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Portiuncula Indulgence can be obtained this Sunday
Catholic News Agency ^ | August 4, 2006

Posted on 08/05/2006 2:58:47 PM PDT by NYer

Assisi, Aug. 04, 2006 (CNA) - This Sunday Catholics can obtain the Portiuncula Indulgence by visiting any Franciscan parish or chapel around the world.

In the summer of 1216 while praying in the Portiuncula chapel outside of Assisi, St. Francis was inspired to travel to Rome and ask the Pope for an unheard-of privilege: the granting of a plenary indulgence.

Pope Honorius III granted the indulgence as a sign of the greatness of God’s love for humanity.  August 2nd was established as the date to receive the “Great Pardon of Assisi.”  Eventually, the Church modified the conditions and said the faithful could obtain the indulgence either on August 2nd or on the following Sunday by visiting any Franciscan parish or chapel throughout the world. The conditions for gaining the indulgence include praying the Our Father and the Creed, as well as receiving the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist, and praying for the intentions of the Holy Father.


TOPICS: Activism; Catholic; Current Events; Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: assisi; catholic; feastofpardon; indulgence; portiuncula; stfrancis; thefeastofpardon
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1 posted on 08/05/2006 2:58:48 PM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...


According to a legend, the existence of which can be traced back with certainty only to 1645, the little chapel of the Portiuncola was erected under Pope Liberius (352-66) by hermits from the Valley of Josaphat, who had brought thither relics from the grave of the Blessed Virgin. The same legend relates that the chapel passed into the possession of St. Benedict in 516. It was known as Our Lady of the Valley of Josaphat or of the Angels -- the latter title referring, according to some, to Our Lady's ascent into heaven accompanied by angels on the Solemnity of the Assumption. However, a better founded opinion attributes the name to the singing of angels which had been frequently heard there.

 
The Portiuncola today is a town and parish situated about three-quarters of a mile from Assisi. The town, numbering about 2000 inhabitants and officially known as Santa Maria degli Angeli, has grown up around the basilica of Our Lady of the Angels and the adjoining Franciscan monastery.

In the early 1200's, when St. Francis was repairing the small Portiuncola chapel, the basilica which now encloses the chapel was non-existent.  The humble Portiuncola was surrounded by the dense woods which covered the plain of Assisi.

FRANCIS'S CONNECTION WITH THE CHAPEL

Francis, who had previously repaired the chapels of San Damiano and San Pietro della Spina, was enraptured by the Portiuncola, a nick name which means "the little portion."  He loved its formal name--Santa Maria degli Angeli (Our Lady of the Angels), its poverty reflective in its nick name, its isolation and silence, and its proximity to the leper hospitals where he tended the pitiable residents.

On February 24, 2008, the Feast of St. Matthias, while hearing Mass at the Portiuncola, St. Francis of Assisi recognized his vocation in the day's Gospel.  Preach the Gospel. Take nothing for the journey.  Stay with those who are worthy in the towns you visit.

Francis made the Portiuncola the headquarters of his Order while refusing to accept ownership of it from the Benedictines.  Francis settled on presenting the Benedictines a yearly rent of a basket of fish, thereby feeling comfortable about using the chapel and the huts the friars built around it.

On October 3, 1226, after blessing his friars and asking to be laid naked on the ground so as to come to the Father in utter destitution, Francis died at the Portiuncola after recommending the chapel to the faithful protection and care of his brethren.

THE PORTIUNCOLA INDULGENCE

The Portiuncola Indulgence is a special favor granted by the Pope to St. Francis at his request.

One night in 1216, Francis awoke and felt a strong impulse to enter the chapel of the Portiuncola and pray.  While at prayer, Our Lord and Our Lady appeared to Francis and asked him what he desired.  Thinking of others and recognizing his own sinfulness, Francis spoke.  "0 God, although I m a great sinner, I beseech You to grant a full pardon of all sins to all who, having repented and confessed their sins, shall visit this church."

Our Lord answered, "Francis, you ask much, but you are worthy of greater things, and greater things you shall have."

The Lord granted the Indulgence and Pope Honorius III ratified it.  Originally the Indulgence was attached only to the Porticuncola.  However, subsequent Popes expanded the churches in which the Indulgence can be gained.

THE PORTIUNCOLA INDULGENCE TODAY

The Indulgence, if the person gaining it is free from every sin including venial sin, remits all the temporal punishment due to sin and may be applied to the person himself or herself or to a soul in Purgatory. If there is any adherence to sin in the person gaining the Indulgence, the Indulgence becomes partial.

The Indulgence may now be gained in any public or semi-public oratory in the world beginning from noon August 1 until midnight ending on August 2 (that is, any church or chapel open to the public). It cannot be gained in a private chapel. The person wishing to gain the Indulgence must fulfill the following requirements:

a.  Intend to gain the Indulgence

b. Be detached from all sin

c. While in the church pray one Our Father, one Apostle's Creed, and one other prayer of the individual's choice

d. Pray for the intentions of the Pope (prayerfully saying an Our Father and a Hail Mary will suffice although other prayers may be said)

e. Receive the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist within one week either before or after August 2.

May we all take advantage of the graces afforded by this Indulgence.

