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NEW ITALIAN CATHEDRAL TO PADRE PIO DESIGNED AS FREEMASONIC TEMPLE
Chiesa Viva authored by Dr. Engineer Franco Addessa ^ | March 2006 | D. M. S.

Posted on 07/19/2006 10:40:38 AM PDT by Youngstown

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To: 5Madman2

Oh please. EVIL fighting EVIL is still EVIL.


151 posted on 07/20/2006 3:45:25 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: FJ290
Why don't you take a break and read "A World Lit Only By Fire" which was written by William Manchester.

BTW Can I watch a 4th degree Knights of Columbus installation?

152 posted on 07/20/2006 3:46:44 PM PDT by oldtimer
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To: FJ290

RE: "These oaths are also sworn under symbolic, blood-curdling penalties of physical torture and death called self-curses (e.g., having my throat cut across, and my tongue torn out by its roots). These penalties show a lack of respect for God and amount to blasphemy which is a serious sin."

Makes ya wonder if Salza is at all familiar with the Inquisition.


153 posted on 07/20/2006 3:47:27 PM PDT by 1 spark
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To: FJ290

Is Jack Chick a freemason? :-)


154 posted on 07/20/2006 3:48:20 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: FJ290

Just floating a trial baloon. I wanted to see what would happen if I used Jack Chick and Freemasons in the same sentence. :-)


155 posted on 07/20/2006 3:50:20 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: FJ290

sign me up!


156 posted on 07/20/2006 3:50:31 PM PDT by 1 spark
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To: nopardons
But it is NOT a religion. You are having a problem with Freemasonry wanting it's membership to be good, moral people? WHY?

I have no problem with anyone promoting goodness and morality, it's the other issues that I have mentioned that is a problem. It is teaching religious indifferentism and religious syncretism.

It is totally incompatible with the Christian faith which teaches what the Lord Jesus Christ taught us, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

You keep claiming that it's promoting tolerance, but you can be tolerant of others without telling them:

"Rather, they are the inspired wisdom contained in the Bible, the Talmud, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita or any of the other Great Books of Faith that have been universally recognized as man's best guides to happiness on this world and reward in the next.

Talk about starting a one world religion... there's your roots for it!

157 posted on 07/20/2006 3:50:34 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

hey there! good to see you. where is everyone...back at "the lodge"?


158 posted on 07/20/2006 3:53:11 PM PDT by 1 spark
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To: FJ290
You say the associations of the founders doesn't matter; yet you proceed to tell me, at length, about the DISinterest of ONE.

We will never agree; but don't you think those who ARE Masons know more about their activities than you do?
159 posted on 07/20/2006 3:53:36 PM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: nopardons

You Freemasons remind me of the James Carville types during the Clinton era. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Do we not have the right to believe that the Catholic religion is the only true religion under our Constitution? After all, all religions contradict each other. If the statement, all religions are true is true, then the fact not all religions believe this disproves this because of the philosophical law of noncontradiction.

Freemasonry, by contrast believes that no religions are absolutely true, and requires everyone to believe likewise. Actions speak far louder than words. The Americans United for Separation of Church and State was founded by the Scottish Rite Freemasons, and BTW, the KKK was founded by Freemasons.

Gotta love your tolerant Fraternity.

I would suggest you research the role the Grand Orient Lodge played in the French Revolution. Stop denying the role your murderous little fraternity has played in world history.

My ancestor met the guillotine due to the Masonic ideology of the French Revolutionaries. I shouldn't waste my time with an ignorant fellow such as yourself.


160 posted on 07/20/2006 3:54:34 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: oldtimer
BTW Can I watch a 4th degree Knights of Columbus installation?

Sure, become a Catholic and we'll let you join the Knights of Columbus, but you'll have to drop that membership in the Masons.

161 posted on 07/20/2006 3:54:43 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: 1 spark
hey there! good to see you. where is everyone...back at "the lodge"?

Hey Sparky. The "lodge" is becoming a vacant house on a huge lot I'm afraid. Good to see you too.

162 posted on 07/20/2006 3:55:01 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: bannie
We will never agree; but don't you think those who ARE Masons know more about their activities than you do?

Not really because there's enough information out there to investigate if one is interested, plus I know several Masons that have told me some pretty bizarre stuff. Of course, doubt anyone here would believe me since it would be coming from a Catholic.

163 posted on 07/20/2006 3:57:15 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: nopardons

Exactly so and that poster owes ALL Masons, living and dead and all of their extended families a PUBLIC apology!

Nope. I don't worship the founding fathers. At least the Masons in America didn't follow their foreign counterparts into the innumerable murderous rampages.

My Swedish great-grandfather was a Mason, but it's not my job to judge his or anyone else's souls.

I reject, condemne and anathematize everything Freemasonry stands for.


