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Can traditions contradict God's completed Word?
The Mountain Retreat ^ | 1998 | Tony Warren

Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock

Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura
Really Biblical?

by Tony Warren

    Sola Scriptura is a latin phrase which was coined by the Reformed Church during the 1500's. It means 'scripture solely' or, 'scripture alone.' By these words the faithful Christians of this era were standing up for the Biblical principle that the Holy Scriptures were God's inspired Word, and as such were the sole infallible rule of faith. By definition the Word of God had to be the ultimate authority for the Church, and not (as some had supposed) the Roman catholic church, it's pope, and magisterium. Since the position of the Roman church was mutually exclusive to that of those faithful Christians who protested it (and thus were labled, protestants), both obviously could not be correct. If the faithful Christian Church was going to stand on God's Word as the ultimate or supreme authority, then there would have to be a 'reforming' of that Church. A restoring of faith in the laws of God which the Church had fallen away from. Much like when a criminal reforms himself to now obey the laws which were always there, but which he had previously neglected. Likewise, these faithful Christians understood that they had erred and must return to the former obedience and reliance upon God's law. A good analogy is in the Old Testament when the Priest Hilkiah brought the law of God (that had been previously neglected) to the faithful King Josiah and He, reading God's law, understood this principle of being reformed from breaking the law.

    2nd Kings 22:10-13

Likewise these faithful Reformers read God's law and understood that their fathers had not harkened unto the Words of the Book. Thus, on October 31, 1517, for all intents and purposes the Reformation began when a German Monk by the name of Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the Roman Catholic Church door in Wittenberg Germany. The faithful would no longer forsake the laws of God's book in favor of tradition, and would return to the Biblical precepts of not leaning unto their own understanding or that of their Church leaders, but upon the Scriptures alone (Sola Scriptura) as their ultimate authority.

Actually, calling it 'Sola Scriptura' might be contrued as a bit of a misnomer, because it is not a doctrine which teaches that we believe that there are not other authorities, nor that they have no value or place. Rather, it means that all other authorities must be subordinate to the Word of God. Thus the phrase 'Sola scriptura' implies several things. First, that the scriptures are a direct revelation from God, and as such are His authoritative Word. It is also a term which illustrates that the scriptures are all that is necessary for Christian faith and practice today. Not only that the scriptures are sufficient, but that they also are the ultimate and final court of appeal on all doctrinal matters. Because however good and faithful Church fathers may be in giving guidance, all the fathers, pastors, teachers, popes, and councils, are still fallible. The only infallible 'source' for truth is God. And besides God Himself, only His Holy Words (the Scriptures alone) are infallible.

The Reformation doctrine of Sola Scriptura ultimately pointed to a most basic concern of the faithful Church of that day, which was expressed in their cry of Soli Deo Gloria, or, 'to God alone be the Glory.' This expresses the true Christian perspective that God should receive all the Glory, and that this is done by man keeping His Word as their supreme authority. The infallible head of the Church is Christ, and not a fallible man. And so the Authority of the Church must likewise be His infallible Word, and not the words of men. No matter how faithful they might appear, they are still the word of men and thus subordinate to God's word. What is called Sola Scriptura both was, and is, essential to true Christianity. For it is the difference between God's traditions and ordinances, and man's traditions and ordinances.

What some call the oral traditions of the Church are subject to change, development, degeneration, and deviation. There is absolutely no guarantee given by God or by Scripture (His Word) that such an oral tradition would be either preserved, or needed. Indeed, 2nd Timothy chapter 3 strongly implies such was not needed.

    2nd Timothy 3:16-17

The Old Testament 'scriptures' thoroughly furnished man of that day unto all good works, and Christ continually referenced it to prove truths. Jesus and others read and quoted Scripture (never any oral traditions, except to condemn them). That's not an insignificant fact. Likewise, when Satan tested Jesus, the Lord made reference to 'the authority of scripture' to prove the devil wrong.

    Matthew 4:3-4

What proceeds out of the mouth of God is His Holy, and this is 'written in the Bible.' That is what Jesus says man lives by, and it is what we are to live by. The Word of God, and not the words of men. No matter how faithful Christians may appear, their word is subordinate to God's Word. Jesus could have answered Satan any way that He wanted, for He is God and an original and perfect answer He could have spoken afresh at any moment. But instead, Christ pointed to what was already written in the scriptures as the reply to the adversary. i.e., that was the perfect answer! What God had inspired to be written, not the oral tradition of the day, but what had proceedeth from God's mouth and had been written in His Holy book. And this deferral to what was written in the scriptures is a lesson for all faithful Christians in what authority we should seek to prove Biblical truths. And Jesus did this not only in answering un-biblical assertions, but also when presented with scripture that was taken out of context. Jesus again defers 'to other scriptures' which qualifies the scripture in question. For example:

    Matthew 4:5-11

In other words, Jesus replies to scripture taken out of context with an additional scripture which clarifies it (not denies it). In doing this, He makes sure we see the meaning of that first scripture was that, 'Yes, God will watch over us, but that doesn't mean that we can test/tempt the Lord God.' This is just another pertinent example God illustrating the authority of Scripture, even in the face of those who present other scriptures taken out of context. The Perfect answer by Christ to combat erroneous understanding of scripture, was for Him to quote 'additional Scripture' which shed more light on it's true meaning. i.e., scripture was 'still authoritative' over whatever scripture that anyone would attempt to misuse or misapply.

    Matthew 4:8

Again, Jesus presents scripture, God's Word, to counter Satan's ideas and visions of glory. He says, 'It is Written!' In other words, Jesus says God's Word declares thus and thus. He never says, the Priests say, or our leaders say, or oral tradition says. Jesus, our example, says, 'it is written.' This is a representative sample or model of the posture we are to take in order to try or test the Spirits to see whether they be of God. We compare their words to God's Word, countering their tradition with the authority of God's Word. The same can be said about any debate of the doctrines of the Church. The correct principle in faithful Hermeneutics is to always defer to sound and ordered exegesis of scripture, and not to traditions or the heads of the Church. This is precisely as Jesus demonstrated in His debates with the religious leaders of His day. He appealed to the Scriptures, not to these congregational leaders, traditions, or any ecclesiastical body. The authority He appealed to, was scripture.

    Matthew 21:42

Where was it written? It was written in the Scriptures, the authority which furnished them unto all good works whereby they should have searched, and known of Christ. Likewise, when the New Testament was added, it Biblically follows that same principle of thoroughly furnishing us unto all Good works continues in this addition to God's Word. We should understand that once completed, the New Testament scriptures (like the old was) is the guidebook of truth. It is now a 'completed Work,' not a work in progress. It is not an incomplete book. We can't add to it or take away from it by oral tradition, revelation or divine inspiration. The bible (N.T. and O.T.) is now one cohesive whole which is complete and thoroughly furnishing us. And this is the truth which the doctrine of Sola Scriptura so humbly instructs the Church in. That God's Bible is complete, and thus is not subject to addition or subtraction. It is God's Word alone.

