Posted on 08/10/2006 6:22:46 PM PDT by Teófilo
There isn't a way to reconcile your beliefs with those of Catholics, so why argue? Our profession of faith has remained in its' form more or less for 1100 years. In it the acceptance of belief in the Holy Trinity is central.
Can you really be so quick to compare the original christian faith to worship of a golden calf? That's as un-christian a thing as I've seen, and unworthy.
best to you and yours.
My words unChristian? You must really hate John's words then.
2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
The same spiritual forces that decieved the children of Isreal are at work today. Lucifer's success at having people scoff at his existance is only rivalled by his success at infiltrating religion with his multi god doctrines.
You think I'm harsh?
Jehu killed the prophets of the baalim. What do you think of that?
Don't expect any direct answers.
Truer words were probably never spoken.
Can you really be so quick to compare the original Christian faith to worship of a golden calf?
That, in a nutshell, is the problem many of us have. The trinity was not part of original Christianity. It was introduced into the church in the fourth century and made part of dogma during the Council of Nicea. It was later confirmed in 381 A.D. at the Council of Constantinople to be sacred doctrine of the new Imperial State religion!
As far as worshiping and bowing down to a "Calf", I think you Trinitarians have more experience with idols than we do.
You wrote:
"The doctrine of the trinity is a modern version of baal worship which was the antithesis to worship of the true God."
False. The Trinity is God. The Trinity is not modern.
"If Jesus is God, how can be between mediator between man and God?"
Simple. he is both Man and God. No one else is. He is mediator because He is both.
"God is spirit and invisible. Jesus is God's representation but not God."
God the Father is spirit. His Son was spirit -- until He took on flesh. Now He is both Man and God.
"God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man tha he should repent."
Jesus never lied. Jesus never repented for He never sinned. He was God so He could never lie and He could never sin.
"God cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted in all ways."
No, the Devil tempted Him. That doesn't mean He had desire to give in that temptation. If you're tempted to eat a whole cake that means you're thinking about doing it, wrestling over the desire to do it. That is not what scripture implies about Christ. What it says about Christ is the Devil tempted Him. So if the Devil said: "Go ahead. Eat the bread. You're hungry aren't you?" Jesus experienced desire to eat, but had no capacity to give into the temptations of the Devil. He could never choose to follow the Devil.
Even Protestants get this right: http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/temptation/summary.asp
"There is one God; God is one. The Trininty is three."
No. The Trinity is Three Persons in ONE God. ONE.
"Yeah, I know what I believe and can articulate it as do some others on this thread."
What you believe isn't Christianity. The fact that you can articulate your disbelief doesn't bolster its truth.
Why is it that the NT Jews/scribes/Pharisees/assorted experts in the law are considered by Christianity (Jesus himself had choice words for them) to be blind guides, essentially clueless and unbelieving. Yet, their "understanding" is used by the Church as one of the foundational evidences of the trinity doctrine. Talk about contorted. They did NOT understand Jesus' words... so no wonder they were picking up stones. At least they were reacting out of their zeal for monotheism; how much less deserving of mercy are those who - despite voluminous warnings to the contrary - choose to embrace the doctrine of baalim whole hog.
That must be where the OSAS doctrine comes in to cover for them.
(Speaking of Jesus Christ:)
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
If Jesus did not have the capacity to give in to temptation as you say, then he was not really tempted as the Bible says.
God cannot be tempted; Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL ways...self preservation, power, etc. Without the free will and ability to choose to obey or sin Jesus could NOT be truly tempted. But he had free will and was tempted.
You say that three is one and that just isn't the truth. The idea of a god with multiple is documented in the baalim which was a deception to Isreal. That is why the old testament beats the drum about there being only one God and that God is one.
Those idolotrous doctrines have been carried through to this day by teaching a 'mystery' of three being one, something that supercedes and contradicts clear scripture and something that its adherents is beyond our understanding.
However, the Bible clearly states that there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; that God is one; that God is spirt; that God is not the son of man while Jesus is frequently referred to as the son of man.
Trinitarians have to rely on a few sections of scripture that can be difficult to interpret while ignoring volumes of scripture that are clear and direct.