 

2 posted on 08/05/2006 3:09:06 PM PDT by NYer
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To: All

One additonal note. St. Francis loved the Porziuncola. When he was dieing, he asked the brothers to carry his litter down to the church and rest it against the outer wall. He told them that the Church was a very holy place and that our Lord and His blessed Mother watched over it. He assured them that whoever entered and prayed with a sincere heart, their prayers would be answered. In 1985, I visited the Porziuncola. There on bended knee I asked our Lord for a special favor. Nine months later, that prayer was answered in an extraordinary way. It was truly a miracle that I will treasure all the days of my life!


3 posted on 08/05/2006 3:21:39 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

>>THE PORTIUNCOLA INDULGENCE TODAY

The Indulgence, if the person gaining it is free from every sin including venial sin, remits all the temporal punishment due to sin and may be applied to the person himself or herself or to a soul in Purgatory. If there is any adherence to sin in the person gaining the Indulgence, the Indulgence becomes partial.

The Indulgence may now be gained in any public or semi-public oratory in the world beginning from noon August 1 until midnight ending on August 2 (that is, any church or chapel open to the public). It cannot be gained in a private chapel. The person wishing to gain the Indulgence must fulfill the following requirements:

a. Intend to gain the Indulgence

b. Be detached from all sin

c. While in the church pray one Our Father, one Apostle's Creed, and one other prayer of the individual's choice

d. Pray for the intentions of the Pope (prayerfully saying an Our Father and a Hail Mary will suffice although other prayers may be said)

e. Receive the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist within one week either before or after August 2.

May we all take advantage of the graces afforded by this Indulgence.<<
<<

1 John 1:5 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. "





4 posted on 08/05/2006 4:56:37 PM PDT by politicallyincarrect ( (Darwinism is the Religion of Atheists))
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To: politicallyincarrect

So can this indulgence be gained tomorrow (8/6)?


5 posted on 08/05/2006 6:54:06 PM PDT by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: All
the faithful could obtain the indulgence either on August 2nd or on the following Sunday by visiting any Franciscan parish or chapel throughout the world

Does "Franciscan parish" mean a parish dedicated to a Franciscan saint or a parish run by Franciscan friars?

6 posted on 08/05/2006 9:24:32 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: NYer

Ironically, yesterday I went on a mini-pilgrminage to the Franciscan shrine, "HolyLand USA" in Washington, D.C., created to allow Americans who couldn't afford to travel to the Holy Land to experience much of it through recreated relics, etc. (Although it sounds like a Catholic rip-off of Epcot Center, it pre-existed Epcot Center by seven decades.)

Not only that, but we spent considerable time joking about the need to "work off" all those years in purgatory we had accumulated.


7 posted on 08/06/2006 8:08:09 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Carolina
Catholic Caucus: Daily Mass Readings, 8-2-6, Opt. St. PeterJulianEymard,St.Eusebius,Our Lady/Angels
8 posted on 08/06/2006 8:10:52 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Here's some more photos:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Portiuncula&w=all

The photos taken by Real_Bostonian (that's me) were taken
at the Portiuncula Chapel in Hanover, Massachusetts. An ember from Hiroshima was used to light one of the candles there which has been burning since.


9 posted on 08/06/2006 3:41:25 PM PDT by Sparky1776
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To: Talking_Mouse

>>So can this indulgence be gained tomorrow (8/6)?<<

I hope you don't think that I posted the nonsense about "indulgence"... I was responding to it with Scripture verses that I thought might be helpful to the one that posted regarding the "indulgence".


10 posted on 08/06/2006 3:45:02 PM PDT by politicallyincarrect ( (Darwinism is the Religion of Atheists))
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To: politicallyincarrect
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

You posted this verse, can you tell me where it says I need to
say an Our Father; Hail Mary; receive Eucharist; or speak to anyone but God himself?

Can't I do this for myself, by myself?
11 posted on 08/06/2006 5:09:40 PM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: Rhadaghast

>>1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.<<

Amen!!

>>You posted this verse, can you tell me where it says I need to say an Our Father; Hail Mary; receive Eucharist; or speak to anyone but God himself? Can't I do this for myself, by myself?<<

Yes, I posted the verse for the same reason that you just did... To refute the nonsense of the "Portuiuncula Indulgence"... NOT to provide any support for it...

Unfortunately, any resemblance of the doctrines and teachings held by the so-called "Catholic Church" and Biblical theology is hard to find..



12 posted on 08/08/2006 7:53:26 AM PDT by politicallyincarrect ( (Darwinism is the Religion of Atheists))
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To: politicallyincarrect

Yes; that is what I could have figured out had I continued to read the thread. You made yourself clear, I missed it.
To quick to post...


13 posted on 08/09/2006 8:10:05 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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St. Francis of Assisi wanted everyone who visited the Portiuncula, Mother Church of his friars, to experience forgiveness and blessing. Such gifts are still found there. By Robert M. Stewart, O.F.M.

THE FEAST OF PARDON, as it is called in Italy, always attracts thousands of visitors and pilgrims to Assisi. According to legend and later historical fragments, St. Francis of Assisi persuaded Pope Honorius III to grant a plenary indulgence to all those who visited the Portiuncula on August 2 and confessed their sins.   It was on this date that the little church was dedicated under the patronage of St. Mary of the Angels. The Portiuncula, or Little Portion, is the cradle of the Franciscan Order, established as its headquarters by St. Francis himself. The Feast of Pardon has been celebrated there with great ceremony through the centuries. Knowing that the basilica, damaged by the 1997 earthquake, will still be open for this year’s feast reminds me once again of the blessings I received there just a few years ago.