There are some Roman catholic church apologists that declare this doctrine was not even heard of until 'the reformation' of the 16th century. This of course is an inaccurate and self serving claim, which can be proven false quite easily (even apart from scripture). Read this quote from the 5th century, 1100 years before the Reformation and see if you can guess who wrote it:

This Mediator (Jesus Christ), having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has Paramount Authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.

Do you know who authored this affirmation of the principle of Sola Scriptura, the doctrine of ultimate or paramount authority of the scriptures? The author is saint Augustine of Hippo. It's a quote taken directly from his book 'City of God' (book 11, Chapter 3). This unambiguous declaration by Augustine is about as definitive a statement for Sola Scriptura as any Protestant declaration I've read. So this argument, by Biblical and historical proofs, fails miserably. The Word of God both is, and was the Supreme authority of the Church. The phrase Sola scriptura is a latin term, but obviously that doesn't mean that what it delineates was not Church doctrine from the beginning. The faithful fathers, Christ Himself, and the Apostles, all deferred to authority of scripture.


Can traditions contradict God's completed Word?

Can the scriptures contradict what some allege is 'oral apostolic tradition,' and yet that tradition still be of God? The answer of course is a resounding, No! God is not the author of confusion. The undeniable fact is, two infallible God-breathed sources cannot contradict each other. Else, at least one of them is not infallible. That is a fact. Yet God's Word and Roman catholic church traditions constantly contradict each other. This should alert any faithful student of scripture that one is neither infallible, nor of God. And these are just a few of the myriad of examples..

  1. The Word of God teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4,20), and that all sin is purged and we were purified in Christ, by the cross. Roman catholic traditions teach that sin can be purged later, in a place called Purgatory (place of purifying). This is Heresy!
  2. The Word of God teaches that the office of bishop and presbyter are the same office (Titus 1) but Roman tradition says they are different offices.
  3. The Scriptures of God teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), while Roman catholic tradition corrects this, claiming that the Priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.
  4. The Word of God teaches that we should not use vain repetitions in prayers (Matthew 6:7) thinking that we will be heard for our much speaking, while the Roman catholic traditions teach repeating Hail Mary in prayer as penitence 'as if' God indeed will hear us for our much repetition.
  5. The Word of God teach that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), while Roman catholic traditions claim that's not true, as Mary was also sinless.
  6. The Holy scriptures teaches that all Christians are Saints and Priests (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9), but Roman Catholic tradition has made Saints and Priests special cases and offices within the Christian community, dealt out by their Church leadership.
  7. The Word of God says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4-5), but the Roman catholic tradition makes no such claim, nor rebukes Christians for this practice.
  8. The Word of God says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but Roman catholic tradition claims Mary is co-mediator with Christ.
  9. The Word of God says that Jesus Christ is the Rock upon which the Church rests, the foundation stone, and the Head of the Church (Luke 6:48, 1st Peter 2:7-8, Matthew 16:18), But Roman catholic tradition claims that the foundation Rock of the Church is Pope Peter, and that the pontiff is the head of the Church, an aberration which in effect makes God's Church, a two headed Church, with multiple authorities and starting foundation.
  10. The Word of God says that all Christians can and should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13), but Roman catholic tradition says that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.

The Reformers understood clearly that the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ to the Pharisees, applied equally to those of their day:

"..thus you have made the commandment of God of non effect by your traditions!" -Matthew 15:6

Comparing these traditions with God's Word, sadly we also understand that this practice of unrighteousness continues today. You simply cannot have tradition and scripture contradicting each other, while claiming both are the infallible teachings of God. It is blatant confusion. Any oral traditions passed down in the church is subject to the written Word of God, as it has always been. As it was for the Scribes and Pharisees. To deny this is tortuous of scripture and of authority.

Moreover, if there was an ongoing oral tradition (which there is not), it still would require a standard point of reference to check itself against, such as God speaking from the Mountain, or the scriptures. True Christians (under God's direction), realize the danger of Church tradition becoming corrupted by fallible men (as had been the case with the Pharisees, and throughout Biblical history), and so faithfulness requires an infallible scriptural check book. Christians led by the Spirit of God understood the need for a supreme final authoritative checkpoint to which every person must be subject. Thus the importance of maintaining the Apostles' and God's authoritative Word became of very great concern to them, even as it had previously with the scribes maintaining the Old Testament books. If we were to totally ignore the facts of history, that there was no Roman church nor Pope making the claims they now do during the first three or four centuries (as the foremost Church historians overwhelmingly attest), then we might fathom this. And if we were to wrongly assume there was such a Church headed by an infallible pope as the Roman church does, then this would not even begin to explain the importance believers placed on maintaining the texts of the New Testament. For indeed there would have been no need to maintain them at all. One would only need to consult the infallible Pope, who, being under God's guidance would know the truth more certainly and accurately than the Apostle's written word. In 2nd Peter 1:19, where Peter said, 'we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it,' that would be worthless.

But of course, true Christians do realize that doctrine and oral tradition are indeed subject to change, development, degeneration, and deviation, and 'therefore' require a standard point of God breathed reference to check itself against. Scripture supplied and continues to supply this check. By this only we can try (test) the spirits to know whether they be of God or not (1st John 4:1). How would we do this without the authority of scripture? How would have the Priest Hilkiah? Tradition which proclaims what is non-scriptural cannot have absolute authority; It may have the authority of age, antiquity, or large consent, but it does not have ultimate compulsion or necessity. In short, there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that any church, any tradition, any pope or minister, is equal to Scripture. Therefore, scripture is the final authority which we try the spirits with.


Can Tradition be on a Par with God's Word?

    Since the Bible 'is' the Word of God (as even Roman catholics whole heartily agree), then it's only rational, Biblical, and logical to profess that any other authority, cannot either contradict it, be on a par with it, nor be above it. i.e., there is no authority higher than God (what Word supersedes God's?) and no word on a par with it (what word is as good as God's?) Therefore (again logically, Biblically, and rationally speaking), in order for someone's word to be on a par with God's Word, the one speaking it would have to be God, or at the very least equal to God, or have God speak verbally to him in a voice. The Only other alternative is to be 'quoting' God from His Word. Neither the Pope, a Priest, nor anyone else is equal to God to have his word be on a par with God's Word, nor is God speaking to anyone from the smoke on the mountain or the burning Bush today, or creating new oral scriptures. The Bible is Complete, not incomplete. It needs no further additions, and condemns those who dare to add to it.

This of course is the tangled web in which the Roman church finds itself by placing tradition on a par with God's Word. For unless something is God's Word, then it cannot be equal to God's Word. And simply saying God gave it, is not sufficient for anyone to claim tradition is the Word, just as it wouldn't be for the traditions that the Pharisees held and Jesus condemned, saying, it made the Word of God of non effect.