Considering your background, can you please elaborate on the word "in" in John's writings when he says:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
You wrote:
"If Jesus did not have the capacity to give in to temptation as you say, then he was not really tempted as the Bible says."
Incorrect. I have been tempted and resisted it. So have you I am sure. Jesus COULD NOT SIN. Scripture tells us that does it not? Jesus was like us in all things but sin. That doesn't mean Jesus could be tempted. He just didn't act on the temptation. This is not a difficult concept to understand.
"God cannot be tempted; Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL ways...self preservation, power, etc. Without the free will and ability to choose to obey or sin Jesus could NOT be truly tempted. But he had free will and was tempted."
Did He sin? No. Scripture says He was not like us in terms of sin. If He could not sin, that does not mean He could not be tempted, however.
"You say that three is one and that just isn't the truth."
Yes, it is. Jesus even said He and the Father were ONE. How can two be ONE? When they are two different persons in ONE God.
"The idea of a god with multiple is documented in the baalim which was a deception to Isreal."
Jesus is not Baal. Comparing the Trinity to ancient or near ancient false gods in the Near East is a false point logically. Superficial similarity in concepts does not mean one followed the other. That is a common logical error committed by people.
"That is why the old testament beats the drum about there being only one God and that God is one."
God is ONE -- a Trinity of Persons in One God.
"Those idolotrous doctrines have been carried through to this day by teaching a 'mystery' of three being one, something that supercedes and contradicts clear scripture and something that its adherents is beyond our understanding."
Incorrect. There is no relationship between Baalism and Christianity. That is merely the nonsensical smokescreen thrown up by people who don't really known anything about history or scripture. Usually it is followed by an appeal to a thoroughly untrustworthy and refuted wannabee like Hislop. Is that your next move?
"However, the Bible clearly states that there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus;"
Man and God in one.
"that God is one; that God is spirt; that God is not the son of man while Jesus is frequently referred to as the son of man."
Jesus is Man and God. He was always God. He later became Man.
Trinitarians have to rely on a few sections of scripture that can be difficult to interpret while ignoring volumes of scripture that are clear and direct.
You wrote:
"Considering your background, can you please elaborate on the word "in" in John's writings when he says: 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
If you mean "in the flesh" rather than "in the world" (you didn't distinguish which "in" you meant): The Second Person of the Trinity existed before man. When he took on flesh and was born into the world He was known as Jesus of Nazareth. The verse is a rebuke to Gnostics or Docetians (i.e. those who denied Jesus was really man).
The same as when a monarch uses the the pluran "we" when referring to himself or herself.
The Bible clearly states that God is one, not two, not three, not seven, but one.
I appreciate your responses more than you know!
You are claiming that Jesus could not sin. If he was incapable of sinning then there was no true temptation. That is contrary to the Bible.
Jesus had a separate will from God. He said, 'not my will but yours be done'. According to you, Jesus did not have a free will to choose to disobey. I say that Jesus did have a separate and distinct will and could have chosen to disobey, but he chose not to.
The "in" I asked about was 'in the flesh'. Hint, Greek word "en" which normally means 'in and totally within'. Either one is in or one is not in. Either or.
John cautions us about people who deny that Jesus came in (and totally within) the flesh.
Paul cautions about worshipping the creation instead of the creator. God is the creator; Jesus was created by God.
Although there are several names for Jehova in the Old Testament to reflect the relationship Jehova had with the Isrealites, the fact that there is only one God and that God is one is central to authentic worship.
Today as then we have challenges; one group claims that there is one God, one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus and another that claims that there are three gods in one and that Jesus as God/Man mediates.
Like I said, I appreciate your sincere representation of the trininty more than you know.
Which Bible translation are you using that prevents you from finding the Trinity in Scripture?
It's there...it's obvious...unless you're using one of the crackpot verions published by fringe groups.
You wrote:
"I appreciate your responses more than you know!"
Thanks.
"You are claiming that Jesus could not sin. If he was incapable of sinning then there was no true temptation. That is contrary to the Bible."
