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The Doctrines of Regeneration and Conversion by Michael Bunker
http://lazarusunbound.com/bunker_regenerationconversion.shtml ^ | 8/26/06 | ALPHA-8-25-02

Posted on 08/26/2006 1:17:19 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02

***Since I wrote this almost a year ago, I have concluded that there are far fewer true Christians than I first thought, and far more 'ecclesiastical athiests' (or counterfeit 'christians') than I ever imagined. Truly, few there are that are truly saved***

“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:3-7)

March 15, 2004 – This is primarily going to be a discussion on Regeneration, but in discussing that critical doctrine, it is necessary that we also discuss the difference between Regeneration and Conversion, and the many horrible errors and confusions that are being perpetuated from the pulpits of modern apostate “christianity” today on the topic.

Paul teaches that all men (without exception) were once “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3); fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and that there was nothing to make us differ from the heathen and the reprobate (1 Cor. 4:7). If a man replies, “Well, my election as a sheep made me different from the goats from before my birth”, I would ask him to reconcile that belief with the plain statements of scripture that tell us that every man MUST BE BORN AGAIN in order to see the Kingdom. I would say to that man that his election had no effect on him at all prior to his regeneration, and that it was a reality that existed in the mind of his Creator, but did him no earthly good at all.

We can find some important facts about our former condition in Ephesians the 2nd Chapter:

1. We were “dead in trespasses and sins” and in need of “quickening” (2:1). Quickening” means to be “made alive” or “brought to life”.

2. We were “uncircumcised” (2:11), which means, our hearts were inclined away from God. We were heathen and unclean creatures.

3. We were “without hope” (2:12), which means had we not been quickened, we could not believe, repent or have faith. We were totally unable to do anything to help ourselves.

4. We were at “enmity” with God (2:15,17), which means we were NOT seeking God, but were at warfare with Him. We were not looking for peace with God; rather, we were complete and active enemies of God.

5. We had “no access” to God (2:18) at all, rather, we lacked the necessary requirement to seek or pursue God, that being the Spirit of God which is necessary for us to approach, look towards, or seek the Father.

6. We were “strangers and foreigners” (2:19), which is used to mean the OPPOSITE of “fellowcitizens with the saints”.

I have to make a point here, and we will prove and emphasize our point as we go along:

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE WE ENCOURAGED TO SEEK AFTER, OR TO WORK TOWARDS REGENERATION!

How could we? We were “without strength” (Romans 5:6). Romans 3:11 says, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God”. Just as you did not seek your first “generation” when you were conceived and born of a woman, you could not seek or work towards your “regeneration” or being born-again of the Spirit of God. Listen to how John says it, “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”. These are the things which were NOT involved in your regeneration:

1. Your blood (who your father is or what tribe you are from).

2. Your desire to seek God (no “decision for Christ”, or “seeking God”)

3. Your will (Only God’s will is the cause of regeneration).

It is that simple… Did you choose to be born? Then you did not choose to be re-born. Jesus inexorably ties “regeneration” with “generation”:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:3-8).

The false, so-called “Christianity” of today says, “I was seeking God, and He saved me”, but the Bible says that NO MAN sought Him. The Bible says that they could not even SEE the Kingdom!

Regeneration is a sovereign act of a Sovereign God, without any work of preparation at all in the life or heart of the one regenerated. Regeneration is also called “Quickening” and being “Born-Again” in the Bible. Regeneration is an invisible, internal act – worked upon the recipient, whereby he is made alive (where he was once dead); his heart is circumcised; his stony heart is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh, and he is enabled to seek the Kingdom of God. No man is drawn to the One True God at all, unless He is given a new heart first. The old, corrupt heart may indeed seek after “a christ”; it may indeed be religious. It may seek after religious piety and earthly goodness. Religious men may call themselves “Christians” and pat their own backs and thank themselves for being wise enough to use their “free will” to get saved. But the truly regenerate man can give no glory to any but Christ, for Christ said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). Arminians hate the words of Christ, especially when He says, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).

Regeneration is NOT conversion. You were not converted when you were regenerated. Regeneration is a one time act of God upon His elect children. While all men exist in a state of rebellion and open warfare against God, God (while we are yet enemies; while we yet war against Him) Sovereignly and by Grace alone makes some of these dead men a LIVING SPIRIT. This action is by God’s free and special Grace alone, not from anything foreseen in man, not because of any character or value in the one made alive, not because God foresaw that the man would eventually believe and come to Him, but because God will ENABLE his elect to believe and to repent and to come unto Him. Do you know that the Bible says that this is the exact same (and no less) than that power which raised Jesus Christ from the dead?

Do you see now how Arminianism and “Free Will” doctrines debase and slander God? Don’t you see how “Free Will” salvation attempts to rob God of His glory? Paul prayed:

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 1:17-20).

Just as Lazarus had no power to seek resurrection, and nothing but a dead and rotting corpse with which to call out to Christ; the Spirit of God must enable that which is dead to see Christ and to come to Him.

The new birth is of God, and God alone.

There are two gospels abroad in the world today. The “Free Will” gospel exalts man and debases God’s salvation. It seeks God out of the flesh, and refuses Him his due. The “Sovereign Grace” Gospel (the only True Gospel), seeks God aright, and bestows upon God all the credit and the glory for the new birth. I did seek God. But I did not seek Him while I was dead. I sought Him after He quickened my spirit, and enlightened mine eyes, and drew me inexorably to Himself. Not of the will of man, but of God. That’s what your Bible says.

False Religion Mixes and dangerously Confuses Regeneration and Conversion

The religious, so-called “christian” world has so horribly mangled the differences between regeneration and conversion – that when people hear the truth about the Sovereignty of God and His election and predestination of the Saints, they immediately default to either:

a) Trying to prove responsibility (which we never deny, but in fact emphasize), or,

b) Trying to figure out when they were “saved”. Was it when they said a prayer? Was it when they walked up to the priest (or pastor) and “made a decision”? When exactly was I saved? We’ll get to that…

It is critical to your spiritual health and well-being as a Christian that you understand the differences. Your spiritual growth will skyrocket and the eyes of your enlightenment will fly open when you first humble yourself and give God not part, not half, not some… but ALL of the Glory for making you spiritually alive, before you even sought Him.