True, God breathed His Word through the apostles that their words became the 'Word of God,' just as He did Old Testament scripture. But unless God is continuing to write his book (the scriptures) through the Roman church, then that giving of the law through those who penned scripture has ended. If it has not ended, then the Pope must rip out the page of Revelation where God says don't add to His word and throw it away. He must then proclaim the Bible incomplete, and write down every infallible Word that he (supposedly) receives of God, and place it on the pages of the Bible uncondemned for it, as it is the Word of God. ..'if' what he claims is true. If tradition was on a par with God's Word, then it would be God's Word. In fact, then there would 'again' be no oral tradition, as it would join the written Word of God 'as' the Word of God. God's Word is something God wants us to hear and obey. This is the tangled web that is woven by this un-biblical dogma of the old Roman church.

More than that, tradition can become corrupt in the congregation of God (even as it certainly had with the Pharisees in Jesus' day -mark 7:9, and in King Josiah's day), and so common sense dictates that it simply cannot and must not be trusted as the ultimate authority as the Word of God is. The words and doctrines of men are often unjustifiable by scripture, and even contradictory to it. Not surprisingly, scripture bears out the truth that any tradition or ordinance must be subordinate to the Word. Jesus made it quite clear that we simply cannot hold to any traditions which are not subordinate to scripture, and that teaching such doctrines are contrary to the gospel of Christ. Consider wisely:

    Mark 7:6-8

This was no slap on the wrist, it was the worst of judgments upon them for setting aside the Word of God in order that they could keep their traditions. The exact same error of the Roman church today. The error of the religious leaders was that they had put tradition on a par with the written Word of God. In fact, they had made it superior to Scripture, as the commandments were interpreted 'by their tradition,' which makes scripture subject to it instead of vice versa. Christ rebuked them in the strongest of terms illustrating that the tradition of their congregation was subject to the scriptures, and scripture not to their tradition. Any argument which denies this (considering scriptures such as this one), is indefensible. Jesus would not have condemned them for their traditions if the tradition of God's chosen people was on a par with scripture. It made no biblical sense then, and it makes no biblical sense now.

    Proverbs 30:5-6

This is a solemn declaration that every word of God is tried and pure and that we are not to add to His words, lest we be found liars. This law of God is an enduring restriction on God's revelation. Holy men of old who spake as they were inspired of God, wrote scripture. Those scriptures are now finished or complete. This is not an ongoing book. As God's people, under God's care, we have the authority of God's Word. No other supreme authorities, or institution, or object, is so circumscribed. Note that in Ecclesiastes, after reflecting on the vanity of life, the Preacher summarizes our basic duty as to, 'fear God and keep His commandments (Eccl. 12:13). We must not add to God's Word by claiming traditions are God's Word. Those who love God keep His Word alone as the authority.

Understanding this, we therefore know that those who reject the scripture today as the only 'infallible' rule of faith and practice, ultimately are subordinating the Word of God to tradition by making congregational tradition and leadership the interpreter of God's Word. It sets the words of men in the Church (no matter how faithful they may be) on a par with God's Word, and this is a dangerous and un-biblical thing to do. Every individual is ultimately responsible for what he believes, not the Church, not his Priest, and not his leader. Each man is judged for his own sin. We are all responsible to study the Bible, not leave that for others to do for us. And indeed Jesus Himself said,

    John 12:48

No one practicing the Roman church doctrine of Church authority, will be able to stand before God at the judgment and plead, "..the Pope and the Magisterium, or my Priest told me to believe in this or that." There is no such 'excuse' available to man. We are to listen to God's Word rather than their word, and neglecting this, we will be judged for it. We therefore should carefully consider which authority is really infallible, and which we should follow. God's Word (a given), or our church tradition.

    John 10;27

What is the voice of Christ? Is it Church leadership, a Priest, the Magisterium, or is it the Word of God? Certainly this is the crux of the matter. The truth is, it is God's Word alone that should be the final authority in matters of faith, practice, and doctrine of the Church (not the only authority, but the final, supreme and ultimate Authority).

The Lord Jesus Christ, replete with examples, taught us this principle. As when the Pharisees argued with Jesus the points of the law of God concerning the Sabbath. Did Jesus petition tradition to speak concerning it? Did He lean to ecumenical counsels? Did He say check with the High Priest? No, He showed that we are to lean upon the written Word.

    Matthew 12:3-5

Again, when they questioned him about the law of God concerning divorce..

    Matthew 19:4-5

Or as the Sadducees questioned Him concerning doctrines of the resurrection. Did Jesus appeal to congregational heads or tradition? Not at all, He appealed to the written Word.

    Matthew 22:31-32

Or when the man came to Him and asked what they must do to inherit eternal life, did Jesus say, talk to the Church fathers, get Church absolution, or to follow the congregational traditions? No, He once again appealed to him to look to the scriptures.

    Luke 10:26

That is where Jesus 'directed' them to find the answers to these questions. In the scriptures! When the Sadducees in denying the doctrine of the resurrection and trying to trap Jesus tempted him in hopes to snare Him, Jesus could have given them a legitimate and awe inspiring "NEW" answer on the spot without an appeal to written Scripture. It is not curious that He did not, but instead (as usual), appeals to scripture. He tells them:

    Matthew 22:29

Once again, Jesus rejects ecclesiastical tradition of the Sadducees in favor of 'Sola Scriptura.' He says (as the Church says today of error), you are wrong because you don't really know 'the scriptures.' In other words, the scriptures is what they should have known, which would have guided them into the truth. But they didn't know them, and that is why they were in error. It is not in the Congregational leaders and traditions that man will find truth, it is where Jesus appeals. And that is to God's Word.

    Matthew 26:24

God, the Perfect teacher! Yet He is appealing Sola Scriptura to show them that He must do what is written. Even when the Jewish people sought to Kill Christ (-John 5:18, as they thought that they were God's Chosen People and had Eternal life), Jesus once again directed them to the real authority, wherein they would find the truth about the matter.

    John 5:39

Why would Jesus be sending them to a non-authoritative source for truth? Or why would He be sending them to a lessor authority? It is self evident of course that He wouldn't! He sent them to the ultimate authority. He directed them to scriptures for the very same reason that the Bereans (acts 17:11) appealed to scripture. Because it and not the leaders or tradition of their congregation, was the ultimate authority. He is saying search the inspired, divine, infallible Word of God for truth. The faithful of the Protestant Reformation understood this wisdom most evident throughout the teachings of Jesus.


Roman Catholic Objections

Most Roman catholics object to Sola Scriptura from two distinct positions. They argue that:

(#1) The New Testament references to oral "tradition" (II Thess. 2:15; II Tim. 2:2; II Cor. 11:2) illustrate the unbiblicalness of this teaching, and that

(#2) The Scripture nowhere teaches the doctrine.

Isn't it ironic that in both cases 'they appeal to scripture' (though unjustifiably) as the final proof or authority that their traditions are correct? When it suits their purpose, they can always appeal to scripture (as in the keys of the kingdom, Peter the Rock, translations of words describing Mary's other Children, etc.) as the final say, but when it doesn't suit their purpose, curiously, scripture isn't really the final authority on doctrine.