Immediately after the early morning Mass, another friar and I set out from Rome for Assisi. For the first time, I would celebrate this feast of reconciliation in the city of Francis. In Assisi, Francis himself had experienced the pardon of the Lord, proclaimed God’s goodness and invited others to conversion at the Portiuncula. We planned to visit the little chapel within the Basilica of St. Mary of the Angels in the valley below Assisi and spend the rest of the day in the city.  Shortly after nine a.m. we arrived at our destination. The small chapel, one of the three churches repaired by the young Francis, had been all but abandoned in the wooded plain below Assisi in the 13th century. Now it is preserved in the center of the large basilica. That sacred place which was so dear to Francis that he asked the brothers never to leave it, that holy ground where Francis asked to be brought as he lay dying, continues to call countless pilgrims to prayer and to celebrate the Feast of the Pardon of Assisi.

I knelt on the stone floor and, with head bent, prayed in silence. As I emerged from the chapel and walked toward my friend, I was struck by the large number of people waiting to go to confession. At least 20 friars were hearing confessions, but long lines of people stood everywhere waiting to confess.  In an instant I changed my plans. My head might have questioned, but my heart now directed me. Without hesitation, I asked one of the friars if I could help with confessions. A bit surprised but very grateful for my offer, he thanked me and immediately went to set up two chairs in front of a side altar.



“Francis loved this spot more than any other in the world....It was here that he made such extraordinary progress”— St. Bonaventure


I apologized to my waiting friend for my change in plans and for leaving him alone for the day. While he thought I was crazy, he respected my decision to stay and hear confessions. We agreed to meet outside the basilica around 5:30 p.m. to witness the youth celebration before heading back to Rome.  I placed a stole over my habit, sat down and began to hear confessions as a long line of penitents immediately gathered. After I had been hearing confessions for an hour or so, I caught sight of another friar friend. Though a member of the Assisi province, he was studying in Rome. We had become friends over the years, having met when he was studying theology in Assisi. He did not look in my direction—or so I thought.  Minutes later he appeared at my side, between confessions, to ask if I was staying for lunch. When I said yes, he suggested that we meet in the sacristy at 12:30 since pranzo (the afternoon meal) would begin at 12:45. I agreed.

The basilica is closed from 12:30 to 2:30 daily, as is the custom throughout Italy. The two of us spoke excitedly as we moved through the ancient corridors and across the cloistered courtyard, quietly slipping into the full and festive refectory where the first-course plates were already being cleared. We hastened to prepare ourselves a plate of pasta and seat ourselves.  I couldn’t imagine a more joyous celebration of the feast. The meal, especially the pasta, was eccellente! I sat in the company of my brothers, happy to celebrate with them this Franciscan feast and truly grateful to share lunch with a good friend.  Even more than the meal, my brothers or my friend, the experience of the morning’s confessions filled me with an inexplicable joy and inner peace. Rarely had I heard so many confessions. Never had I sat hearing confessions for over three hours continuously in Italian. Yet I wasn’t tired. I felt overwhelmed with joy and peace, excited being at the Portiuncula for the feast and humbled by hearing the confessions of such faith-filled people.

After our meal, my friend and I went for a walk in the ancient, cloistered courtyard. We moved slowly round and round its perimeter. I asked him to hear my confession. Though initially reluctant, when he heard me explain that I wanted to express my sinfulness before one who knew me, he agreed. I prayed, confessed my sins and listened to his counsel. He prayed with me and absolved my sins. We exchanged a blessing of peace and parted. A profound peace flooded my being.  As I wound my way back through the corridors, I prayed in gratitude for the gift of the day. I returned to the basilica not to work but again to sit on holy ground, again to pray in that sacred place, once again to proclaim, to witness and to celebrate the mercy of God.

I donned my stole and sat down in that same old rickety chair. A long line formed immediately. I heard confession after confession. At times I spoke but a few words; other times I entered into conversation with the penitent. At times the confession of sins appeared somewhat rote, but more often the penitents evidenced such a sincere faith and profound penitence in their prayer for God’s forgiveness that I was edified and humbled.  Then, out of the hundreds in my line of penitents, there emerged one who would touch my very depths. I cannot remember the color of his hair, the shape of his face or the sound of his voice. Yet that penitent would so witness for me the transforming power of God’s love that I remember his very soul, that experience of grace.

Before me sat a man I guessed to be in his early 20’s, a young man with bowed head, an anonymous penitent who began (in Italiano), "Bless me, Father—" He faltered, whispering that he did not even know how long it had been, just that it had been years. I assured him that it did not matter how long it had been. It mattered only that he was there. I spoke with him about God’s love. I asked him to remember God’s promise of forgiveness and then to speak whatever sins he wanted to confess. He fell silent, head in hands.  I waited, not wanting to pressure him, trying to allow him the time he needed. Several times he started to stammer but fell again into silence.