Let’s look at some of the differences…

Whereas I am locked out of any participation in my regeneration, I am throughout the scripture commanded and enjoined to be converted. Regeneration is necessary and must precede conversion, but conversion is something with which I definitely have something to do. I am regenerated once for ever, according to the scriptures; but I am converted continuously and in different areas of my life, according to my regenerated will to have all of my life come under the government and Kingdom of God.

Jesus locked most of humanity out of the ability to be converted:

“And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them” (Mark 4:10-12).

Do you see what Jesus is saying here? He spoke in parables and hid things from the goats so that they would not be converted and show that their sins were forgiven them! Jesus is telling the disciples plainly that unless they are regenerated, they cannot see Him, believe on Him, understand Him – nor can they be converted! John says the same thing in his Gospel:

“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them” (John 12:40).

Regeneration is God’s Sovereign work bestowed upon His elect; it is the actual giving of ZOE’ (eternal spirit life) to men; it is a one time, invisible act of God, and it is totally perfect, complete, and irrevocable for ever.

Conversion is man’s response to the work of God, it is co-operational and conditional on obedience. It requires true spiritual fellowship with God, and the honest and sincere desire to be brought under God’s government and Kingdom. There is outward evidence of conversion called FRUIT; conversion is always partial (on this earth) and continual, and can be seen in different parts of our lives at different times. Conversion is the entering into the Kingdom of God.

This may hurt just a bit… I know many Christians who I truly believe are regenerated, born-again, eternally saved Saints of the Most High God; but I know very few converted Christians. Very few. Too many of God’s children are afraid of the Kingdom and in love with the world. Too many of God’s children are still listening to the world and the world’s increasingly ecumenical religious cult; and they are afraid of losing friends, loved ones, and personal peace and affluence in this world. Why would Christ bid you come unless He bid you come and die? What is it that you love so much that you refuse to be converted? The religious world bastardizes and confuses these words, because they are truly afraid of converted Christians.

Conversion is the response of a regenerated heart to a Sovereign God. Conversion is heeding and obeying the commandments of God.

Conversion shows that we love God.

Conversion is work.

Conversion is fleeing from one country and taking refuge in another.

Conversion is totally submitting our mind, will, and emotions to the government of God.

Now I want to talk for a minute about the confusion about the “when” of salvation. “When was I saved?” is a question people ask… and, Lord willing, I will get to the answer in just a minute. But it frustrates me that so many people are so confused as to the basic Biblical teachings concerning this issue…

So many people are flooding the world (primarily third world countries) in their misplaced zeal for missionary evangelism that they never stop to consider what Gospel they themselves have believed, and what Gospel they are spewing on the world. Jesus Christ Himself rebuked the Pharisees about this:

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (Matt. 23:15).

The false “Free Will” gospel has many adherents and many missionaries, most of whom will never question themselves or even stop to think that they are creating children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are. Think about that. Most of these missionaries (just like many of you) are suffering from “I Disease”. I hear from these people every day, “I just want to put God first in my life”, they say; then listen to them: “I was saved when I saw that my life was going bad and I decided to go to church”, or, “I decided to go to a revival”, and “I saw that I was a sinner, and I needed to be saved, so I said the ‘sinner’s prayer” and I went forward to confess this to my priest (pastor), and then I got saved, and now I want to live MY life for God.” All that and they want to put GOD first in their life? How man “I’s” did it take to get to God? You’ve got “I Disease” out there, and it is communicable, and people are spreading it all over the world. Jesus looks at it totally differently:

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father” (John 6:65).

Do you understand the importance of Jesus saying that NO MAN can come unto Him unless it is given unto him to come; and that ALL THOSE who the Father gives Him will come unto Him? Do you understand that these simple truths lock the Pharisees of that time and in the present from ever entering into the Kingdom? Where is your “I Disease” now?

Modern religionists want to take part in (and take credit for) regeneration, which they had nothing to do with, but they reject the continuing work of conversion and obedience in which they are specifically ordered to engage!

I get e-mails every day that honestly ask me, “How do I know if I am elect?” Now that is an honest question. But first we must agree that not only CAN you know, but the Bible exhorts you to make sure and to do not stop until you do know:

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:10).

If a man is hired to move a cord of wood, and he asks “how do I move it?” we must first agree that he CAN and that he MUST move it. It is his obligation. Peter says that if you will spend the time and effort to make your calling and election sure FIRST, that you will then have a way opened unto you into the Kingdom. Remember, the entering into the Kingdom of God is about your conversion. Make your calling and election sure, and you will then see your duty clearly. You will see the commandments of separation, of holiness, of obedience more clearly. Now the world sends out missionaries who don’t even believe that there EXISTS a divine “calling and election”! What kind of proselytes do you think these people make? If you do not even understand the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, why, you should be concerned with evangelizing yourself first. You should focus on making your calling and election sure. I know I am the elect when my doctrine is pure and undefiled, when God’s sovereignty in election and reprobation is the centerpiece of my belief system, when God’s providence is my worldview. I know that I am the elect when the TRUE Fruit of the Spirit is evident in my life and ministry (not the false and lying fruit taught in religious whorehouses today). I know that I am the elect when I daily seek to enter into the Kingdom; when I take the Kingdom by violence; when radical obedience without regard to consequence is my method. Most people say that they want the Kingdom, but they love the kingdoms of this world too much to take the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let’s talk about “when” you were saved. The religious One-World Cult has made this term “saved” into a costume that you can put on and take off at will. But the Bible is a little more clear about it.

1. God saved me eternally in His perfect, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent mind, before the foundations of the world were laid, when The Father (who exists out of time) promised a particular bride, a particular church, a particular people, to His Son. God purposed from all eternity to save me, and I was specifically on His mind, when I was engraved into the hands of Jesus, and written into the Lamb’s Book of Life.