164 posted on 07/20/2006 3:58:45 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: nopardons

Exactly so and that poster owes ALL Masons, living and dead and all of their extended families a PUBLIC apology!

Nope. I don't worship the founding fathers. At least the Masons in America didn't follow their foreign counterparts into the innumerable murderous rampages.

My Swedish great-grandfather was a Mason, but it's not my job to judge his or anyone else's souls.

I reject, condemn and anathematize everything Freemasonry stands for.


165 posted on 07/20/2006 3:58:52 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: Youngstown

Worried about Masons? Worry about this. Italians not replacing themselves. Italy will become a Muslim country before the Masons ever get a chance to drive those funny little cars around Rome...


166 posted on 07/20/2006 3:59:58 PM PDT by ChEng (ay)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Bill Clinton is a Freemason, say no more. His persona sums up Freemasonry's belief system.


167 posted on 07/20/2006 4:00:03 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Is Jack Chick a freemason? :-)

No, he's a nut, LOL! But you better not get too chummy with him, Invincibly Ignorant. I hear from Protestant circles he's a raging anti-Semite.

168 posted on 07/20/2006 4:01:02 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: nopardons

Dear nopardons,

"Yes, Freemasonry DOES teach something counter to Catholic teachings..."

If that is true, it is reason enough for Catholics not to join Masonry.

"...that all men are equal and that men of good character should be viewed as 'brothers'."

Actually, Catholicism teaches that all are created in the image and likeness of God, and in this way, all are equal. What we do not believe is that all men are created equal in terms of their natural and supernatural gifts, station in life, etc.

However, it's fair to say that Masonry tends to discount the Christian revelation as being authoritative and absolutely true. Its belief in the divinity is proved exclusively through natural revelation. Of course, this is understandable for an organization that tries to appeal to theists of every stripe. However, the overemphasis on natural revelation, to the exclusion of Divine revelation, is not something that the Catholic Church can accept. For Catholics, that's enough not to belong to Masonry.

I've discussed Masonic history with friends who are Masons, including one fellow who has researched Masonic history pretty thoroughly. I think one thing that most Catholics don't understand is that Masonry isn't like Catholicism, in that it isn't a monolithic movement with a unified central authority. My understanding is that there are different branches of Masonry, and that not all branches even agree who's in and who's out (even you allude to these facts).

Thus, one should be careful about holding all Masons responsible for the actions of some masons.

My Masonic friend has helped me explore a little some of the more sensationalist charges against Masonic ceremonials, especially those related to satanism. I've seen a significant amount of source documents concerning Masonic ceremonials as a result. My friend has actually given me a very old, out-of-date book showing the ceremonials for the degrees from one of the main rites (it's at work, so don't ask me any details right now - I just don't have the book handy). In perusing the volume, frankly, I found it difficult to uphold charges of satanism, or even explicitly anti-Christian teaching. As well, I didn't find the purported anti-Catholic oaths I've read on the Internet. I found some of the material sometimes quoted by anti-Masonic folks, but it was clear to me that it had been quoted out of context.

In fact, in some of the ceremonials, the imagery is actually explicitly Christian, and at times, even Catholic.

I'm a Catholic, and I'd never ever join the Masons, but these more fantastic charges haven't been sustained by my own research. Of course, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. As well, I haven't looked at all the ceremonials used at all times by all rites.

However, the more general charge of Masonic anti-Catholicism is more readily sustained. It's true that there are lodges in Europe that have been virulently anti-Catholic. My Masonic friend tells me that those groups weren't "real Masons," but the problem with not having a central authority is that to the outsider, all you have is competing claims of legitimacy from each group. To this outsider, they all look like Masons to me, so I'm inclined to think they're all Masons, as there isn't any Masonic "pope" to excommunicated them.

As well, in the United States, Masons corporately pushed for the anti-Catholic Blaine amendments that litter the constitutions of many states, preventing any state government funds from ever accruing to the benefit of Catholic schools. "Rum, Romanism, and rebellion!!"

In the Northwest, Masons pushed to actually ban Catholic schools, but were smacked down by the Supreme Court. Interestingly, the legal doctrines established from these cases now form the basis for constitutional law interpretation related to homeschooling.

And of course, another poster has cited the anti-Catholic deeds of Mexican Masons.

Now, it's true that probably most Masons are not (at least any longer) openly anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholic bigotry is less acceptable, and less pronounced today than, say, a hundred or a hundred fifty years ago. It's also true that many Masons a century and a half ago who were likely anti-Catholic were anti-Catholic because American culture was largely anti-Catholic, not because they were Masons.

And some will defend by saying that what some Masons did shouldn't be ascribed to all Masons. That's fair enough, but the fact is that a lot of Masons, and a lot of Masonic organizations, at a lot of times, have been anti-Catholic. I believe that the anti-Catholicism has largely abated.