Nevertheless, the first argument is based upon a simplistic and naive understanding of Sola Scriptura in that it presupposes the doctrine means there was never any oral tradition or teaching done. This of course would be ludicrous, as much of the New Testament was oral tradition or teaching of God before it was written down (see the Study on 'Traditions of men vs. Traditions of God'). I have yet to find anyone except catholics themselves who believes Sola Scriptura means what they purport. So this argument is the proverbial "Straw Man" argument. Things revealed to Peter, and which he was inspired of God to say (oral tradition or ordinances) became the written 'Word of God' as they were penned, just as the Old Testament was. But the Bible is complete today. i.e., there is no New Newer Testament book of Pope John, or Pope this or that, as there is a book of Peter, or John, or jude, etc. Because the Word of God is finished, complete, and not to be added to.

In so far as the second argument is concerned, as I've been demonstrating throughout this document, scripture clearly teaches what has been labled 'Sola Scriptura,' from the beginning of it to the end. But it requires the Holy Spirit of God to discern this, just as any doctrine of scripture does. To simply say scripture doesn't teach it, despite the mountain of scriptures supporting it, is to stick ones head in the proverbial sand. With Jesus proving that what He says is true by directing us to the scriptures, it would seem that the Roman church and Pope would likewise direct all to the scriptures. Instead, they claim an infallible authority 'over' the scripture itself, alleging that only they can interpret it. What arrogance and vanity is this?

It would seem to me that given the abundance of examples and illustrations of God, the onus is on the Roman church to 'disprove' the sufficiency of scripture, rather than on the Church to prove it's insufficiency. Because both sides agree scripture 'is' the Word of God, and no other authority is above God. How then is it insufficient? But saying this, the Roman church has a mystery that is a riddle inside an enigma. How is no other authority above God's, while God's Word is subject to church teachings? It makes no sense. How is scripture not sufficient, and yet God declare that there cannot be added anything else to it?

In order to disprove sufficiency of scripture, one would need to show us exactly where oral tradition differs from Scripture. If it doesn't differ, then what is the need of oral tradition, and why does God say scripture thoroughly furnished them unto all good works? And If oral tradition is not found taught in the scriptures (because it presumably differs from), one must then prove that the 'oral revelation' which was not found in scripture, is apostolic and of divine origin. Despite claims of such proof by some, no such proof exists. Therefore, they cannot prove any oral tradition handed down through tradition of a church, is of God. While scripture proves itself, interprets itself, and defines itself, in our comparing it with itself.

The fact is, the reason that the early Churches of the second century were so diligent in collecting and preserving the New Testament writings of Paul, John, Peter, and others in the first place, was to guard against oral teachings which could not be checked for accuracy once the apostles had all died. i.e., it's God himself inspiring them to preserve His Holy Word, as He did with the Old Testament Scriptures before the first advent of Christ. Sola Scriptura does not mean the rejection of every tradition, Sola Scriptura means that any form of tradition must be tested by the higher authority, and that authority can only be God (and thus God's inspired Holy Word, the Bible).


False Dichotomy between Scripture and Traditions of God

The Roman church error in the dogma of Church traditions lies in creating a dichotomy between two things that cannot be separated, and then using that false dichotomy to deny Sola Scriptura.

    1st Corinthians 11:2

    2nd Timothy 1:13     2nd Timothy 2:1-2     2 Tim. 3:14-17

There is simply nothing in these passages to support the idea of a separate oral tradition different from what was written. In order to deny Sola Scriptura, we must make the erroneous 'assumption' that what Paul taught in the presence of many witnesses is different from what he wrote to entire Church. Is such an idea founded in reality? Of course not. It is rationalization of oral tradition, not proof of it.

    1st Thessalonians. 2:13

    2nd Thessalonians 2:15

There is nothing future about this passage at all. Does Paul say to stand firm and hold fast to traditions that 'will be' delivered? Does Paul say to hold on to interpretations and understandings that have not yet developed? No, this oral teaching which he refers to has already been delivered to the entire Church at Thessalonica. ..Now, what does oral refer to? We first note that the context of the passage is the Gospel and its work among the Thessalonians. The traditions Paul speaks of are not traditions about Mary, Purgatory, Repetitions of hail Mary, or Papal Infallibility. Instead, the traditions Paul refers to have to do with a single topic. One that is close to his heart. He is encouraging these believers to stand firm--in what? Was it in oral traditions about subjects not found in the New Testament? No, he is exhorting them to stand firm in what he has orally taught them of what is in the gospel. The Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed. There is simply nothing in these passages to support the theory of a separate oral tradition different from what was written or what Paul taught. It says what Paul taught whether by word, or our epistle or letter. Likewise note that in passages like 2nd Peter 3:2, Peter stresses the consistency of his teaching with that of the prophets, and of the other apostles. The unity of the Old Testament with the apostolic writings is illustrated in passages such as 1st Peter 1:10-12, and 2nd Peter 1:19-21.

One example of what is known as Sola Scriptura is made plain in the Abrahamic covenant. God again reveals Himself, apart from a divine expositor, and pledges Himself to fulfill His covenant (Gen. 15). When Abram seeks confirmation of God's Glorious Promises, the Lord confirms His divine Word by His divine Word.

    Hebrews 6:13

No Pontiff or magisterium or sacred tradition is invoked to verify God's Word. That's an important point not to be missed. The supreme authority is the Lord's 'own testimony' to His Word. No further appeal is possible. He didn't swear by the Priests, He swore by Himself. Nothing else could confirm God's own Word but God Alone. Other than Himself, His Holy Word stands alone as the supreme authority. Truly, what other authority is on a par? ..Higher? ..Better? ..from a better platform? ..more Trustworthy? ..infallible? ..the answer is None! Which is why Jesus always directed those with questions and objections to His teachings in the scriptures. Both ancient theology endorses this, as well as the New Testament Church. As in the past, God's people may discern truth by going directly to the scriptures. As God explained in the parable when confronted with the question of how they would believe.

    Luke 16:29

God could have very easily said, they have the Church, the Church leaders, the magisterium, but He appealed to the scriptures as their source for Authority they should listen to. Moses and the Prophets is a synonym for the written scriptures. Christ even tells us why people get into errors in their doctrines. It's not because they search the scriptures to understand what is written, but the exact opposite. Jesus said unto them, "ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." -Matt. 22:29

And likewise, Christ did not direct anyone to secondary explications or extra-Biblical Hebrew traditions (though plentiful) as authoritative norms, but He directed them continually to examine the Word of God itself. He alternately declares, 'read the scriptures, it is written, search the scriptures, have ye not read, as saith the scriptures, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, as saith Isaiah, etc., etc." And in the New testament, the exhortation to the authority of scripture continues, (Rom. 15:4; Eph. 6:17; II Tim. 3:16; II Pet. 1:19; Rev. 1:3). Scripture commends those who examine the written revelation of God (as open minded, and more noble -Acts 17:11) and illustrates that Christians have the ability to rightly divide and interpret scripture apart from any (supposed) infallible interpreter whether Church or pontiff (II Tim. 2:15; Acts 17:11). Interpretation must come from the Word of God. As a little child humbly, honestly and simplistically asked:

"..how do we know it's REALLY God's Word, if we don't get it from God's Word?"