2. God saved me legally by the completed work of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago when He fulfilled the law perfectly and served as a propitiation for my sins PARTICULARY, and when He served as my representative in completing the law on my behalf PARTICULARLY, and when He ascended to the right hand of the throne in Heaven and sat down next to the Father because His work was done.

3. God saved me particularly when I was regenerated by the Spirit of God in time. This happened NOT while I was seeking God or trying to please Him, but when I was dead in trespasses and sins, and bearing the weapons of my warfare against Him. Christ CAUSED me to be regenerated, gave me a heart of flesh and gave me the gifts of belief, repentance, and faith to seek Him aright.

4. God saves me continuously from peril and hardship, from temporal punishments and curses, from desperation and anguish, from the loss of peace and the loss of temporal safety, from all those things that are not according to His will concerning me… when I seek Him and follow after Him as His disciple.

5. God will save me gloriously, according to His promise, when one day very soon I die and am eternally resurrected and taken to be with Him where He is; or when He returns to this world to save the remnant of those who are left alive and remain when He bodily returns. On that day I will be saved from the body of this death and from the sting of death, and I will be securely ushered into the presence of our gracious heavenly Lord and Savior, in whom I live and move and have my being.

Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. The modernist invention of so-called “christianity” today is the false gospel heresy of free-will Pelagianism. It has been cooked up and re-hashed by the Romanist Anti-christ church, and it has been widely trumpeted and spread by the false prophets and lying Pharisees of the last day’s religious order.

If you are a child of God, regeneration is the work of God that is behind you; conversion is the work set before your eyes tonight. Would you have life? Then you must be born-again… it is the mysterious and Sovereign work of God and it is glorious to behold; but would you have life “more abundantly”? (John 10:10), then repent and be converted!

Whereas you are nowhere in all of scripture commanded to “be regenerated”, you are commanded throughout scripture to “repent and be converted” (Acts 3:19). Who will be converted? Only the regenerated can obey and follow the commands of God. God keeps regeneration solely under His complete command and control, but He has invited you to “be converted”.

Make no mistake, regeneration is a work done secretly inside the elect of God, but conversion only takes place outside the camp, where our Lord and Savior was mocked and scourged, put to an open shame, and made a spectacle to the world. Will you be converted? Then you must leave the City of Destruction and become a pilgrim and a stranger on your way to the Celestial City. Will you be converted? They you will turn your back to the false religious systems of the world, and you will seek first the Kingdom of God. Will you be converted? Then you will suffer all things for His sake; you will reject what is popular and emotional, for what is unpopular and painful. Will you be converted? Then you will embrace the stake, and the whip, and the rod; you will embrace the chains and isolation; you will embrace fires and lions; and you will hurry towards that which your flesh abhors. Will you be converted? There is no other way to enter the Kingdom than to shun the filthy and profane modern harlots, and all their daughters, and all their whorehouses, and to set your nose like a flint towards the Kingdom of Heaven.

I pray that many of you will be converted to Christ tonight.

I remain your servant in Christ Jesus,

Michael Bunker

*** Since I wrote this article, I have studied long and hard about this subject of salvation. After reading the Works of Thomas Shepard (especially The Sincere Convert), I have concluded that there are many, many "false salvations", that bear false fruit and feign good doctrine.

1. There are those that put on the form of religion through a light profession of faith, and they doubt not that God and Christ exist, and that they will one day give an account; but they live on with the false belief that God is "all mercy and no justice, all honey and no sting" - not realizing their perilous state, until they die and are sent from the presence of God into eternal damnation.

2. There are those who are made aware of their wicked estate, and their sins bear down upon them, and they seek religion to be saved from their sure place in hell; but they love this world so much, that they cannot put it down, so they seek the "bottom line", or what is the minimum duty I must meet to be saved. They speak well, and act well, but cannot and will not leave the world or fall upon Christ alone. They will have the world AND Christ, but never Christ alone.

3. There are those who truly reform themselves, correct themselves - seek right action above all things, even to the point of separating from the world and all unrighteousness. They wish to read the right books, hear the right sermons and desire to be directed from the paths of evil. They live their lives (as seen by others) as Christians and above board; but they never came to know their sin, and to hate it, and to recognize the reality of their state and to groan under the weight of it. They flee to a cardboard cutout of Jesus, which they build out of external duties that they hope will please him and satiate His wrath.

You may be regenerated, and struggle and suffer in your conversion; but if you are not regenerated, you will never truly be converted to Christ. You may go through many forms and styles of religion, but you will never be a true Christian if you are not reborn of the Spirit first. Many there are who will approach the throne of God only seconds after their deaths, and will be told “away from me ye cursed”. Those who know their state, and desire to flee from the wrath that is to come, and who find beauty and bottomless mercy in the love of Christ, will seek to work those works that are commanded of them as a sign to themselves that they are His. You will not save yourselves with your works, but you will surely damn yourself without them. You may flee to Christ only to be sent away from His presence, but if you do not flee to Him, you will certainly perish without Him.

Something to ponder.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: reformeddoctrines
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1 posted on 08/26/2006 1:17:21 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02
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To: drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

HAVE A GRACE FILLED WEEKEND!


2 posted on 08/26/2006 1:19:04 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: alpha-8-25-02

too many traditional dogmatic Catholics aim to impose their narrow-minded beliefs on the rest of us. These are supposed to be enlightened times.


3 posted on 08/26/2006 1:29:14 AM PDT by Moderate right-winger (Complacency inevitably leads to disasters; therefore, always be on your guard)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

'ecclesiastical athiests'

That is a term, that through the power of the Holy Spirit, will send a shutter down the spine of the elect.


4 posted on 08/26/2006 1:47:18 AM PDT by Gamecock (The GRPL: Because life is too short for bad Theology*)
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To: alpha-8-25-02; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; HarleyD; topcat54; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I really like Bunker and think he's excellent. On this one subject, Regeneration, I think he teeters on the edge of a hole sometimes dug by Baptists which tends to describe regeneration as an "event."

