lot of western (Roman) Catholics who rightfully have problems with practices within their parishes. Yet when it comes down to it, they’d rather stand around, bitching and moaning, than take positive action such as finding another place to worship.

I identified five eastern Catholic parishes within the Minneapolis area. Eastern Catholic churches that are in full communion with the Holy See and which are under a completely different administration with different Bishops. Places where Orthodoxy is quite literally a point of pride. Yet I would bet that these parishes are relatively empty and devoid of these allegedly “orthodox” western Catholics.

I don’t participate in these threads anymore where western Catholics complain about the heterodoxy in their parishes or diocese. The vast bulk of those complaining live in metropolitan areas where they can either find a more orthodox parish, or go to an eastern Catholic church. Yet they don’t. And that’s probably a good thing.

These are people who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle, and I’ve come to the conclusion that in most cases, it’s better for eastern Catholics that they stay right where they are.


46 posted on 10/16/2010 6:59:12 AM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics, and victors study demographics.)
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To: RKBA Democrat

“My point remains a valid one, and I’ll state it a little more pointedly. There are a lot of western (Roman) Catholics who rightfully have problems with practices within their parishes. Yet when it comes down to it, they’d rather stand around, bitching and moaning, than take positive action such as finding another place to worship.”

If people don’t know any better, nothing will change. I don’t agree that retreating to an eastern parish and navel gazing changes anything.

I’ve seen liberal priests driven from their parishes because people start get get angry and threaten to pull financial support.

Of course, I’ve seen it work the other way too.


47 posted on 10/17/2010 6:55:36 PM PDT by 0beron
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To: 0beron

I have been a member of St. Charles Borromeo in St.Anthony for 50 years. Next to St. Agnes, I think it is one of most orthodox Roman Catholic Church in the Twin Cities.


48 posted on 02/26/2012 2:41:20 PM PST by gnpat
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