And all God's people said, ...A M E N !     Out of the mouth of babes!
For knowing the nature of man, that indeed is a good question. Again, note the manner in which Christ refuted error. It was, 'God said thus, but you say..' (Matt. 15:4-5; 10-11). That was the manner in which He drew a clear, concise contrast between the written Word of God and the traditions of men. Let that be a lesson unto us.

    1st Peter 2:21

We can readily understand the frustration of those who are indoctrinated and thus think Christians should listen to the Roman church instead of God, and how it's annoying to them when we won't bow to that church authority. But there is a very clear warning about making man the authority in the Church in 2nd Thessalonians 2. Man must never sit to 'rule' in the Temple of God 'as if' he was God. Only God can rule (have ultimate authority) over the Church. And God's Word is the Bible. And so really, what's to debate?

The fact is, the only way that man is going to stand with the righteous, overcoming in Christ, is if he has 'kept' the Word of God as truth, and the word of man as error. Belief in the Word of God over man's words of tradition is what separates true believers from false ones. It's what separates those who can and will be deceived, from the Elect who can never be deceived into false Gospels. We know what the truth is because we know 'where' the truth is. It's in the Word from God alone, not in the men who lead the Church. The faithful Church is the witness of God's truth. It bears testimony to God's truth, and that's what makes it the Pillar and ground of this truth. Faithfulness to truth (which is God's Word, not man's word) makes us as a tree planted by the rivers of life. God's Word is true. As it is written,

    Romans 3:3

The truth is in God's Word, not in the words of Pontiff J., or Pastor Brown, or Church tradition 88, or Tony Warren. The Truth is in God's Word. And if we don't read it in God's Word, then it's not God's Word. In determining which word has the authority, let God be true, and every man a Liar.

Let us therefore remember that scripture declares that if we build upon a foundation that is not the Word of God, and will not hear God's Word, then we build on a foundation which will crumble when the winds blow and the rains come (luke 6:47-49). God likens us then to a foolish man. The wise in Christ will build upon God's Word alone as the supreme authority. Sola Scriptura! A firm foundation on the Word of God, which will never fall.

May the Lord who is Gracious and merciful above all, give us the wisdom and understanding to come to the truth of His most Holy Word.

A m e n !

Peace,

Copyright ©1998 Tony Warren
For other studies free for the Receiving, Visit our web Site
The Mountain Retreat! http://members.aol.com/twarren10/
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Feel free to copy, duplicate, display or distribute this publication to anyone who would like a copy, as long as the above copyright notice remains intact and there are no changes made to the article. This publication can be distributed only in it's original form, unedited, and without cost.

Created 8/3/98 / Last Modified 3/23/02
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TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: haloofhatred; protestant; solascriptura
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To: Diego1618
"Because the Roman Church insists that Friday was the day of crucifixion is no reason you should keep that tradition."

You missed my point. It is clear that Jesus predicted that he would rise on the THIRD day. Start the count-down whatever day pleases you, but you have to start on a day (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44, John 19:31). To get three nights into the equation, you have Jesus arising on the 4th day, or the 3rd night, but NOT the 3rd day!

A few things you may be overlooking, which I don't have the definative answer to....

Jonah didn't have to be swallowed or reguritated on any specific day, therefore his "three days and nights" could have started anytime. Calvary has a specific start and end time.

The "days and nights" conotation may have had more then one meaning. When we use the term "day" it doesn't always mean 24 hours. When I get home from work, my wife asks "Did you have a good day?" She's not talking 24 hours. Because I work varying shifts, she's also not just talking daylight hours.

The answer to conotation would have to be answered by someone who has studied Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages, which I haven't. However, I can easily see where "three days and three nights" was a general term for three days. Especially when the third day is emphasized far more.

Sincerely
261 posted on 08/20/2006 4:18:59 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: DouglasKC
"The reason for quoting the verse was to show that there is a scriptural precedent, from the mouth of Christ, to show that he can and did consider a day and a night more than just "part" of day and night."

Context is everything, though. Like I posted to Diego, I work varying shifts, so when my wife asks, "How was your day?" she isn't talking about my last 24 hours. She's also not even limiting it to the daylight hours. However, she also asks me, "How many days will you be gone this month?" and the direction is toward a 24 hour day answer. I'm sure that in Jesus's day there were phrases that had multiple meanings.

Besides, you skipped the reality that night and day in Alaska is more then 12 hours. So was Jesus lieing, or are you making a contextual assumption?

"This included Israel AND gentiles:"

Again, this is OT times. Jesus nor the Apostles EVER command it to the Gentiles of the new covenant.

"Sure you do. It's called "moral relativism" and it's often the justfication for breaking all of God's commandments."

So you think that you could go to the deep jungles of Brazil and find a tribesman that would know that Sabbath breaking is wrong, just like murder, stealing, etc.? The point is that the moral laws are written on all of our hearts, and the ceremonial ones (like circumcision and Sabbath keeping) aren't. If you don't see that, then there probably nothing further I can say.

Sincerely
262 posted on 08/20/2006 6:17:48 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: DouglasKC
"The sabbath commandment was written by Christ at Sinai, with his own finger, before he became incarnate. "

Sure, and Abraham was told by God to sacrifice Issac. So is that carried over to you and I? No, because of context. Jesus reiterated specifically the other commandments but not the Sabbath. You fail to recognize the context of the commandment.

"The sabbath is part of God's law."

Here again, the other commandments are SPECIFICALLY mentioned. Sabbath keeping is not.

"Sure it is:

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. "


The fact that you post this verse befuddles me. All this verse is saying is that the Jewish women were respecting their traditions. There is NO New Testament verse which says, "Breaking the Sabbath is a sin" or "Keep the Sabbath."

"There is no moral law written on anyone's heart, except those who have God's holy spirit."

Really?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


"Jesus didn't break the sabbath. It's impossible for him to sin."

I didn't say that he sinned. Read Matt. 12:1-4. Jesus explains that the rules of breaking the Sabbath didn't apply to the priests. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the disciples were like priests, therefore they could "break the Sabbath" rules. If the Sabbath does not bind Christ and if we are "in Christ", then the Sabbath does not bind us either.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Keeping the Sabbath is a "flesh" thing. Loving God is a "spirit" thing.

" Only those who worship the one, true God were commanded to keep the sabbath perpetually. In fact, God established a special covenant for this purpose:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.


Context. Read 31:12. The Lord spoke to Moses to speak to the children of Israel...This is a specific people. We are grafted into the line of Abraham, but how did that happen. Jesus (the Seed) came.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The law served UNTIL the seed (Jesus) came.

"I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the sabbath in response to how long Jesus was in the grave,"

I think you just forgot what started this. Kerryusama04 started in on Sabbath worship being a tradition we should keep. I responded. The "days in the grave" discussion is a side of that original "Sabbath" debate.

