Posted on 08/26/2006 1:17:19 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02
Bunker can be quite acerbic. I think there's a place for his kind of witnessing.
If God determines to open someone's eyes and ears, those eyes and ears will be opened by whatever means God chooses. I just happen to think a reformed approach is more pleasing to God as it more approximates the truth.
Most people require milk before meat. I did. But ultimately, meat satisfies more than milk. And those to whom He gives teeth, let them chew. 8~)
It's semantics, isn't it? His name had been written in the Book of Life by God from before the foundation of the world and no man could erase it. Yet Nicodemus didn't know that until God chose a time to reveal it to him.
God gives understanding, and with understanding comes faith and repentance.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
That's why faith doesn't save; grace saves. Our faith is the means which God employs to make us understand that Christ took the punishment rightly due us.
Once I understood that, my faith was a lot stronger.
I agree, Baptists really get a working over from other denominations, always have, always will.
I think a lot of it is jealousy. See, all Baptist churches have or have access to swimming pools instead of those shallow baptismal fonts that look like bird baths. Who can ever remember being sprinkled as an infant or even as an adult but no one forgets baptism by immersion, especially in a cold lake, stream or when someone forgets to turn the hot water on in the baptismal tank (that's for us northerners).
"....and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
Not to belabor the point since you obviously agree with me but look at the tense and mood of the verb "believed". It is aorist indicative, a fact that an action was completed at a point in time. Now many can't point to a specific time, like kids brought up in a believing home, but God knows.
I was Rivited to this Facinating Read by Michael Bunker, and Also to the Excellent Posts my Fellow Believers in Christ Made on this Thread! Thank you all!
I've read Dr. Eckleburg's response, #18, I agree with him but let me add some clarifying comments which hopefully he would also agree with.
added comment:Once God selected us (before the beginning of time) that was it, there was nothing that Satan could do about it other then try to destroy the plan of God which God mapped out before the beginning of time. If Satan could destroy one little bit of that plan then he would make God out to be a lier.
I think one of the problems Satan has is he doesn't know all the details of the plan, so he might be thinking that he is making head way at destroying God plan when in actuality all he is doing is fulfilling it.
At first he tried to destroy all the possible lineages that the promise seed could come from but he failed even though he succeeded in killing and destroying a lot of people trying to do so. And after the cross he seceded in killing a lot of individuals, Christian and non-Christian.
A rhetorical question to ask is can Satan destroy anybody, Christian or non-Christian, with out God's permission, as far as Christians go I believe that Satan can not touch them with out permission and if God gives him permission to destroy them then I would have to say that God has already done the work in their heart to be saved, and has done all the works in their lifes that he has ordained which Satan may or may not recognize. Which brings up another rhetorical question and that is can Satan read anybodies mind? If so, which I don't think he can, there's not much we can do about it can we. But if he can't there's one good reason to disclpline oneself to not talk to your self when alone. But another rhetorical question has just come to mind and that is does Satan absolutely know those that are his and absolutely those that are not his, my answer to that is he doesn't know absolutely and has to take an educated guess as regard to everyone, and only at the great Judgment when the books are open will he know absolutely. But knowing that Satan has been around for a long time I would say that he probably can make pretty good educated guesses, and probably am better at it then we are.
I'm sure a lot of individuals he is not too worried about, a bunch he will keep an eye on, and some he has recognized as not one of his kids but one of God kids. And I'm sure these are the ones that he is most interested in destroying.
Getting back to a early question, can Satan destroy non Christians with out God permission, this I really don't know but I would guess that even in these cases he can not with out God permission. So if I am correct I've concluded that Satan can not do anyone harm with out God permission which in another way of thinking about it Satan can not do anything with out God's permission.
As far as responding to any comments about my comments I'm going to have to ignore them, I'll love to but this thread is already getting old, this comment has taken to long to write up and the list of things to get done never goes away. And I'm also sorry to not have any scripture to back my self up. Oh well that's the way it is, that's the way God has design me, so don't blame me to quick.
LOL!!! Well, at least most of us Baptists. ;O)
I don't think people can make other people "children of hell". What they CAN do is make others worst and degrade society. The Pharisees were doing just that with other people.
For example, stem cell researchers feel like they would like to use stem cells to cure diseases. Today I heard where British soccer players now want to bank their stem cells in order treat cartilage problems they'll have later in life from playing soccer. I think this is an excellent example of how we progressively degenerate society with our errors and how someone can make a person "twice the children of hell".
Here's my understanding. Eli, the priest had two sons(H & P). Eli concentrated so much on his work, thereby ignoring his sons, who turned into such bad little things, they were destroyed in O.T. King David did the same with his sons, but God just let them continue living so we could read about all the perverseness that results from the father neglecting his sons. Anyway, the whole point is, the fathers thought they were so special that the sons would just magically inherit the goodness and they needn't do a thing. And there's the double-trouble. Children must be taught. Samson is another example. His parents figured since he had special abilities from God, they could just sit back and watch the wind blow. And look at what happened in Samson's life. The sins of the father were multiplied in the sons, because the sons were not taught to do right...