However, as a devout Catholic, I don't really have any interest in a movement with the degree of anti-Catholic history that the Masons have generally.


sitetest


169 posted on 07/20/2006 4:02:44 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: FJ290
No, he's a nut, LOL! But you better not get too chummy with him, Invincibly Ignorant. I hear from Protestant circles he's a raging anti-Semite.

I hear he reads Foxes book of Martyrs everyday too. :-)

170 posted on 07/20/2006 4:04:25 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: ChEng
Worried about Masons? Worry about this. Italians not replacing themselves. Italy will become a Muslim country before the Masons ever get a chance to drive those funny little cars around Rome...

Hmm..they are building Mosques right here in America. According to MIT, there are over 2,000 Mosques in the United States today.

171 posted on 07/20/2006 4:04:43 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
I hear he reads Foxes book of Martyrs everyday too. :-)

I know, he probably sleeps with it under his pillow at night.

172 posted on 07/20/2006 4:05:41 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Redleg Duke

A zealot. Perhaps your ad hominem attack reveals your bigotry and ignorance.

Give me a break. I'm just someone who takes my faith seriously. I stand by my and supporting a bigoted anti-Catholic organization such as Freemasonry is equivalent to Jews supporting the Aryan Nations or Nazi Party.

Perhaps they guys and gals in the Blue Lodges sit around drinking a few, but they know nothing about the higher degrees' hostility to Catholicism in particular. Any "Catholic" who joins the Masons is no longer a Catholic.

You should educate yourself a bit about the role the Masonic fraternity has played in persecuting Catholics and the Catholic Church for over 200 years.

Unless of you are afraid of what you might learn.


173 posted on 07/20/2006 4:08:01 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: Eastbound

In a word, denial!


174 posted on 07/20/2006 4:11:32 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: pravknight; nopardons; uglybiker

No, he is not a Freemason.

He was associated with DeMolay in his youth, which is a Masonic youth affiliate. He never became a Mason.

Nice try


175 posted on 07/20/2006 4:18:26 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: nopardons

Intolerant. That's just what Freemasonry is.

Masons only tolerate people who think they way they do, i.e. Truth is Relative.

"Catholics were forbidden to go inside another religions' church or temple; even to attend a funeral or a wedding, where they were not asked to participate in any religious activities. They couldn't even go into a church hall to attend an MYF ( Methodist Youth Fellowship ) dance, where absolutely NOTHING religious was going on."

Big deal. Who are you to judge? Who made you God? The Catholics weren't bothering you. They weren't, back then, marching to your home with torches, seeking to burn your home down because you weren't Catholic.

St. Paul teaches that adherence to heresy = spiritual death.
The Catholic Church was being charitable to the souls of its
adherents. Outside the Church there is no salvation, and any Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church knowing it is the unique Church of Christ cannot be saved.

Period. Your anti-Catholic bigotry is showing. We believe what we believe, and you can keep your relativism.


176 posted on 07/20/2006 4:19:30 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: sitetest; nopardons; uglybiker

"However, as a devout Catholic, I don't really have any interest in a movement with the degree of anti-Catholic history that the Masons have generally."

There are many Catholic members of my Lodge. Are you to say that because of the Catholic history of Anti-Masonry, that I am not to associate with them or have interest in the Catholic Church, which I believe to be a force for good?


177 posted on 07/20/2006 4:21:45 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: pravknight

BILL CLINTON IS NOT A MASON. THAT IS A LIE!


178 posted on 07/20/2006 4:24:24 PM PDT by oldtimer
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To: 5Madman2
There are many Catholic members of my Lodge. Are you to say that because of the Catholic history of Anti-Masonry, that I am not to associate with them or have interest in the Catholic Church, which I believe to be a force for good?

Ahemm... those "Catholics" aren't being very good Catholics by disobeying the Church. They should be in the Knights of Columbus, not your organization.

179 posted on 07/20/2006 4:25:36 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: FJ290
ohmygosh.

That's slapping the "catholic" card down on the table.

It won't work. I have no prejudice against Catholics, and to invoke that sort of excuse seems rather childish.
180 posted on 07/20/2006 4:29:13 PM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: ChEng

The Masons have been undermining Italian Catholicism ever since Garibaldi helped establish the Republic of Italy.

Italy is in danger of becoming Muslim because of the prevalence of Masonic anticlericalism over the past approximately 150 years.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/garibaldi_g/garibaldi.html


181 posted on 07/20/2006 4:30:03 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: oldtimer
BILL CLINTON IS NOT A MASON. THAT IS A LIE!

I don't think Pravknight was deliberately telling a lie about that. There are some websites that say he is, others that say he isn't. One says he was in the DeMolay Youth Group, but never actually became a Freemason.

182 posted on 07/20/2006 4:31:02 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: 5Madman2

He was associated with DeMolay in his youth >>>

you are right, Clintoon was never a mason, as a matter of fact, only 14 US presidents were masons.