Sincerely
263 posted on 08/20/2006 7:01:35 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: kerryusama04
"I was rude to you and I shouldn't have been."

Apology accepted. I too, suffer from extreme sarcasm. 8^)

Have a great day.
264 posted on 08/20/2006 7:04:42 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc; DouglasKC
Here again, the other commandments are SPECIFICALLY mentioned. Sabbath keeping is not.

The Sabbath is mentioned over 50 times in the NT. Douglas has posted several times when the commandment was repeated. Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated that He would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. He also said He would be raised "on the third day". This means that He could not have possibly been crucified on Friday and Raised Sunday. There is no third night in that equation. Jesus specifically and repeatedly said this, yet you continue in Rome's tradition.

I think you just forgot what started this. Kerryusama04 started in on Sabbath worship being a tradition we should keep. I responded. The "days in the grave" discussion is a side of that original "Sabbath" debate.

Please do not misquote me. Sabbath keeping is a commandment, not a tradition. Sunday keeping is Rome's tradition made contrary to scripture.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

If, as you contend, the Law ended with Christ, then what is there to mediate? Shal we debate what the meaning of the word "is" is?

Does this verse mean anything to you?

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

265 posted on 08/20/2006 7:37:15 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: ScubieNuc
p.s. These two verses are used to say the Law was ended or fulfilled with Christ. (Granted, I know of no thesaurus that equates fulfill with end.)

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Please note that in Matt 5:18 fulfilled is the Greek word ginomai and in John 19:30 finished is the Greek word teleo. I don't know Greek, but I do know those aren't the same words nor do they mean the same thing.

266 posted on 08/20/2006 7:45:44 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: DouglasKC
"Oh, okay I see. Jesus did not die on a Friday. He was crucified and died just before sunset Wednesday. He was placed in the grave at or just before sunset.He was resurrected on the sabbath, just before sunset, three days and three nights later."

No, you obviously don't see. Pick any starting day you like, but it has to be day because around 3pm Jesus died (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44, John 19:31).

You pick Wednesday day so thats day 1. Wed. Sunset to Thur. sunrise=night 1. Thur. sunrise to sunset=day 2. Thur. sunset to Fri. sunrise=night 2. Fri. sunrise to sunset=day 3. Fri. sunset to Sat. sunrise=night3. Sat. sunrise to sunset=day 4. To get three nights into the equation, you have Jesus arising on the 4th day, or the 3rd night, but NOT the 3rd day! Jesus definately said he would rise on the THIRD day.

"There is no conundrum if you simply believe that Jonah was actually in the fish literally three days and three nights and if you believe Christ when he said that was the sign that he was the messiah.



Now was it a sign or an exact, to the hour prediction? What about "a day is as a thousand years" thing? Look at the Greek word for sign, semeion. It means a miracle, wonder, token. Was the miracle of Jonah the time or the fact that he was thought dead, but then was back doing what God wanted him to do. If you notice, the Matt. 16:4, Mark 8:12, and the Luke 11:29 account doesn't even mention the "three days and nights." Which leads to you to understand that the miracle wasn't in the exact "days and nights" like you would like it.

"1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

God isn't the author of confusion, but you sure seem to like it. A person has to do mental gymnastics to follow the reasoning you give for a required "keeping of the Sabbath" for Christians.

Sincerely
267 posted on 08/20/2006 8:22:41 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: kerryusama04
"The Sabbath is mentioned over 50 times in the NT."

Kerry, I don't understand how you are missing what I am saying. Of Course I can find the word "Sabbath" many times in the NT. That is not the same as the Sabbath being specifically mentioned to be kept. Try this list of sins....

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries (7th), fornications, murders (6th),

Mar 7:22 Thefts (8th), covetousness (10th), wickedness, deceit (9th), lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy (3rd), pride, foolishness:

Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Notice, this is Jesus speaking and he doesn't mention the words "Sabbath breaking." There are other lists of sins, and Sabbath breaking is not SPECIFICALLY mentioned once. All that you, Diego, and Douglas say is it is PART of the commandments. My point (for the last time) is that the other commandments are SPECIFICALLY condemned by name, Sabbath keeping and Sabbath breaking is not SPECIFICALLY ordered or condemned.

" Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated that He would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. He also said He would be raised "on the third day". This means that He could not have possibly been crucified on Friday and Raised Sunday. There is no third night in that equation. Jesus specifically and repeatedly said this, yet you continue in Rome's tradition."

No, you obviously don't see. Pick any starting day you like, but it has to be day because around 3pm Jesus died (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44, John 19:31). You pick Wednesday day so thats day 1. Wed. Sunset to Thur. sunrise=night 1. Thur. sunrise to sunset=day 2. Thur. sunset to Fri. sunrise=night 2. Fri. sunrise to sunset=day 3. Fri. sunset to Sat. sunrise=night3. Sat. sunrise to sunset=day 4. To get three nights into the equation, you have Jesus arising on the 4th day, or the 3rd night, but NOT the 3rd day! Jesus definately said he would rise on the THIRD day.

"Please do not misquote me. "

Relax, it was a general overview of how "Sabbath keeping" detoured into "three days and nights." I'm sure Doug and anyone else reading these posts knows what you believe.

"If, as you contend, the Law ended with Christ, then what is there to mediate? Shal we debate what the meaning of the word "is" is?"

Huh? Galatians tells us that what the law couldn't do Christ did. The law points to sin, Christ redeems us from the penalty of sin. Before Christ, all men could do was the works of righteousness. But what is man's righteousness....filthy rags!

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Who is the only one who's righteosness exceeded the scribes and Pharisees? It's Jesus, that's who. The point of those scriptures is not how you are saved, rather how lost you really are.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Sincerely
268 posted on 08/20/2006 8:57:25 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: Thinkin' Gal; DouglasKC

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but it is obvious that tradition in religion is one of the ways men are decieved into false worship.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

In fact, Paul in Colossians really deals with how traditions had replaced sound doctrine and that applies today as much as it applied then.

It is HEALTHY to look at traditional teachings, celebrations, religious practices, etc to see whether or not they are actually truhful or cantaminated with man's ideology.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so


269 posted on 08/20/2006 9:13:59 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: kerryusama04
"These two verses are used to say the Law was ended or fulfilled with Christ. "

Be careful, you are coming close to putting words into my mouth. I never said the law ended. This is what I posted..

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The law served UNTIL the seed (Jesus) came.

Maybe, I should be a little clearer...the Mosaic law served until Jesus came. I believe you are getting hung up on something else. Was murder wrong before the Mosiac laws were etched? Is it wrong today? Yes, of course. These are moral laws which will always be. Was murder wrong before Adam and Eve sinned? Yes. Will murder be wrong after we are in heaven and sin is judged? Yes.