But another rhetorical question has just come to mind and that is does Satan absolutely know those that are his and absolutely those that are not his..?
I think you're correct in Satan's ignorance. After all, he tempted Christ and incorrectly presumed he had a real shot at persuading Him to yield.
Good points. Sometimes we forget the Bible is an instruction manual as well as historical records and a consumer's guide to the warranty. 8~)
I'm becoming more of a Puritan as I age. 8~)
"Indeed the Word of God is like the sun, shining upon all those to whom it is proclaimed, but with no effect among the blind. Now, all of us are blind by nature in this respect... Accordingly, it cannot penetrate into our minds unless the Spirit, as the inner teacher, through his illumination makes entry for it." -- Calvin
The world is made up of those who will understand and those who won't understand; those for whom the Holy Spirit will illuminate the word and make possible its entry into their minds and hearts, and those less fortunate. Timing, like everything else, is from the Lord. Ripeness is all.
And I found this excellent essay this morning. Too much to read; too many yelling at me to make them lunch. 8~)
"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." -- Deuteronomy 30:5-7
Happy to see you again, KM.
Hope your back is behaving. Be sure to bend your knees. 8~)
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -- 1 John 5:13
I think life is most often a gradual awakening to the fact that God has determined that Christ paid for our sins in total.
Once we truly understand that, life seems to fall into place.
As God intends.
It's a figure of speech indicating the severity of the error of the Pharisees. Jesus was calling the Pharisees "sons of hell". The only thing they had going for them was that they had access to the truth but suppressed it in unrighteousness. Their disciples from among the gentiles had no access to the truth, only to the traditions of the Pharisees. Ultimately the Pharisees will be held accountable for their unrighteous proselytizing.
"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." (James 3:1)
Yeah. The Bible relates to daily life much more than many think...
Bunker says:
"There are two gospels abroad in the world today. The “Free Will” gospel exalts man and debases God’s salvation. It seeks God out of the flesh, and refuses Him his due. The “Sovereign Grace” Gospel (the only True Gospel), seeks God aright, and bestows upon God all the credit and the glory for the new birth. I did seek God. But I did not seek Him while I was dead. I sought Him after He quickened my spirit, and enlightened mine eyes, and drew me inexorably to Himself. Not of the will of man, but of God. That’s what your Bible says."
"The false “Free Will” gospel has many adherents and many missionaries, most of whom will never question themselves or even stop to think that they are creating children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are. Think about that. Most of these missionaries (just like many of you) are suffering from “I Disease”. I hear from these people every day, “I just want to put God first in my life”, they say; then listen to them: “I was saved when I saw that my life was going bad and I decided to go to church”, or, “I decided to go to a revival”, and “I saw that I was a sinner, and I needed to be saved, so I said the ‘sinner’s prayer” and I went forward to confess this to my priest (pastor), and then I got saved, and now I want to live MY life for God.” All that and they want to put GOD first in their life? How man “I’s” did it take to get to God? You’ve got “I Disease” out there, and it is communicable, and people are spreading it all over the world. Jesus looks at it totally differently:"
I understand the reference to Matt. 23:15, however that allusion is a poor slander of the work of Evangelists like Billy Graham, Luis Palau and Franklin Graham or missionaries under C&MA, AIM or CIM or student ministries like Inter Varsity or Campus Crusade. The Pharisees were directly opposing the word of Jesus. These ministries are advocating and promoting salvation by grace through faith. To say that those who have trusted Christ for their salvation, thinking they made the decision are “children that are TWICE the children of hell” because they have responded to a call to make a decision is a gross misreading of the doctrine of election. My point is the elect are never lost nor can they lose their salvation whether they respond to a call, come to an understanding over a period of time, or have a “Damascus Road” experience or think they made the decision of their own free will. God calls them where they are and in the circumstances they are in according to the understanding the Holy Spirit gives them at the time.
As far as Baptists requiring or promoting a “point in time” experience for baptism, I have never seen that as a requirement in any Baptist constitution nor have I ever heard of it as a requirement in any Baptist church that I have represented. What is required is a clear testimony that they are trusting Christ and only Christ for their salvation. Because it is “Believer’s Baptism” for the most part the candidates are adults that have come to an understanding of their need of salvation later in life so can point to a time when the Holy Spirit convicted them of the need but there are testimonies of those raised in believing homes who cannot point to a definite time but know they are trusting Christ for their salvation and are living that faith.
I think you make an excellent point about Eli. However, even godly parents can have bad kids. Samuel's children did not "walk" in his ways (1 Sam 8:5).
The scriptures are interesting in that there are numerous stories about godly women helping their children but it's next to impossible to find an example of a godly father/son relationship. I'm reminded of this every father's day. ;O)
BTW-For clarification, I'm reminded every Father's Day at church when the pastor has a very hard time finding a Biblical example of a great father/son relationship. I am fortunate to have a wonderful son who I enjoy a wonderful relationship with. It is only because of God's grace.
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