I've come to understand our salvation more in terms of God simply revealing His truth to us and permitting us to understand it. That's regeneration, which can come quickly or take years to solidify into our hearts and brains. Either way, it's the supernatural process whereby God personally reveals Himself and Christ's redemption of us through Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. And on this I know Bunker agrees.

I hope you post more threads from Bunker, Alpha. I admire his strength and clarity.

And I strongly encourage all Reformers to read Bunker's terrific book, "Swarms of Locusts."


5 posted on 08/26/2006 10:04:11 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Thank you! Bookmarked for serious study...


6 posted on 08/26/2006 12:24:08 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Excellent, excellent read! I most especially like the following sentence;

"Most people say that they want the Kingdom, but they love the kingdoms of this world too much to take the Kingdom of Heaven."


7 posted on 08/26/2006 1:52:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin; alpha-8-25-02

"Most people say that they want the Kingdom, but they love the kingdoms of this world too much to take the Kingdom of Heaven."



"Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die,
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die,
Once upon a time there lived a man and his name was Hezekiah,
He walked with God both day and night but he didn't wanna die,
He cried oh Lord please let me live death is close I know,
God smiled down on Hezekiah and gave him fifteen years to go."

"Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
Lord I wanna go to heaven, but I don't wanna die
So I long for the day when I'll have new birth
still I love the livin' here on earth
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die"


8 posted on 08/26/2006 2:34:05 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Very good poem. And King Hezekiah, so totally needed all the ills that came upon him, for that was the way for him to see how far he strayed from being a good king...


9 posted on 08/26/2006 2:43:41 PM PDT by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: alpha-8-25-02
***Since I wrote this almost a year ago, I have concluded that there are far fewer true Christians than I first thought, and far more 'ecclesiastical athiests' (or counterfeit 'christians') than I ever imagined. Truly, few there are that are truly saved***

He's probably right about the number of true believers. I also think there are really very few true atheists, but the ones that exist probably people the Church by a greater percentage.

It might even be likely that the atheist who shakes his fists at God in anger is closer to salvation than the 'Christian' who is just going through the motions, and really has a completely agnostic mind and heart. The atheist who feels compelled to constantly shake his fists at God believes with everything he's got, that God exists, it's just on the negative end of it. How you get to such a person, is a job only for God, and some of His greatest advocates have come from that camp, Alister McGrath, C.S. Lewis, etc.

10 posted on 08/26/2006 2:47:55 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; alpha-8-25-02; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; topcat54; P-Marlowe; Buggman; ...
"I think he teeters on the edge of a hole sometimes dug by Baptists which tends to describe regeneration as an "event."

Why do these threads always have to degenerate into a Baptist bashing thread. Why can't it be a Presbyterian bashing thread or a Methodist bashing thread or an Anglican bashing thread or a Reformed bashing thread or even a thin skinned Calvinist bashing thread? Always a Baptist. It's just a good thing we are so good natured and secure in our salvation, sanctification and perfection. By the way, regeneration is an event, a point in time occurrence. "You must be born again". Now I admit some of us might seem to be in perpetual childhood, but that is just slow maturing not prolonged spiritual pregnancy.
11 posted on 08/26/2006 2:50:33 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg
I vote for a MethoPresbiscopalican BASH!

I, too, feel for the baptists. It is clear to me that they were the church that bore the heat of the day when liberalism was let loose in the mainlines.

The assemblies, cogs, etc. are just old-time shoutin' baptists.

12 posted on 08/26/2006 2:55:00 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: alpha-8-25-02
Since I wrote this almost a year ago, I have concluded that there are far fewer true Christians than I first thought, and far more 'ecclesiastical athiests' (or counterfeit 'christians') than I ever imagined. Truly, few there are that are truly saved.

I suspect there will be a lot more people saved than you can imagine. I think it is pretentious to think that you are "truly saved" while others (who to you may appear more sinful than you) are not saved. Your salvation is not based on what you do, but on what God did for you.

13 posted on 08/26/2006 3:20:59 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: blue-duncan; Gamecock; xzins; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; OrthodoxPresbyterian; topcat54
Were you "regenerated" in an instant? One minute you're a goofy reprobate and the next minute you're happily among the elect?

It might feel that way. But the fact Christ paid for every specific sin you ever have or will commit predates your birth, let alone your awareness of your salvation.

Our understanding that Christ ransomed us comes at varying times and in varying degrees. I think some Reformed can get hung-up in Romanist hocus-pocus. Instead, regeneration is a "washing" (Titus 3:5) away of the old man, the patterns of sin left over from our first father, and a gradual, inevitable recognition of Christ within us.

Regeneration is God giving us the ability to shed the old man. Sanctification is our actual accomplishing of this through faith, repentance, and worship.

Calvin, Institutes, Vol.3, Part 4 -- 3. Regeneration by faith.

So the Apostle teaches when he says, "We all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord." Again, "Be renewed in the spirit of your minds" and "put ye on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Again, "Put ye on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." Accordingly through the blessing of Christ we are renewed by that regeneration into the righteousness of God from which we had fallen through Adam, the Lord being pleased in this manner to restore the integrity of all whom he appoints to the inheritance of life. This renewal, indeed, is not accomplished in a moment, a day, or a year, but by uninterrupted, sometimes even by slow progress God abolishes the remains of carnal corruption in his elect, cleanses them from pollution, and consecrates them as his temples, restoring all their inclinations to real purity, so that during their whole lives they may practice repentance, and know that death is the only termination to this warfare..."

14 posted on 08/26/2006 4:06:50 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; topcat54; P-Marlowe

"The false “Free Will” gospel has many adherents and many missionaries, most of whom will never question themselves or even stop to think that they are creating children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are"

Would someone please explain how one can create "children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are" if regeneration is an action of God in His elect while they are dead in trespasses in sin and unable to ask for regeneration, which, as he says, precedes conversion.