183 posted on 07/20/2006 4:33:04 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: bannie
ohmygosh. That's slapping the "catholic" card down on the table. It won't work. I have no prejudice against Catholics, and to invoke that sort of excuse seems rather childish.

I don't mean to be rude, but would people kindly put up a little bit of a text that they are talking about. I am discussing issues with several people in here so I don't know what you are referring to madam.

184 posted on 07/20/2006 4:33:42 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: FJ290; nopardons; uglybiker

Ya know, my boss is belongs to the Knights of Columbus, and I know many others. We all honor each others Fraternities for the good they do. There may be some "Interservice" rivalry, but I have never known a Mason or a Knight to bad mouth the other like you and others on this thread have done to Masons.

You all could learn from the Knights


185 posted on 07/20/2006 4:34:35 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: FJ290
Of course, doubt anyone here would believe me since it would be coming from a Catholic.

ohmygosh. That's slapping the "catholic" card down on the table. It won't work.

I have no prejudice against Catholics, and to invoke that sort of excuse seems rather childish.

186 posted on 07/20/2006 4:37:39 PM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: pravknight

Bill Clintoon was never a freemason, as a child he was in the youth group called DeMolay. That's it. Only 14 US presidents were freemasons, Gerald Ford was the last president who was a freemason.


187 posted on 07/20/2006 4:38:32 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Coleus; nopardons; uglybiker; oldtimer

"you are right, Clintoon was never a mason, as a matter of fact, only 14 US presidents were masons"

I guess that shoots down the "Grand Masonic/Illuminati/Trilateral theory, now, doesn't it? How many others theories of the same ilk are false?


188 posted on 07/20/2006 4:38:52 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: Coleus; nopardons; uglybiker; oldtimer

GW Bush is a Freemason


189 posted on 07/20/2006 4:39:59 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: 5Madman2

Your ignorance of history is telling.


190 posted on 07/20/2006 4:41:01 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: dixiechick2000
DeMolay is a youth group for children. It has nothing to do with and adult joining the freemasons. Bill Clintoon was in DeMolay yet was never a freemason, only 14 US presidents were freemasons, the last being Gerald Ford.
191 posted on 07/20/2006 4:42:40 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: 5Madman2
Maybe we just get tired of being attacked by KC's etc., and react to it.

You guys need to get rid of your queer Priests so you can be free to attack the Freemasons.

192 posted on 07/20/2006 4:43:08 PM PDT by oldtimer
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To: 5Madman2

Quite a story-one that does not need to be forgotten-or diminished by idiots that equate Masons to Nazis.

>>Your ignorance of history is telling. Perhaps you should investigate the role Freemasonry played in the slaughter of Mexican Catholics during the Mexican Revolution of the 1910s and 1920s.

Maybe your insular American Freemasonry hasn't resorted to physical violence, but it has historically used the courts to undermine the Catholic Church in America.


193 posted on 07/20/2006 4:43:16 PM PDT by pravknight (Liberalism under the guise of magisterial teaching is still heresy)
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To: 5Madman2
I'm shocked by the rabid contempt some of these other FReepers have for the Masons. I have no contempt for the Knights of Columbus...or for the Catholic Church, and I don't understand these feelings toward such totally magnanimous organizations as those which are associated with the F&AM.

These guys are reading too many Illuminati books--or listening to Art Bell too much?
194 posted on 07/20/2006 4:43:43 PM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: 5Madman2
You all could learn from the Knights.

How do you know you aren't talking to some Knights of Columbus, LOL! There are several on this thread. I'll let you guess which ones.

195 posted on 07/20/2006 4:45:28 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: 5Madman2

GW Bush is a Freemason
>>

If he is it's the best kept secret in town, until I see it documented I will say that you are wrong. He is a member of the Skull and Bones which is documented, he being a freemason is not documented and not mentioned in any official biography. There were only 14 US presidents who were freemasons, Gerald Ford was the last.


196 posted on 07/20/2006 4:47:20 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: pravknight

Your stupidity is telling.

Ignorance is a condition. Stupidity is a lifestyle

Have a nice day


197 posted on 07/20/2006 4:48:04 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: oldtimer
Maybe we just get tired of being attacked by KC's etc., and react to it.

You guys need to get rid of your queer Priests so you can be free to attack the Freemasons.

Ouch! Well, we are trying and I do agree with you that that needs to be stopped.

198 posted on 07/20/2006 4:48:11 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: bannie

Both


199 posted on 07/20/2006 4:50:15 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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To: FJ290

If you are one, you dishonor the Fraternity that I have known very honorable men to be a part of.


200 posted on 07/20/2006 4:51:40 PM PDT by 5Madman2 (There is no such thing as an experienced suicide bomber)
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