Music and Liturgy

CERC ^ | 2000 | JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER

[oyez]

BFL.

I've weakness for Bach's organ works, but I don't know their place in The Liturgy.

[NYer]

Great article .... than you for posting it.

[livius]

They're sometimes used as preludes or recessionals.

[livius]

Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.

Bears repeating! I find applause in the liturgy to be wildly inappropriate, but it seems to crop up all over the place now.

Also, as the Pope pointed out, the desire to insert entertainment into the liturgy is a very old one. The so-called Miracle and Mystery plays of the Middle Ages had to be forbidden, not because they were bad in themselves, but because they were performed in the churches and parts of them were even done during the liturgy. They of course also became less devotional and more on the order of burlesque shows as the years went by, simply because that is the nature of entertainment, as opposed to liturgy.

[oyez]

I wish the church would use Bach for the time the congregation is entering and leaving, even if the music is on CD.Its nice for a background for personal prayer.

[oyez]

I wish the church would use Bach for the time the congregation is entering and leaving, even if the music is on CD.Its nice for a background for personal prayer. These days too many people are socializing during the pre-mass. They know where their friends are. The can converse after service.

Oop! I think I just double posted.

[Gone_Postal]

bookmarked for later

[livius]

They're not supposed to use recorded music, but they can play anything they want for the prelude (before the entrance) and the recessional after Mass. Some churches do a fairly long set of prelude pieces, and this actually does keep the chit-chat down.

[TotusTuus]

Of course, external actions — reading, singing, the bringing up of the gifts — can be distributed in a sensible way. By the same token, participation in the Liturgy of the Word (reading, singing) is to be distinguished from the sacramental celebration proper. We should be clearly aware that external actions are quite secondary here. Doing really must stop when we come to the heart of the matter: the oratio. It must be plainly evident that the oratio is the heart of the matter, but that it is important precisely because it provides a space for the actio of God. Anyone who grasps this will easily see that it is not now a matter of looking at or toward the priest, but of looking together toward the Lord and going out to meet him. The almost theatrical entrance of different players into the liturgy, which is so common today, especially during the Preparation of the Gifts, quite simply misses the point. If the various external actions (as a matter of fact, there are not very many of them, though they are being artificially multiplied) become the essential in the liturgy, if the liturgy degenerates into general activity, then we have radically misunderstood the "theo-drama" of the liturgy and lapsed almost into parody. True liturgical education cannot consist in learning and experimenting with external activities. Instead one must be led toward the essential actio that makes the liturgy what it is, toward the transforming power of God, who wants, through what happens in the liturgy, to transform us and the world. In this respect, liturgical education today, of both priests and laity, is deficient to a deplorable extent. Much remains to be done here.

This guy is good! He "gets" it!

Quick, somebody introduce him to the Pope;)

[TotusTuus]

Yes, the liturgical action should be authentic whereby those present bring forth the best of themselves (and the material around them) to respond to God in the sacred dialogue with Him in union with all the angels and saints.

Hence the use of living flames for candles (no electric stuff), real bells, incense, etc.

CD's are good in their proper place. The sacred liturgy is not the proper place. The prayers (music if sung) should come authentically from those present.

[ninenot]

Ahhhh...the good stuff!!

[ninenot]

'Tis a BIG no-no to use recorded music in a church (which certainly has not prevented it from happening.)

The Church's belief and teaching is that HUMANS worship god, not tape recorders; and that if the music is not produced by humans, it simply should not be used.

That happens to be a part of the Church's belief and teaching on the topic of Electronic Organs--they too, are a no-no (albeit tolerated if absolutely necessary financially).

The pipe organ uses nature (wind) to make its sounds--as do violins, flutes, etc. "Reproduced" sound is simply not the same, and is certainly not natural.

[oyez]

I agree. Classically trained organists hare hard to come by.

[ninenot]

No question about it.

Check the pay-scales lately for Church organists in the Roman Catholic church?

You can support about 1/2 a human with what's usually offered, so long as that 1/2 a human never has a medical problem, tooth decay, or purchases an automobile.

[ELS]

An orthodox bishop told a friend of mine that according to Canon Law, the only recorded music that can be "played" in church is Gregorian chant. I got to hear the monks of Santo Domingo de Silos chanting in a church in NJ. It was quite conducive to prayer at the appropriate volume, not to mention it was very beautiful.

[ninenot]

I think that the orthodox Bishop was erroneous, but I applaud his taste.

[Jeff Chandler]

Liturgy? Our church has no liturgy. It has a parody. It could have been produced by Zucker, Abrahams, and Zucker. I keep expecting Leslie Nielson to show up in a Speedo.

[.30Carbine]

I literally clap my hands in praises to God Almighty when I see Him at His Work, whether alone, in church, in public places, in prayer...! He is worthy of all praise and if even the trees clap their hands for Him, ought not we who are redeemed? (:

[.30Carbine]

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy.

It ought to be!

David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the LORD. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."
2 Samuel 6:14-22