Either all that the Father has given to Christ will come to Him in spite of the halting message preached by ernest believers or their salvation is dependant on the effectiveness of our message and delivery.


15 posted on 08/26/2006 4:29:05 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; alpha-8-25-02; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; topcat54; P-Marlowe; xzins

"One minute you're a goofy reprobate"

No fair, you've been talking to K again.

Did there come a point in time when you were saved so that no one could pluck you out of God's hand or separate you from His love; when you were positionally made righteous?


16 posted on 08/26/2006 4:39:29 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02
I'm not sure of your question, but I think you're asking how anyone can impede another's salvation if God has chosen His elect from before the foundation of the world. Is that it?

We're told to preach sound doctrine. I presume that instruction is for our benefit as well as those who hear it.

I think walking the path of Christ is a lot more difficult than I ever imagined. I never really understood my arrogance and just how far I fall short of the goal until I returned to Scripture and to many of the Reformed creeds.

But every time I read them again, and every time I hear them again I am strengthened. Really knowing that one is a child of God, that God breathed our name and Christ on the cross at the same moment, and that NOTHING can keep His steadying hand from our arm is profoundly fortifying. During times of stress or doubt, that belief keeps a person's head afloat.

As God wills.

As I've come to believe, all Trinitarian Christians probably go to heaven, but it's the Reformed who worry least about the journey or its end. It's all good, one way or another, because it's all from God.

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. " -- 1 John 2:23-25


17 posted on 08/26/2006 5:18:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan
Did there come a point in time when you were saved so that no one could pluck you out of God's hand or separate you from His love; when you were positionally made righteous?

No, there was never a point in time when someone could pluck me out of God's hand.

I didn't always know that, of course. The full realization of that fact was fairly slow in coming. But thankfully, it took root and has blossomed into a lovely certainty.

18 posted on 08/26/2006 5:23:51 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; alpha-8-25-02

"I'm not sure of your question, but I think you're asking how anyone can impede another's salvation if God has chosen His elect from before the foundation of the world. Is that it?"

That is it.

I support a missionary to Poland who is a printer by trade. He has had trouble learning the language and works as a printer there. Yet he has been a tremendous witness by his trade and love for the Lord and the people he has been called to. He uses the "Four Spiritual Laws" and anything else he can get his hands on to witness and it is effective. People are being saved one at a time and involved in his Bible study. Yet if you were to listen to his testimony, he always asks for a decision to trust Christ for salvation and people respond to that invitation. For Bunker to say he is creating "children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are", to me is the heighth of presumption.


19 posted on 08/26/2006 5:39:50 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

We know that Nicodemus was a believer so when Jesus said to Nicodemus "You must be born again" had he at that time already been born from above"? Remember, Nicodemus asks "How can these things be?" so he did not understand and Jesus was not telling him that the new birth had already taken place in his life; just that he must be born again.

It appears that Jesus was speaking of a discrete event, not a process.


20 posted on 08/26/2006 5:45:27 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Bunker can be quite acerbic. I think there's a place for his kind of witnessing.

If God determines to open someone's eyes and ears, those eyes and ears will be opened by whatever means God chooses. I just happen to think a reformed approach is more pleasing to God as it more approximates the truth.

Most people require milk before meat. I did. But ultimately, meat satisfies more than milk. And those to whom He gives teeth, let them chew. 8~)


21 posted on 08/26/2006 6:28:04 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan
...when Jesus said to Nicodemus "You must be born again" had he at that time already been born from above"?

It's semantics, isn't it? His name had been written in the Book of Life by God from before the foundation of the world and no man could erase it. Yet Nicodemus didn't know that until God chose a time to reveal it to him.

God gives understanding, and with understanding comes faith and repentance.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

That's why faith doesn't save; grace saves. Our faith is the means which God employs to make us understand that Christ took the punishment rightly due us.

Once I understood that, my faith was a lot stronger.

22 posted on 08/26/2006 6:38:27 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan

I agree, Baptists really get a working over from other denominations, always have, always will.


23 posted on 08/26/2006 6:47:23 PM PDT by ladyinred (Leftists, the enemy within.)
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To: ladyinred

I think a lot of it is jealousy. See, all Baptist churches have or have access to swimming pools instead of those shallow baptismal fonts that look like bird baths. Who can ever remember being sprinkled as an infant or even as an adult but no one forgets baptism by immersion, especially in a cold lake, stream or when someone forgets to turn the hot water on in the baptismal tank (that's for us northerners).


24 posted on 08/26/2006 7:00:00 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

"....and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48


Not to belabor the point since you obviously agree with me but look at the tense and mood of the verb "believed". It is aorist indicative, a fact that an action was completed at a point in time. Now many can't point to a specific time, like kids brought up in a believing home, but God knows.


25 posted on 08/26/2006 7:15:19 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; All

I was Rivited to this Facinating Read by Michael Bunker, and Also to the Excellent Posts my Fellow Believers in Christ Made on this Thread! Thank you all!


26 posted on 08/26/2006 9:17:31 PM PDT by Kitty Mittens (To God Be All Excellent Praise!)
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg
Did there come a point in time when you were saved so that no one could pluck you out of God's hand or separate you from His love; when you were positionally made righteous?