Now compare that to Sabbath keeping. Gen. 2:1-3 talk about the Lord blessing the 7th day, but no word of it given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. In fact, all 50 chapters of Genesis are silent about the Sabbath. You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Issac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. You never see any verses which say the Sabbath is to all mankind. When God offers things to all of mankind it is clear. (see Matt. 28:19, John 3:16, Act 2:17, 1 Tim. 2:4, Titus 2:11)

The wages for sin is Death. That law hasn't changed. The condition of Jesus has given us the gift of God, which is salvation.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice it doesn't say, "the gift of God is eternal life through maintaining the law." That's because it can't be done. When SDAist add that you must keep the Sabbath, then Salvation becomes maintained through your works. What is a gift? Something that is given with no strings, or something that is earned? If you earn it, then it's wages.

Sincerely
270 posted on 08/20/2006 10:14:20 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc; DouglasKC; kerryusama04
Start the count-down whatever day pleases you, but you have to start on a day (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44, John 19:31). To get three nights into the equation, you have Jesus arising on the 4th day, or the 3rd night, but NOT the 3rd day!

The fourteenth of Nisan [Leviticus 23:5] as the lambs are being slaughtered in the temple our Saviour is also being slaughtered on Golgotha. This is Wednesday, between the evenings....or about 3:00 P.M. The preparation day for the Passover.

[Matthew 27:57-60] [Mark 42:46] [Luke 23:50-54] [19:31-42]. Wednesday, being the preparation, he was laid in the tomb shortly before sunset....as the Sabbath was (Epiphosko) drawing on.

As Douglas is fond of saying...."Stay with me now". Wednesday sundown/Thursday sundown = First 24 hour day. Thursday sundown/Friday sundown = Second 24 hour day. Friday sundown/Sabbath sundown = Third 24 hour day. 72 Hours in the tomb as Matthew 12:40 prophesied.

Another way to count it is in the tomb at sundown on Wednesday. Nisan 15 is Wednesday evening/ Thursday = one day. Nisan 16 is Thursday evening/Friday = two days. Nisan 17 is Friday evening/Sabbath = the third day and resurrected at sundown....72 hours after entering the tomb.

A point I would like to make at this time is that Jesus said he would be in the tomb 72 hours....not dead 72 hours. He obviously expired prior to the entombment and Joseph of Arimethia hurriedly attempted to get the body in the tomb before the sundown.

271 posted on 08/20/2006 10:29:48 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: ScubieNuc
Kerry, I don't understand how you are missing what I am saying.

I hear what you are saying, but I believe the Bible over Rome's, Luther's, or Calvin's doctrines. Jesus did not say NOT to confess your sins to a priest. Jesus did not say NOT to pray to Mary, He only said it was better to hear the WORD OF GOD AND BELIEVE. The Word of God is both the OT and NT.

No, you obviously don't see.

It is not I that don't see. For your contention to be correct AND adhere to Jesus' own prophesy about Himself, 3 nights have to pass.

You posted the answer to your own question:
Huh? Galatians tells us that what the law couldn't do Christ did. The law points to sin, Christ redeems us from the penalty of sin. Before Christ, all men could do was the works of righteousness. But what is man's righteousness....filthy rags!

Indeed, Jesus paid the penalty for sin. Sin remains and is defined as transgression of the Law, thus the Law remains.

You force a false choice between Christ and Christ's Law. Jesus wrote the Law. Jesus told us to pray, "on earth as it is in heaven". The Law is followed in heaven because those in heaven who sinned have been kicked out. The Revelation explains clearly that the devil is making war with the "rest of her seed". The Her is the True Church that flourished in the wake of Christ's ministry. The "rest of her seed" are those who keep the testimony of Jesus and the Commandments of God. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, shall we sin so that grace may abound? It sure seems like Protestant numero uno thinks so:

American Edition of Luther's Works, vol. 48, p. 282: "Be a sinner and sin boldly. No sin will separate us from the Lamb (Christ) even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

Transgression of the Law = sin. The Sabbath is Law #4. It is that simple.

No Bible writer has ever espoused keeping Sunday Holy. So, why do it? Why not the Sabbath? Even if it is not specified in the NT (my Bible includes the OT, if you want you can get one for free at E Sword ) why Sunday? Even if Christ was resurrected on Sunday, the change wasn't even commanded by a clergy man! The change was commanded by Emperor Constantine to legislate spiritual adultery in order to maintain his power!

Only Catholics go to church on Sunday. They know it and they are grinning from ear to ear seeing Protestants play scriptural twister trying to justify worshipping in the image of Rome.

272 posted on 08/20/2006 11:16:25 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: Diego1618; topcat54; DouglasKC
You responded a few posts back...

"There is indeed a Hebrew idiom that counts part of one day as a whole day......unless both days and nights are mentioned....and then the meaning is literal."

Where is your exception found? Here's something borrowed from a post from topcat54...

First of all, in the Hebrew culture, time doesn't start with zero, it starts with 1. So you have day 1, day 2, and day 3. Any part of day 1 is "one day". Any part of day 1 and day 2 is "two days". And so on.

Look at an example in Scripture:

"So when he had eaten, his strength came back to him; for he had eaten no bread nor drunk water for three days and three nights." (1 Sam. 30:12)

Now look at the next verse:

"Then David said to him, 'To whom do you belong, and where are you from?' And he said, 'I am a young man from Egypt, servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind, because three days ago I fell sick.'"

Note how "three days ago" corresponds to "three days and three nights". If a literal 72 hours period were in view, we would think of this time period as "four days ago", not three.

Jesus uses similar language in Luke 13:32,33:

"And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.' Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."

Using the same language as Jesus, it is quite reasonable to speak of the days of His crucifixion as being "today" (Friday), "tomorrow" (Saturday/sabbath), "and the third day" (Sunday).


All these passages and other help us to understand the historical and cultural setting from which these phrases arise.

Plus when you look at the context of the "Jonah" quote, you see something else proclaimed in the other gospels...

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now was it a sign or an exact, to the hour prediction? What about "a day is as a thousand years" thing? Look at the Greek word for sign, semeion. It means a miracle, wonder, token. Was the miracle of Jonah the time or the fact that he was thought dead, but then was back doing what God wanted him to do. If you notice, the Matt. 16:4, Mark 8:12, and the Luke 11:29 account doesn't even mention the "three days and nights." Which leads to you to understand that the miracle wasn't in the exact "days and nights" like you would like it.

"Wednesday sundown/Thursday sundown = First 24 hour day."

Until you can prove that your "unless..." at the start of this is acurate from the bible, Wednesday until Sunset would be day 1. From Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset would be day 2. and so forth.

Diego, we have been around this already. I do not see Sabbath keeping as a command to Christians. If you wish to worship on Saturday, that's fine. In fact, even if you proved that Jesus rose on Saturday, that would not change anything as far as Sabbath keeping goes. Jesus said to worship him in spirit and in truth, so the actual day that you do it, doesn't matter.