Finally, he shook his head as if to say no and began to raise himself from the chair. As I looked into his tear-filled eyes, my heart went out to him in his pain. Gently I touched his arm, hoping to convey my concern and to encourage him to speak. He sat again. Tears started to stream down his face as he blurted out that God could never forgive him.  He cried as he spoke about his sinfulness, how worthless a person he was, how he had hurt others, how he hated what he had done and who he was. He kept repeating that God could not forgive him as he mentioned some of his sins and, with voice drifting off, added, "vendendo le droghe." I asked him to repeat his last phrase. Appearing somewhat startled, he began to apologize for having spoken so quickly that I hadn’t been able to understand.

If not my looks, certainly my accent betrayed that I was a foreigner. I tried to assure him that I thought I had understood, but asked again that he repeat his last phrase. Slowly, deliberately, gazing into my eyes, he repeated, "vendendo le droghe." He had said what I thought I had heard: "selling drugs." I had wanted to be sure.  His head fell, his eyes avoiding my gaze. He blurted out the feelings behind his tears—worthlessness and shame. He had done evil things for money. He had hurt children by selling drugs. How could God forgive him? How could anyone ever forgive him, love him, even look at him?

His tears became a torrent. I wanted only to listen lovingly, to pray with him honestly and sincerely, to minister to him God’s forgiveness. I reached out and took his hands in mine. Slowly, hesitantly, he raised his head and looked into my eyes.

As I held the hands of one who hated his very being, as I listened to a man who described his whole life as worthless, as I looked through my own tears upon the face of one who had come to the Portiuncula seeking the mercy of God, I saw before me another Francis. I saw before me not a 13th-century Francis but a desperate young man seeking to change his life. I saw not the merchant’s son seeking a knight’s glory and imprisoned in Perugia but rather a wayward son seeking self-glory and imprisoned by his own self-hatred. I saw not the Francis who in his Testament had written, "When I was in sin, the Lord led me...," but the Francis before me who had been led by the Lord to sit there and to pray, "Bless me, Father...."

Whence the image of Francis? It did not come from me. It came to me as gift in that moment of grace. The image presented itself and, informed by that vision, I began to speak with "my" Francis. I explained that centuries before a young man from Assisi, who later would be revered throughout the world, who touched countless lives through his gentle being, spoke similar words.  That same Francis, also in his early 20’s, sought to change the way he lived. He too felt worthless and separated from God. He too felt that he was "no good," speaking in his Testament about his entire life before his conversion as "when I was in sin."

I explained that we do not know why Francis so devalued his former life. I wondered aloud if Francis had perhaps killed someone in battle or felt overwhelmed by his own participation in war where so many lives had been lost. I explained how the details did not matter, but only that Francis thought of himself as worthless, that he experienced his own profound sinfulness. Like the young man before me now, Francis too felt worthless, alone, hating who he had become. Yet he came to know more profoundly God’s mercy, God’s forgiveness and love. I spoke about how Francis had wanted everyone to know God’s goodness and abundant love, how he had asked the pope specifically for this special indulgence so that people would be assured of God’s forgiveness, could celebrate God’s love and begin again to serve the Lord.

At times my Francis looked into my eyes and watched my tears. At times, he bowed his head and sobbed. I continued to speak to my Francis about Assisi’s Francis. I told him how Francis’ vision of his own life changed, how he turned to God and began to see people and all of creation differently, how it all began with him realizing that he was "in sin" but that God loved him. I reminded him that the God who had led Francis among the lepers had led him here to the basilica. God, who had shown mercy to this Francis, had already touched his heart in leading him to seek forgiveness. As St. Francis had done, so too could he now turn from sin and seek to follow in the footprints of the Lord. A prayerful, teary silence followed. Then he spoke. Tears again streamed down his face, but now he cried tears of joy. With a peaceful exuberance, he spoke about feeling new, cleansed, hopeful. He started to describe hopes and dreams. He wanted to change his life, to abandon all that had been and to find a way to help people.

I don’t know how long we talked. I do know that we were on sacred ground, in a holy place. The voice which had spewed self-hatred now reflected an inner peace. The eyes which had evidenced only pain and despair now sparkled with hope.  I witnessed the miracle of forgiveness. Before my eyes, grace transformed his soul. I beheld the power of grace opening his heart, healing his wounds, calling him forth. He now believed that even he could be forgiven by God.   He started to express thanks. I wondered aloud about my being there: the last-minute invitation, the change in plans, the chance that he should be in my line, the image of Francis given me. I expressed my belief that all is grace.  Hours later my friend appeared in the basilica and signaled for my attention. After many more confessions, I was able to break away and accompany him outside to witness the sea of young people gathered in the piazza.

Having been inside all day, I was surprised and delighted at how beautiful the late afternoon seemed. My friend reiterated that he thought I was crazy for hearing confessions all day and missing such a glorious day in Assisi. I smiled.  As we began our journey home, I tried to describe my celebration of the Feast of Pardon. For me, the whole day had been a gift. I could not have imagined a better celebration. He remained unconvinced. We rode for a while in prayerful silence. As I remembered the day, my heart filled with gratitude and I broke out in song, my friend joining me in singing Francis’ great canticle.

I suspect that words suffice only for those who have themselves glimpsed this experience of grace. Perhaps words speak most clearly to the hearts of those who have known the transforming power of God’s forgiving love.  Perhaps you will see beyond my young Francis, my moment in the basilica, to moments in your own life which have been times of grace, times when someone turned from being "in sin" to begin a new life in Christ. I hope you will be touched and blessed, know it to be holy ground, a sacred place. May you too visit a Portiuncula of your own to celebrate the feast of pardon, the gift of grace.

