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To: kosta50

Sorry for the delayed reply; I have been putting in many overtime hours at work, and haven't quite felt up to many of my usual distractions (read: FR)

"Wow, that explains a lot. Besides, I imagine tat both are drawn from the older versions, yet, of St. Basil and St. James."

You are quite right in saying that the Mass of Gregory and Pius the Greats has older antecedents. After a cursory reading of the Liturgies of St Basil and St James, it looks like the Mass of Trent has a little more in common with James than it does with Basil. This is mostly a gut feeling, but parts of James, like the references to pre-Christian Patriarchal sacrifices have, seem to have more in common with the Roman Mass, which often draws out the way the Mass is the fulfillment of the pre-Christian worship--Abel, Abraham, Melchisedech. The Catholic Encyclopedia does a good job of examining the historical development, especially the early and Eastern Christian roots of the Roman Canon alone: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm

"So, where did the Novus Ordo come from? Or is ti just made eup of various litrugical traditions?"

You have just opened a whole can of worms, that the Lord, in his infinite mercy, spared the Orthodox Church. If you search the net, you will find so much of the material about this is highly polemical. I have, in going a away to college for the first time this year, just recieved a revival, so to speak, of faith and have just started examining liturgy in terms of history, theology, etc; so, in short, I think I'm trying to say, is, with me, the jury's out on pinning down the exact genesis of the Novus Ordo.

But I do have a few observations based on experience, and my own limited reading:

As for "liturgical traditions," certainly the new Mass contains ancient items such as the Kyrie, and the Creed, etc. However, I'm not sure if the Fathers who wrote it sat down and said "Let's put this here, because it is here in the Liturgy of St. So-and-So." Frankly, I'm not sure about stuff like that.

We can't really say the new Mass has its basis in the Tridentine Mass--it is a sharp break with the Mass that had been 15 and 16 hundred years in the making. However, in '65 there was an intermediate missal which simplified and shortened many of the prayers and introduced certain practices as options which have become essentially ubiquitous. (The text here: http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/)

However, this is not to say that the new Mass is totally without reference to the Tridentine. For instance for the Penitential Rite, the priest has the option of using part of the old dialogue: "Lord, show us your mercy...And grant us your salvation" or with the Sprinkling Rite: "Cleanse me with a hyssop"/"I saw the water flowing." And the Roman Canon is the only Eucharistic prayer permissible on all occasions. This being said, items such as these are optional in the Novus Ordo, whereas in the old, were (more or less) unchangeable. Moreover, these ancient and venerable parts are rarely used: I am a cradle Catholic and never even heard of the Roman Canon until this year at school when I went to Mass offered by an older priest. Also, for a Solemn Novus Ordo, the pattern for incensation are largely vestiges of the Tridentine Mass, but you will seldom find a Solemn Mass with the Novus Ordo (again, I had never seen one until this year).

Here is a great site which has the texts of the two Masses: http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Texts/Index/4

Forgive me the length of the post, and any errors contained herein. This is really my first foray into any sort of organized examination of the two Masses, so please be patient. I'm just beginning to read Pope Benedict's "The Spirit of the Liturgy," so I figure I'll have a better idea afterwards.


52 posted on 08/13/2006 7:52:51 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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To: tlRCta
Thank you for you informative reply and references (one of which – the intermediate Mass of 1965 – is a dead link, unfortunately).

Not so long ago, I purchased a book The Mass of the Early Christians (Mike Aquilina, Sunday Visitor Publishing), which actually contains parts of the Liturgy of St. James and others. It is a great book (just 200 pages in length, inexpensive) and I highly recommend it.

Based on the text supplied, the Great Litany starts with words resembling the Roman Mass "Peace be with you, and with your spirit, The Lord bless us all and sanctify us..."

The rest, however, is almost word by word as it is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (In peace let us pray to the Lord, Lord have mercy,From the peace that is from on high..." including the Trisagion (Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy immortal, have mercy on us" and close similarities, almost identical, are in the Eucharistic Prayer, the Communion Prayer ("Let us bow our heads to the Lord, To you O Lord,...One is Holy, one Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father, to whom be the glory to all eternity..."), all these are still to be found in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy unchanged.

So, while some parts of the Novus Ordo are to be found in the ancient Liturgy of St. James (such as "Holy, Holy, HOly, Lord Savaoth (of hosts), heaven and earth are full of Thy glory, Hosanna in the Highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest.") which is also found in Orthodox Divine Liturgy preceding Holy Communion, I am not sure which other parts, save for the introductory Kyrie eleison or God have mercy (which we Orthodox repeat constantly), are from St. James.

Again, the Tridentine Mass which NYer was kinf to include, had numerous elements that were clearly recognizable as one and the same Divine (Holy) Liturgy, which is not the case with NO, although allegedly NO (by content) doe snot resemble much of the Eastern tradition internally or externally (repeated signs of the cross, signing the entire Service, kissing the hand of the priest, holding tall candles during the reading of the Gospels, three steps to the altar, priest facing ad orientem, etc.)

If you learn more about this (and undoubtedly you will), sharing your knowledge will be most appreciated. One would imagine that the Western fathers in the 1960's stated good reasons how and why the Mass was changed. I am not sure where they are to be found.

53 posted on 08/13/2006 8:46:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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