You and Douglas have presented your cases quite well, but I still see the evidence lacking. I feel for us to continue on this, hashing and rehashing, does not serve the Body of Christ. We have defended our faith, and the rest is in God's hands. I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Your Brother in Christ,
273 posted on 08/20/2006 11:33:34 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc
Maybe, I should be a little clearer...the Mosaic law served until Jesus came. I believe you are getting hung up on something else. Was murder wrong before the Mosiac laws were etched? Is it wrong today? Yes, of course. These are moral laws which will always be. Was murder wrong before Adam and Eve sinned? Yes. Will murder be wrong after we are in heaven and sin is judged? Yes.

Murder will be impossible after the judgment! The Sabbath was kept prior to it being written down. Pay very close attention in Exodus. Moses knew the Sabbath prior to receiving the Law:

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The Hebrews kept the Sabbath in the desert. Pay very close attention to the LORD part. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, He is the one being revered on Sabbath.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Note, another mistaked tradition. The Golden rule is actually the Golden rules! The first Golden rule is to love God. How do you love God if you do not do what he says and show Him respect for His Creation by resting on the day He rested! Being God, He did not need rest, He was inventing it to show us how to live.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The wages for sin is Death. That law hasn't changed. The condition of Jesus has given us the gift of God, which is salvation.

There you go again with the sin. If sin remains, then the law remains. All of it. If it is buffet style, or it the Old Testament does not matter, then why not have women priests. Why not have homo priests? You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. Trying to define out what YOU feel is not part of the Law, trying to say Sabbath keeping is not part of the moral Law, it pure man created folly.

Notice it doesn't say, "the gift of God is eternal life through maintaining the law." That's because it can't be done. When SDAist add that you must keep the Sabbath, then Salvation becomes maintained through your works. What is a gift? Something that is given with no strings, or something that is earned? If you earn it, then it's wages.

If a man invites you to his house and asks you to remove your shoes and you refuse and still enter. Will he invite you back? Recall the parable of the wedding:

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

The gift is free, but there comes responsibility with this gift.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Again, the whole thing goes to motivation. Trying to earn salvation by not stealing cars is not the way. You could never accept Jesus and never steal, murder, break the Sabbath, worship and idol, etc. Not breaking the Law cannot earn one into heaven. The outward signs of conversion are obedience. If one truly loves the Lord Jesus Christ and accepts His death and resurrection, then one will be motivated to live as He lived. The problem is that we cannot purge the sin out of our lives. Does that mean we shouldn't try, or even worse, basque in sin so that grace may abound? Yea, God forbid, for through faith we establish the law.

274 posted on 08/20/2006 11:40:21 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: DouglasKC; Diego1618

How did Jonah know three days and three nights had passed? Was it Casio, Seiko, sun-roof, or God? Blessed are they who believe and do not see.


275 posted on 08/20/2006 11:46:05 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04
"I hear what you are saying, but I believe the Bible over Rome's, Luther's, or Calvin's doctrines. Jesus did not say NOT to confess your sins to a priest. Jesus did not say NOT to pray to Mary, He only said it was better to hear the WORD OF GOD AND BELIEVE. The Word of God is both the OT and NT."

How about over Mrs. White's? I think you mistake me for a Catholic, which is actually kind of funny. I too believe the Bible is both the OT and NT. I also believe in understanding context. Or else we better start stoning prostitutes.

" It sure seems like Protestant numero uno thinks so:"

Now you think I'm a Lutheran. Hehe. This too is a familiar Catholic type attack. While I recognize Luther was a vessel used by God, I would never ascribe him to be perfect. Heck, the recent Newsweek article on Billy Graham revealed some doctrinal deficiencies in Billy. However, Billy Graham is also a vessel that God has used. In the future I recommend just using scripture to combat my views, it's the only thing I ultimately respect.

"No Bible writer has ever espoused keeping Sunday Holy. So, why do it? Why not the Sabbath?"

What is Holy? Separated or set apart. I see a call for Christians to be holy. I don't see a call for Christians to keep any specific day holy.

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Worship on the Sabbath if you wish. To me this is like eating food offered to idols. Also, if your faith is shaken by not worshiping on Saturday, then it would be a sin to you.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

BTW, I agree with you that Rome has taken alot of liberties, and declared things that aren't true (but that's a whole other debate). I think all the arguements have been laid on the table. If you don't buy mine, that's fine. I certainly don't buy most of yours, but that's fine too. In the end it will be God that will judge our soul. I'm going to be busy for awhile, so this is probably my last response.

Sincerely
276 posted on 08/20/2006 12:05:14 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: Eagle Eye
I like your homepage. Welcome back.

"Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee.

For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.

I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living. " -- Psalms 116:7-9


277 posted on 08/20/2006 12:15:39 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: ScubieNuc; topcat54; DouglasKC; kerryusama04; XeniaSt
You responded a few posts back... "There is indeed a Hebrew idiom that counts part of one day as a whole day......unless both days and nights are mentioned....and then the meaning is literal." Where is your exception found?

Hebrew Idiom See sentence #2. When both days and nights are mentioned it ceases being an Idiom.

278 posted on 08/20/2006 2:12:18 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: kerryusama04; DouglasKC
How did Jonah know three days and three nights had passed? Was it Casio, Seiko, sun-roof, or God? Blessed are they who believe and do not see.

I think it was the fish who got the first word; Jonah 2:10

279 posted on 08/20/2006 2:35:33 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618; ScubieNuc; DouglasKC; kerryusama04; XeniaSt
Hebrew Idiom See sentence #2.

One problem with this explanation is that it flatly contradicts the timeline in Luke 24, especially:

"Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. ... He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.' And they remembered His words. ... But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened." (vv. 1,6,7,8,21)

Jesus interprets this usage for us infallibly when He said, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." (Luke 13:32)

So it would be impossible for Jesus to be crucified in any day other than Friday and to have thee things fulfilled "on the third day" which we know was Sunday. Bullinger just got it plain wrong in his Companion Bible.

Another problem is that this explanation does not seem to square with what earlier Jewish writers taught on the subject, e.g.,:

A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it." (from The Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix as quoted in Hoehner, Harold W, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ—Part IV: The Day of Christ’s Crucifixion,” Bibliotheca Sacra).
So any portion of a day fits within the designation "a day and a night". So then three days and three nights do not have to fit neatly into a fixed 72 hours time slot.

Another author put it this way:

The principle which governed their [Jewish] thinking in such matters has been rather clearly set forth in some of their own commentaries on the Scriptures. It is this: that any part of a whole period of time may be counted as though it were the whole. A part of a day may be counted as a whole day, a part of a year as a whole year. Furthermore, a part of a day or a part of a night may be counted as a whole "night and day." I suspect that in the Lord's parable of the man who paid his labourers for a whole day, whether they had worked for a whole day or not (Matthew 20:1-16), is really a reflection of this principle. Thus, in the Babylonian Talmud, the Third Tractate of the Mishnah (which is designated "B. Pesachim," at page 4a) it is stated: "The portion of a day is as the whole of it." (Arthur Custance)

280 posted on 08/20/2006 4:31:53 PM PDT by topcat54
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