Robert M. Stewart, O.F.M., is an associate professor of theology at St. Bonaventure University in New York. He has a Ph.D. in theology from the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California.

The Portiuncula Indulgence:
Legend, Tradition and Rubrics

By Carol Ann Morrow
ST. FRANCIS SAID, "HOLY father, if it please your Holiness, my wish is that, because of the great things which God has done in this place, all those who shall come here with lowly and contrite hearts shall have remission of all their sins, and that there shall be no dispute about this." And the pope said, "I grant you that it shall be so."

This is the testimony of the Lord James, priest of Santa Lucia di Colle, given on August 14, 1277, and included in the fourth revised edition of St. Francis of Assisi: Writings and Early Biographies, often called the Omnibus. It’s good to have, since nowhere in Francis’ own writings or in the early biographies by Thomas of Celano and St. Bonaventure, or even in the whimsical Fioretti, is the Portiuncula Indulgence mentioned.

And it is an incredible story. Prior to this indulgence with its simple requirements, the only such indulgence was offered for participation in a Crusade! And it was known only by word of mouth until 1921, according to Franciscan scholar Murray Bodo, O.F.M.

And now the privilege extends beyond the Portiuncula to churches throughout the world. The indulgence—a remission of the temporal punishment for sin if all the conditions are fulfilled—may be gained by the faithful from noon August 1 to midnight August 2 through a devout visit to a parish church, a cathedral or some other oratory (such as a chapel of the Franciscans). An Our Father, the Creed and another prayer of one’s choice are to be prayed. Reception of the sacraments of Penance and Eucharist, as well as prayer for the intention of the Holy Father, are to happen within several days of the visit (see Enchiridion of Indulgences, especially #65).

In Tales of St. Francis: Ancient Tales for Contemporary Living (St. Anthony Messenger Press, 1992), Father Bodo writes, "Though present Church practice does not emphasize the granting of indulgences, especially those attached to a particular place rather than to the practice of virtue, thousands of pilgrims still flock to Assisi on the day of the Portiuncula Pardon, some crawling on their knees through the large basilica to the Portiuncula chapel, which rests under the central dome."

Francis would have been pleased that all who come with lowly and contrite hearts are finding pardon.

Shrine of the Porziuncola The Portiuncula Chapel

August Saints

Information received from the Catholic Community Forum as well as the Divine Mercy Podcast.

What is Portiuncula?
The following is an excerpt from Major Life of St. Francis by St. Bonaventure.


" The Portiuncula was an old church dedicated to the Virgin Mother of God which was abandoned . Francis had great devotion to the Queen of the world and when he saw that the church was deserted, he began to live there constantly in order to repair it. He heard that the Angels often visited it, so that it was called Saint Mary of the Angels, and he decided to stay there permanently out of reverence for the angels and love for the Mother of Christ.  He loved this spot more than any other in the world. It was here he began his religious life in a very small way; it is here he came to a happy end. When he was dying, he commended this spot above all others to the friars, because it was most dear to the Blessed Virgin.

This was the place where Saint Francis founded his Order by divine inspiration and it was divine providence which led him to repair three churches before he founded the Order and began to preach the Gospel.  This meant that he progressed from material things to more spiritual achievements, from lesser to greater, in due order, and it gave a prophetic indication of what he would accomplish later.

As he was living there by the church of Our Lady, Francis prayed to her who had conceived the Word, full of grace and truth, begging her insistently and with tears to become his advocate. Then he was granted the true spirit of the Gospel by the intercession of the Mother of mercy and he brought it to fruition.  He embraced the Mother of Our Lord Jesus with indescribable love because, as he said, it was she who made the Lord of majesty our brother, and through her we found mercy. After Christ, he put all his trust in her and took her as his patroness for himself and his friars."

Today the chapel of Portiuncula is situated inside the Basilica of Saint Mary of the Angels roughly 5 km from Assisi, Italy.

The Indulgence:

"The Portiuncula indulgence is the first plenary indulgence that was ever granted in the Church. There were indeed indulgences at all times, but they were only partial, and only a partial remission of the temporal punishments could be obtained by them. But, as already remarked, he who gains the Portiuncula indulgence is freed from all temporal punishments and becomes as pure as after holy baptism. This was also the reason why Pope Honorius was astonished when St. Francis petitioned for the confirmation of this indulgence, for such an indulgence, up to that time, bad been entirely unknown. It was only after he had come to the conviction that Jesus Christ himself wished it, that he granted the petition of the saint and confirmed the indulgence" (
Source)

August 2nd is the feast of Portiuncula. A plenary indulgence is available to anyone who will

1. Receive sacramental confession (8 days before of after)
2. Receive the Holy Eucharist at Holy Mass on August 2nd
3. Enter a parish church and, with a contrite heart, pray the Our Father, Apostles Creed, and a pray of his/her own choosing for the intentions of the Pope.

Please tell every Catholic person you know that remission of the punishment for all sins committed from the day of baptism to the reception of the indulgence is available.

More Information:


If you want to read more about the feast of Portiuncula, please visit this website: Catholic Under the Hood.  Fr. Seraphim Beshoner is a third order Franciscan priest who does the podcast, Catholic Under the Hood, and he recently discussed this feast on one of his shows. Please check it out and pass the word along to everyone.  May the Merciful Jesus fill your heart with His gentle peace!  Note: An indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin. More information can be found at Indulgences.