I've read Dr. Eckleburg's response, #18, I agree with him but let me add some clarifying comments which hopefully he would also agree with.
added comment:Once God selected us (before the beginning of time) that was it, there was nothing that Satan could do about it other then try to destroy the plan of God which God mapped out before the beginning of time. If Satan could destroy one little bit of that plan then he would make God out to be a lier.
I think one of the problems Satan has is he doesn't know all the details of the plan, so he might be thinking that he is making head way at destroying God plan when in actuality all he is doing is fulfilling it.
At first he tried to destroy all the possible lineages that the promise seed could come from but he failed even though he succeeded in killing and destroying a lot of people trying to do so. And after the cross he seceded in killing a lot of individuals, Christian and non-Christian.
A rhetorical question to ask is can Satan destroy anybody, Christian or non-Christian, with out God's permission, as far as Christians go I believe that Satan can not touch them with out permission and if God gives him permission to destroy them then I would have to say that God has already done the work in their heart to be saved, and has done all the works in their lifes that he has ordained which Satan may or may not recognize. Which brings up another rhetorical question and that is can Satan read anybodies mind? If so, which I don't think he can, there's not much we can do about it can we. But if he can't there's one good reason to disclpline oneself to not talk to your self when alone. But another rhetorical question has just come to mind and that is does Satan absolutely know those that are his and absolutely those that are not his, my answer to that is he doesn't know absolutely and has to take an educated guess as regard to everyone, and only at the great Judgment when the books are open will he know absolutely. But knowing that Satan has been around for a long time I would say that he probably can make pretty good educated guesses, and probably am better at it then we are.
I'm sure a lot of individuals he is not too worried about, a bunch he will keep an eye on, and some he has recognized as not one of his kids but one of God kids. And I'm sure these are the ones that he is most interested in destroying.
Getting back to a early question, can Satan destroy non Christians with out God permission, this I really don't know but I would guess that even in these cases he can not with out God permission. So if I am correct I've concluded that Satan can not do anyone harm with out God permission which in another way of thinking about it Satan can not do anything with out God's permission.

As far as responding to any comments about my comments I'm going to have to ignore them, I'll love to but this thread is already getting old, this comment has taken to long to write up and the list of things to get done never goes away. And I'm also sorry to not have any scripture to back my self up. Oh well that's the way it is, that's the way God has design me, so don't blame me to quick.

27 posted on 08/26/2006 10:13:26 PM PDT by ReformedBeckite
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; alpha-8-25-02; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; topcat54; P-Marlowe; ...
It's just a good thing we are so good natured and secure in our salvation, sanctification and perfection.

LOL!!! Well, at least most of us Baptists. ;O)

28 posted on 08/27/2006 5:28:08 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; topcat54; P-Marlowe; ...
Would someone please explain how one can create "children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are" if regeneration is an action of God in His elect while they are dead in trespasses in sin and unable to ask for regeneration, which, as he says, precedes conversion.

I don't think people can make other people "children of hell". What they CAN do is make others worst and degrade society. The Pharisees were doing just that with other people.

For example, stem cell researchers feel like they would like to use stem cells to cure diseases. Today I heard where British soccer players now want to bank their stem cells in order treat cartilage problems they'll have later in life from playing soccer. I think this is an excellent example of how we progressively degenerate society with our errors and how someone can make a person "twice the children of hell".

29 posted on 08/27/2006 5:41:34 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: HarleyD

Here's my understanding. Eli, the priest had two sons(H & P). Eli concentrated so much on his work, thereby ignoring his sons, who turned into such bad little things, they were destroyed in O.T. King David did the same with his sons, but God just let them continue living so we could read about all the perverseness that results from the father neglecting his sons. Anyway, the whole point is, the fathers thought they were so special that the sons would just magically inherit the goodness and they needn't do a thing. And there's the double-trouble. Children must be taught. Samson is another example. His parents figured since he had special abilities from God, they could just sit back and watch the wind blow. And look at what happened in Samson's life. The sins of the father were multiplied in the sons, because the sons were not taught to do right...


30 posted on 08/27/2006 11:12:31 AM PDT by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: ReformedBeckite
Hi, RB. I agree with your excellent post, and I found this question of yours really intriguing. I'd never thought of it before.

But another rhetorical question has just come to mind and that is does Satan absolutely know those that are his and absolutely those that are not his..?

I think you're correct in Satan's ignorance. After all, he tempted Christ and incorrectly presumed he had a real shot at persuading Him to yield.

31 posted on 08/27/2006 12:46:35 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin; HarleyD; blue-duncan

Good points. Sometimes we forget the Bible is an instruction manual as well as historical records and a consumer's guide to the warranty. 8~)


32 posted on 08/27/2006 12:50:14 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan; HarleyD; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; Frumanchu
I think the POV that insists on a specific moment in time when believers have come or will come to a secure and true understanding of their faith often is predicated on our Baptist brothers and sisters putting so much insistence on adult baptism and the "conscious acceptance" of faith. As if that faith could not take hold of us without a public declaration. As if that faith does not come sometimes in bits and pieces and sometimes in thunderbolts and lightning. As if God absolutely requires an oath.

I'm becoming more of a Puritan as I age. 8~)

But Spiritual Discernment is Wholly Lost Until we are Regenerated by John Calvin

"Indeed the Word of God is like the sun, shining upon all those to whom it is proclaimed, but with no effect among the blind. Now, all of us are blind by nature in this respect... Accordingly, it cannot penetrate into our minds unless the Spirit, as the inner teacher, through his illumination makes entry for it." -- Calvin

The world is made up of those who will understand and those who won't understand; those for whom the Holy Spirit will illuminate the word and make possible its entry into their minds and hearts, and those less fortunate. Timing, like everything else, is from the Lord. Ripeness is all.

And I found this excellent essay this morning. Too much to read; too many yelling at me to make them lunch. 8~)

THE FAITH OF INFANTS by Francis Turretin

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." -- Deuteronomy 30:5-7

33 posted on 08/27/2006 1:34:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Kitty Mittens

Happy to see you again, KM.

Hope your back is behaving. Be sure to bend your knees. 8~)


34 posted on 08/27/2006 2:11:29 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -- 1 John 5:13

I think life is most often a gradual awakening to the fact that God has determined that Christ paid for our sins in total.

Once we truly understand that, life seems to fall into place.

As God intends.

35 posted on 08/27/2006 2:18:09 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe
Would someone please explain how one can create "children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are" if regeneration is an ...

It's a figure of speech indicating the severity of the error of the Pharisees. Jesus was calling the Pharisees "sons of hell". The only thing they had going for them was that they had access to the truth but suppressed it in unrighteousness. Their disciples from among the gentiles had no access to the truth, only to the traditions of the Pharisees. Ultimately the Pharisees will be held accountable for their unrighteous proselytizing.