No. I have been tempted to sin and yet have not sinned in some cases. So have you -- unless you're going to tell me you sin every single time you're tempted (which would imply you have even greater problems than anti-Trinitarianism). So, if you and I can be tempted and reject sin sometimes, why couldn't a perfect man, who was also God, ALWAYS reject sin? Also, if He did sin then you're going to hell. Why? Because an unblemished sacrifice was needed to redeem us. If Jesus sinned then He was blemished. You wouldn't be saved. Your beliefs lead to doom. Christian beliefs don't.
"Jesus had a separate will from God. He said, 'not my will but yours be done'. According to you, Jesus did not have a free will to choose to disobey."
No. You are mischaracterizing Jesus. Jesus had no desire to sin. He is God. God has no desire to sin. You are making a mistake by reducing Jesus to a mere sinful man -- which makes sense since you deny His divinity but it is not the real Jesus you're deconstructing then. Jesus is God. God does not sin. God does not have the desire to sin.
"I say that Jesus did have a separate and distinct will and could have chosen to disobey, but he chose not to."
Okay, so now you are saying Jesus, who is God, would be capable of rebelling against His Father in Heaven? No. Jesus was the perfect Son. He was not capable of rebelling because He was perfect in Holiness. He has a divine nature and perfect righteousness is His by nature. He would never have a desire to rebel. To sin is to rebel against God.
"The "in" I asked about was 'in the flesh'. Hint, Greek word "en" which normally means 'in and totally within'. Either one is in or one is not in. Either or."
And? Was Jesus not in the flesh? Did He not take His infinite nature and put it into a finite body? Yes, He did. And He did it for us.
"John cautions us about people who deny that Jesus came in (and totally within) the flesh."
John cautions us against the Gnostics and Docetians -- I already pointed that out. Both groups denied that Jesus ever took on flesh. The Docetians believed, for instance, that Jesus didn't really die on the cross. They believed He faked His death for He had no real flesh to die. They believed Jesus was God, but not man. You are doing the opposite.
"Paul cautions about worshipping the creation instead of the creator. God is the creator; Jesus was created by God."
Jesus was a creator. Read John 1. And that is not the only place where Jesus is referred to in his creator capacity if I remember correctly. Look at John 1:3, Col. 1:16-17. Notice Colossians says: "And He is before all things, and by him all things consist."
So there it is: the Son of God EXISTED before the things He created. That's long before He became man obviously.
"Although there are several names for Jehova in the Old Testament to reflect the relationship Jehova had with the Isrealites, the fact that there is only one God and that God is one is central to authentic worship."
There is only one God: the Trinity. There are, however, three persons in God.
"Today as then we have challenges; one group claims that there is one God, one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus and another that claims that there are three gods in one and that Jesus as God/Man mediates."
I know of no Christian group that claims there are three gods. In fact, for anyone to do so immediately places that person outside of Christianity. Christians believe in one God: the Trinity.
"Like I said, I appreciate your sincere representation of the trininty more than you know."
Fine.
"If Jesus is God, how can be between mediator between man and God?"
If Jesus is true God and true Man, he IS the mediation between man and God. Consider the basic mode of sacrifice, a blood connection between two parts.
Can you show me the word 'trinity' in the Bible? No.
It is not a word, but The Word, and a true doctrine of the faithful:
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."If not the doctrine of the Trinity, and I believe it is true doctrine according to these and every other Scripture, it must be a doctrine of Four In One - perhaps we could rightly call it a Quadrille! - for we who believe are also one *in HIM* who is the Very Son! Yet the Scriptures testify that the Witness is rightly called the Trinity:
Romans 8:13-15But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Galatians 4:4-7Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:5-8"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, *just as* you are *in* me and I am in you. May they also be *in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I *in* them and you *in* me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them *even as* you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 17:20-26And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be *with you* forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives *with you* and *will be* *in* you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 14:16-18"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" —which means, 'God *with us*.'
Matthew 1:23
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 20:27-29
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word [...became flesh and dwelt among us...], and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
1 John 5:7-9
Amen, may God grant eyes to see!
PS - One need not be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, as I am not, to believe it!
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