 
14 posted on 07/17/2007 7:59:47 PM PDT by Coleus (Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: Coleus; nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Everyone,
This is a post from last year, but needs to be bumped and done by all of us. I will post little tidbits from the post if the succeeding three posts.

Catholic Prayer Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Prayer Ping List.

15 posted on 07/19/2007 4:57:26 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All

From the story in #14

I witnessed the miracle of forgiveness. Before my eyes, grace transformed his soul. I beheld the power of grace opening his heart, healing his wounds, calling him forth. He now believed that even he could be forgiven by God. ~Robert M. Stewart, O.F.M


16 posted on 07/19/2007 4:59:34 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All

“The Portiuncula indulgence is the first plenary indulgence that was ever granted in the Church. There were indeed indulgences at all times, but they were only partial, and only a partial remission of the temporal punishments could be obtained by them. But, as already remarked, he who gains the Portiuncula indulgence is freed from all temporal punishments and becomes as pure as after holy baptism.


17 posted on 07/19/2007 5:00:06 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All

August 2nd is the feast of Portiuncula. A plenary indulgence is available to anyone who will

1. Receive sacramental confession (8 days before of after)
2. Receive the Holy Eucharist at Holy Mass on August 2nd
3. Enter a parish church and, with a contrite heart, pray the Our Father, Apostles Creed, and a pray of his/her own choosing for the intentions of the Pope.

Please tell every Catholic person you know that remission of the punishment for all sins committed from the day of baptism to the reception of the indulgence is available.


18 posted on 07/19/2007 5:00:42 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Rhadaghast
If you are not Catholic, this issue is...well, a non-issue for you, so why worry?
19 posted on 07/19/2007 5:51:02 PM PDT by blu (All grammar and punctuation rules are *OFF* for the "24" thread.)
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To: Rhadaghast

And my most humble apologies for pinging you to a year old post! Sorry ‘bout that!


20 posted on 07/19/2007 5:53:29 PM PDT by blu (All grammar and punctuation rules are *OFF* for the "24" thread.)
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To: NYer
He assured them that whoever entered and prayed with a sincere heart, their prayers would be answered. In 1985, I visited the Porziuncola. There on bended knee I asked our Lord for a special favor. Nine months later, that prayer was answered in an extraordinary way.

It wasn't where you prayed that mattered. It was the words in your heart and the goodness of Him who answered your prayer.

21 posted on 07/19/2007 6:01:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What authority do you have to tell us whether some places are more sacred than others?

-A8

22 posted on 07/19/2007 7:48:39 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
You asked me not to post to you, but now you're posting to me. Hmmm...

A building made of brick and mortar and gilding is not sacred. But the RCC seems to worship all sorts of things we're admonished not to fall down to so it's no surprise you'd ask this question. It's just more idolatry.

People make up the church, not the other way around.

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." -- 1 Peter 2:5-6

What authority do you have to tell us whether some places are more sacred than others?

The Holy Scriptures tell all those with ears to hear.

"Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." -- Acts 17:16-31

And for good measure...

"There is no biblical norm as to where, and where not, the church should meet. The central fact is that the early concept of the church had no connection with a church building. The church was something else: a group of Christians drawn together by the Holy Spirit in a place where they worked together in a certain form..." -- Francis Schaeffer, "The Church at the End of the Twentieth Century."

23 posted on 07/19/2007 10:22:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I never asked you not to post to me. (I'm not sure where you got that idea.)

I asked you what authority you have to tell us whether some places are more sacred than others, and you responded by quoting two passages of Scripture and Schaeffer. I didn't ask what authority Schaeffer has, but what authority *you* have. Any heretic can quote Scripture, as St. Vincent of Lerins shows. Even the devil can quote Scripture, and he has no authority in the Church. So quoting Scripture does not show that you have any authority to say whether some places are more sacred than others.

-A8

24 posted on 07/20/2007 6:51:56 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
So quoting Scripture does not show that you have any authority to say whether some places are more sacred than others.

As you say, any man can quote Scripture. But the "authority" (since you're looking for authority) is not in the action of quoting the words nor in the man quoting it. The "authority" resides in the Scripture itself through the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

If the Scripture quoted to you does not speak to your heart and awaken a certain Godly understanding in you, then perhaps you might pray that the Holy Spirit gives you ears to hear and a new heart with which to know your salvation.

Protestants do not believe in magical incantations, unlike in the RCC which teaches that specific words have some intrinsic mystical power in and of themselves (i.e. the priest using the "correct words" during the Lord's Supper in order to make the mass "valid.")

In Scripture, the words are used as the means by which the Holy Spirit makes Himself known to us "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

RCs bow to the "authority" of their magisterium and all the "authority" the magisterium doles out to various saints, bishops, relics and rites.

OTOH, Bible-believing Protestants bow to the "authority" of Christ alone revealed to us through the word of God. And this we know by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit who speaks to our hearts and minds through Scripture and prayer.

Please show me in Scripture where God tells us that after Christ's resurrection some dirt is more sacred than other dirt and some buildings are more sacred than other buildings. Because the Scripture I quoted to you contradicts those faulty beliefs.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things...