"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." (James 3:1)

36 posted on 08/27/2006 3:33:00 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yeah. The Bible relates to daily life much more than many think...


37 posted on 08/27/2006 4:53:21 PM PDT by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: topcat54; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe

Bunker says:

"There are two gospels abroad in the world today. The “Free Will” gospel exalts man and debases God’s salvation. It seeks God out of the flesh, and refuses Him his due. The “Sovereign Grace” Gospel (the only True Gospel), seeks God aright, and bestows upon God all the credit and the glory for the new birth. I did seek God. But I did not seek Him while I was dead. I sought Him after He quickened my spirit, and enlightened mine eyes, and drew me inexorably to Himself. Not of the will of man, but of God. That’s what your Bible says."

"The false “Free Will” gospel has many adherents and many missionaries, most of whom will never question themselves or even stop to think that they are creating children that are TWICE the children of hell than they themselves are. Think about that. Most of these missionaries (just like many of you) are suffering from “I Disease”. I hear from these people every day, “I just want to put God first in my life”, they say; then listen to them: “I was saved when I saw that my life was going bad and I decided to go to church”, or, “I decided to go to a revival”, and “I saw that I was a sinner, and I needed to be saved, so I said the ‘sinner’s prayer” and I went forward to confess this to my priest (pastor), and then I got saved, and now I want to live MY life for God.” All that and they want to put GOD first in their life? How man “I’s” did it take to get to God? You’ve got “I Disease” out there, and it is communicable, and people are spreading it all over the world. Jesus looks at it totally differently:"

I understand the reference to Matt. 23:15, however that allusion is a poor slander of the work of Evangelists like Billy Graham, Luis Palau and Franklin Graham or missionaries under C&MA, AIM or CIM or student ministries like Inter Varsity or Campus Crusade. The Pharisees were directly opposing the word of Jesus. These ministries are advocating and promoting salvation by grace through faith. To say that those who have trusted Christ for their salvation, thinking they made the decision are “children that are TWICE the children of hell” because they have responded to a call to make a decision is a gross misreading of the doctrine of election. My point is the elect are never lost nor can they lose their salvation whether they respond to a call, come to an understanding over a period of time, or have a “Damascus Road” experience or think they made the decision of their own free will. God calls them where they are and in the circumstances they are in according to the understanding the Holy Spirit gives them at the time.

As far as Baptists requiring or promoting a “point in time” experience for baptism, I have never seen that as a requirement in any Baptist constitution nor have I ever heard of it as a requirement in any Baptist church that I have represented. What is required is a clear testimony that they are trusting Christ and only Christ for their salvation. Because it is “Believer’s Baptism” for the most part the candidates are adults that have come to an understanding of their need of salvation later in life so can point to a time when the Holy Spirit convicted them of the need but there are testimonies of those raised in believing homes who cannot point to a definite time but know they are trusting Christ for their salvation and are living that faith.


38 posted on 08/27/2006 5:00:52 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin

I think you make an excellent point about Eli. However, even godly parents can have bad kids. Samuel's children did not "walk" in his ways (1 Sam 8:5).

The scriptures are interesting in that there are numerous stories about godly women helping their children but it's next to impossible to find an example of a godly father/son relationship. I'm reminded of this every father's day. ;O)


39 posted on 08/28/2006 2:22:48 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: HarleyD; Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin

BTW-For clarification, I'm reminded every Father's Day at church when the pastor has a very hard time finding a Biblical example of a great father/son relationship. I am fortunate to have a wonderful son who I enjoy a wonderful relationship with. It is only because of God's grace.


40 posted on 08/28/2006 4:21:07 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: HarleyD; Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin

"I'm reminded every Father's Day at church when the pastor has a very hard time finding a Biblical example of a great father/son relationship."

Try God, the Father and Jesus, the Son. I think their relationship just might solve the problem.


41 posted on 08/28/2006 5:40:51 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe
My point is the elect are never lost nor can they lose their salvation whether they respond to a call, come to an understanding over a period of time, or have a “Damascus Road” experience or think they made the decision of their own free will. God calls them where they are and in the circumstances they are in according to the understanding the Holy Spirit gives them at the time.

The same could be said of the disciples of the Pharisees. No doubt some of them might have come into the kingdom by the tortured route of Pharisaism. God is, indeed, sovereign and can use all the poor attempts of men to preach His gospel.

That does not absolve the teacher to teach truth, or to present the gospel in a biblical fashion. Decisionalism is not a biblical gospel method. Humanly speaking we might have warm affecions for Graham, et al, but their methods leave much to be desired. I think this is the allusion to "twice the sons of hell".

At least that is how I read this author.

42 posted on 08/28/2006 5:54:53 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe
"..but their methods leave much to be desired. I think this is the allusion to "twice the sons of hell"."

I read his diatribe differently. He specifically states the message of Evangelists like Billy Graham, Luis Palau and Franklin Graham or missionaries under C&MA, AIM or CIM or student ministries like Inter Varsity or Campus Crusade creates "children that are TWICE the children of hell". they create nothing, it is the Holy Spirit that creates new life in whomever the Father has drawn. No where in the scriptures are children of God called "children of hell" and to do so, even for shock value, demeans and devalues the grace of God in the lives of those who have responded to the message by making them some sort of second class citizens in the family of God.

Paul covers the different methods of presenting the Gospel and as acerbic as he is at times with those who disagree with his methods or technique, he has only praise that the message is going out. Paul recognizes that the method of presentation is tailored to the audience, the situation, the place and the circumstance; all as the Holy Spirit leads. The message does not change but the method of delivery will.

1 Cor. 9:19-23, "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."

Phil.14-18, "And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
43 posted on 08/28/2006 7:00:33 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe
I read his diatribe differently. He specifically states the message of Evangelists like ...

No doubt, but it is you that is attaching personalities to the piece, not the author. Perhaps you are looking to gain sympathy to your view by naming names. The author chose not to do that.