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" -- Acts 17:24-25;29-30

It looks like from these verses in Acts, you and I are called to repent of the false belief that buildings and dirt and even physical objects like statues and icons are "sacred."

It's just more idolatry, since all men are prone to creating idols of their own imaginings.

"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20

Was Isaiah wrong?

25 posted on 07/20/2007 9:47:32 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
But the "authority" ... is not in the action of quoting the words nor in the man quoting it. The "authority" resides in the Scripture itself through the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

Your position, as best I can tell, is that there is no magisterial authority; only Scripture has authority. So, your statement above is just your opinion. Millions of people have opinions, and yours is just one of the millions, no more authoritative than Benny Hinn's or Joseph Smith's or Pat Robertson's.

-A8

26 posted on 07/20/2007 2:11:22 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
Your statement seems to presume there is no true and real authority.

My point is that there is most definitely an authority. I believe that authority is the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture, as expained in Scripture and understood by all those with ears to hear.

RCs, OTOH, identify this authority as the magisterium.

27 posted on 07/20/2007 2:19:13 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8

Was Isaiah wrong?


28 posted on 07/20/2007 2:19:46 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8
WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
Chapter XX
Of Christian Liberty, and
Liberty of Conscience

I. The liberty which Christ has purchased for believers under the Gospel consists in their freedom from the guilt of sin, and condemning wrath of God, the curse of the moral law;[1] and, in their being delivered from this present evil world, bondage to Satan, and dominion of sin;[2] from the evil of afflictions, the sting of death, the victory of the grace, and everlasting damnation;[3] as also, in their free access to God,[4] and their yielding obedience unto Him, not out of slavish fear, but a child-like love and willing mind.[5] All which were common also to believers under the law.[6] But, under the New Testament, the liberty of Christians is further enlarged, in their freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law, to which the Jewish Church was subjected;[7] and in greater boldness of access to the throne of grace,[8] and in fuller communications of the free Spirit of God, than believers under the law did ordinarily partake of.[9]

II. God alone is Lord of the conscience,[10] and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in any thing, contrary to His Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship.[11] So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience:[12] and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.[13]

III. They who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, do practice any sin, or cherish any lust, do thereby destroy the end of Christian liberty, which is, that being delivered out of the hands of our enemies, we might serve the Lord without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our life.[14]

IV. And because the powers which God has ordained, and the liberty which Christ has purchased are not intended by God to destroy, but mutually to uphold and preserve one another, they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God.[15] And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity (whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation), or to the power of godliness; or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ has established in the Church, they may lawfully be called to account,[16] and proceeded against, by the censures of the Church. and by the power of the civil magistrate.[17]

The numbered Scriptural proofs are found on the linked website.

29 posted on 07/20/2007 2:39:32 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Your statement seems to presume there is no true and real authority.

I have no idea how you derived that conclusion. I believe that Scripture is authoritative. I also believe, that the part of Apostolic Tradition that was not recorded in Scripture is authoritative. I also believe in a living and authoritative magisterium. So according to my position, there are *three* "true and real" authorities.

I believe that authority is the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture, as explained in Scripture and understood by all those with ears to hear.

That's almost exactly what the Mormons told me. When I rejected the Mormon teaching, they told me that I didn't have ears to ear. Before that, when I rejected the Health and Wealth gospel of some Pentecostals, they told me that I didn't have the ears to ear. Just recently some Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door, and when I started refuting their position they essentially said that I didn't have ears to ear what the Spirit is saying.

The position you are describing is a form of gnosticism, similar to Montanism. Each person follows what he or she believes the Spirit is speaking through their own private interpretation of Scripture. It is pure individualism that hides behind the appearance of submission to Scripture. But by making oneself the chief interpreter of Scripture for oneself, one is in fact one's own authority. That is why there are so many Protestant denominations; each person is his own authority. If he doesn't agree with what his pastor is saying, he just goes and joins another church that teaches what he thinks, or starts one up if necessary.

-A8

30 posted on 07/20/2007 2:47:27 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Was Isaiah wrong?

Of course not. Your interpretation/application, on the other hand, is a different story.

-A8

31 posted on 07/20/2007 2:48:39 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What authority does the Westminster Confession of Faith have? Why should I give a hoot what it says?

-A8

32 posted on 07/20/2007 3:03:20 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
The position you are describing is a form of gnosticism, similar to Montanism. Each person follows what he or she believes the Spirit is speaking through their own private interpretation of Scripture.

LOL. Only according to an authoritarian who bows to a word-of-mouth magisterium.

And only if every person believed something different. But they don't as evidenced by the cohesion of the Westminster Confessions. Protestants try the spirits, rightly divide the word of God, compare Scripture with Scripture and thankfully are given to understand the truth as written for all to see in the Bible.

It's just not that difficult. It's all there in black and white. And none of it includes "another Christ" priestcraft, a magical metamorphosis of the Lord's Supper, praying to idols, worshiping and/or venerating Mary, fantasies like purgatory and limbo, and most especially Scripture precludes a works-based salvation which is at the heart of the RCC.

33 posted on 07/20/2007 3:17:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8
I also believe, that the part of Apostolic Tradition that was not recorded in Scripture is authoritative.

It's awfully difficult to prove a negative or substantiate something that, by definition, doesn't exist except in your word-of-mouth opinions.