However, I would point out that the responsibility to preach the gospel is primarily directed to the church, not to individuals operating in a semi-autonomous fashion under various boards of directors or as independent agencies. Billy Graham, Campus Crusade and Inter Varisty Christian Fellowship are not churches to the best of my knowledge.

IMO, the most extreme forms of decisionalism and the semi-Pelagian error comes from these independent entities.

No where in the scriptures are children of God called "children of hell" and to do so, even for shock value, demeans and devalues the grace of God in the lives of those who have responded to the message by making them some sort of second class citizens in the family of God.

Whether the disciples of any modern evangelist are "children of God" or not is known to God alone. The burden, according to the author as well as the Scripture, is on the teacher, not the disciple. The effect may be unfortunate, especially for those involved as the recipients of false evangelistic techniques, but it is the teachers who are responsible before God.

In case you hadn't noticed, the verses you quoted from Paul had nothing to do with the message, or how the gospel was being preached. They had everything to do with the motivation of the preachers. Paul nowhere hold up "bad preaching" as something to be admired or copied. In fact he warns against "false gospels" esp. those that mix works and grace. Cf. Galatians 1.

It should come as no surprise in these parts that Reformed Christianity has always considered Arminian-induced decisionalism as a false expression of biblical Christianity.

44 posted on 08/28/2006 8:01:27 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: blue-duncan; Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
Try God, the Father and Jesus, the Son. I think their relationship just might solve the problem.

That's what the pastor alway says. ;O)

45 posted on 08/28/2006 9:00:27 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: topcat54; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe

"No doubt, but it is you that is attaching personalities to the piece, not the author. Perhaps you are looking to gain sympathy to your view by naming names. The author chose not to do that."

Of course he chose not to do that. For him to give examples would cause him to have to explain how all of the converts under these ministries are going to hell as "children of hell" when they believe they have trusted Christ for their salvation.

"However, I would point out that the responsibility to preach the gospel is primarily directed to the church, not to individuals operating in a semi-autonomous fashion under various boards of directors or as independent agencies."

Paul says in Eph. 4:8-16, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Specific gifts were given to men to equip others to do the work of the ministry. Although we traditionally interpret these gifts as offices in the church they are to equip people to be able to do ministry, not just the church. Peter says, 1 Pe 4:10, "As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."

To limit the preaching of the gospel to the institutional church would render the mission work of William Carey, Hudson Taylor, Dawson Trotman, the Auca Indian martyrs, the evangelism of George Whitfield all to no avail.

"The burden, according to the author as well as the Scripture, is on the teacher, not the disciple."

The burden is on the Holy Spirit to make effective the call of God. All that these people are doing is sowing the seed of the gospel. The soil and the harvest are up to God and God alone. Nothing and no one can snatch the seed away from those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. The emphasis should be on the teaching after salvation; the maturing of the believer, not hindering those desiring to come into the kingdom.



46 posted on 08/28/2006 9:03:50 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I'm becoming more of a Puritan as I age. 8~)

lol, you will find that the hats and frocks wear well, and the buckles on the shoes never need shining

47 posted on 08/28/2006 9:45:15 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (why is it so difficult to understand?)
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To: blue-duncan; topcat54; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe
I agree b-d, the author gets a bit excited about regeneration. Perhaps stating these ministries are creating "twice the children of hell" is a bit of a reach. It's really not the author's place to judge.

That being said, topcat is right. We have an obligation to preach and teach the word accurately. I think it was Charles Spurgeon who stated something to the effect that he would preach as an Arminian but teach as a Calvinist. It is one thing to present the message of Christ so that people will respond to the hearing of the gospel, but it is quite another to teach them about regeneration contrary to God's word.

I've been involved with a number of the groups you've mentioned in time, effort and support. My wife, for a while, was on the ministry staff of one of these groups. In most cases they are very fine organizations. But their bible studies usually contain questions like:

Why we have lost the concept of election and regeneration I cannot understand. Even in our Baptist community we have all but lost our Calvinistic roots. I think the author is a bit overreaching and simplistic in his views. But given the volatile nature of this issue among Christians, it is far more than a simple doctrinal disagreement.
48 posted on 08/28/2006 9:53:40 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: blue-duncan; alpha-8-25-02; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; P-Marlowe
Although we traditionally interpret these gifts as offices in the church they are to equip people to be able to do ministry, not just the church.

Allow me to ask, can anyone come along and proclaim themself an apostle or prophets or evangelists or pastors or teachers?

There is good reason why "we traditionally" have interpreted this passage as referring to offices in the church. That's what Paul was dealing with. He did not have in view some quasi-ecclesiastical office.

"that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"

It is the church through its elders which has the duty to see that whoever apsires to these office have the true gifts and calling to teach the true faith.

"From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, ... Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears." (Acts 20:17,18,28-31)

The alternative is the sort of spiritual anarchy that exists in many quarters. Cults like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and Oneness Pentecostals and semi-cults like the "Toronto Blessing" folks of a few years back become the rule. Everyone is left to follow those who appear right in their own eyes.

Every man with a mic without ecclesiastical obligations gives you various and conflicting "winds of doctrine".

To limit the preaching of the gospel to the institutional church would render the mission work of ...

You're arguing pragmatism, not theology.

Nothing and no one can snatch the seed away from those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world.

Absolutely true. However, that does not absolve us of the responsibility to do things decently and in order. If the church through its officers is sanctioned by God with the care and feeding of the flock, then we ought to be very careful about setting up other groups to do that work.

The emphasis should be on the teaching after salvation; the maturing of the believer, not hindering those desiring to come into the kingdom.

How is requiring God's church to do its ordained part an cause for hindering folks from coming into the kingdom?

49 posted on 08/28/2006 10:09:33 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD

"Read Amos 1:4-7. How can you apply this to your life?"

Join the IDF, keep your head down and hold on to your seat.


50 posted on 08/28/2006 10:10:38 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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