I'll rely on the written word of God. It hasn't failed me yet.

34 posted on 07/20/2007 3:20:52 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8
What authority does the Westminster Confession of Faith have?

It's authority, always second to and dependent on Scripture, comes from the fact that every word is founded on Biblical truths.

Unlike the RCC catechism which is filled with extra-Biblical suppositions, conjectures, fabrications and outright fantasies.

35 posted on 07/20/2007 3:24:43 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It looks like from these verses in Acts, you and I are called to repent of the false belief that buildings and dirt and even physical objects like statues and icons are "sacred."

You mean this verse in Acts: "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground."? (Acts 7:33)

Or this verse in Acts: "so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them." (Acts 19:12)

In Matthew 23:17, Jesus says, "You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" So Jesus agrees that the gold is sacred.

St. Peter says, "We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." (2 Peter 1:18) So St. Peter believed that mountain upon which Jesus was transfigured was sacred.

-A8

36 posted on 07/20/2007 3:29:14 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It's just not that difficult.

You are living in a fantasy world. If it were really true that "It's just not that difficult", then all the Protestant denominations would not be divided. The facts refute you. Look around. You are in (or trying to join) the OPC, which has about 30,000 members. In your view the OPC is the denomination which, in your view, comes closest to getting it all right. So, out of all the millions and millions of Christians in the world, around 30,000 are getting it right, in your view. And yet you can claim with a straight face (I presume) that "It's just not that difficult." Dump a bucket of cold water over your head.

-A8

37 posted on 07/20/2007 3:34:25 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It's authority, always second to and dependent on Scripture, comes from the fact that every word is founded on Biblical truths.

All the Protestant denominations claim the same thing about their respective creeds and confessions. So are they all therefore authoritative? No. So obviously that is not sufficient to give the WCF any authority. Otherwise you will have to give the Baptist confessions authority, the Lutheran confessions authority, the Anglican confessions authority, etc.

-A8

38 posted on 07/20/2007 3:37:17 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I'll rely on the written word of God. It hasn't failed me yet.

But in your view it has failed 99.999% of the rest of Christendom, since they don't believe what the OPC teaches. You just got lucky, apparently, to be in that .001%. Amazing.

-A8

39 posted on 07/20/2007 3:39:50 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
We rightly divide the word of God and see what lines up with it. We may disagree, but there is only one truth and we all know that is the goal.

Have more trust in God and the power of the Holy Spirit to reach every man's heart whom the Lord desires.

"Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." -- 2 Timothy 1:13

We cannot hear Paul's words, but we can read them.

And Christ's words, too...

"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." — Matthew 15:13-14


40 posted on 07/20/2007 3:44:52 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
None of that shows that the WCF is authoritative (even derivatively).

-A8

41 posted on 07/20/2007 3:47:15 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
The truth is there is as much disagreement between Catholics themselves as there is among most mainline Protestant denominations.

The only way we can really settle any disagreement is to see what the Bible tells us about each item under discussion. And when we do this, we see firsthand how many grievous errors the RCC contains as opposed to Protestant churches who know enough to kneel to none but Christ.

42 posted on 07/20/2007 3:49:10 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8
And all those examples have been superseded by the only "holiness" and "sacredness" that matters -- Jesus Christ risen from the cross.

Keep your talisman and trinkets and scrapes of wood and soiled relics. "As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me." (Psalm 55:16).

43 posted on 07/20/2007 3:53:55 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear.


44 posted on 07/20/2007 3:54:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus

That place is beautiful.


46 posted on 07/20/2007 4:03:26 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary in '08.....Her PHONINESS is GENUINE !!!!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The truth is there is as much disagreement between Catholics themselves as there is among most mainline Protestant denominations.

First, that is an unsubstantiated falsehood. But it overlooks the fact that in the Catholic Church there is one recognized magisterial authority (i.e. the Pope), but in Protestantism each person is his own pope. So even though Catholics do disagree with each other on various matters, it does not change the fact that there is only one authoritative Catholic faith, the one promulgated by the Holy See, and all Catholics recognize the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church, otherwise they aren't Catholics. But there is no one Protestant faith. There are just thousands of Protestant opinions.

The only way we can really settle any disagreement is to see what the Bible tells us about each item under discussion.

By what authority do you make this claim? By what authority do you say: [This is how the disagreements must be settled.]? Tertullian shows here that your proposal has a loaded assumption built into it, namely, that there is no such thing as magisterial authority. But the Church, since the first century (read the epistles of St. Ignatius bishop of Antioch written around 107 AD, or the epistle of Clement bishop of Rome, written in the 90s) has taught and held and believed in the existence of a magisterial authority.

-A8

47 posted on 07/20/2007 4:06:49 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And all those examples have been superseded by the only "holiness" and "sacredness" that matters -- Jesus Christ risen from the cross.

Your interpretation/theology has no authority, because you have no authority. Your interpretation is just your opinion.

-A8

48 posted on 07/20/2007 4:11:15 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
For those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Exactly -- ultimately, Protestantism boils down to Gnosticism, secret knowledge. And Gnosticism is not only the first heresy the Church faced, it is the root heresy of all heresies (see here).

-A8

49 posted on 07/20/2007 4:19:09 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

If the church is the magisterium, how come it gets so much so wrong?


50 posted on 07/20/2007 7:12:48 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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