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What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
Tribulation Forces ^ | Thomas Ice

Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins

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To: topcat54

Now as a good Christian, I am sure Tommy warned Salomon of the soon coming holocaustal judgment on Israel. And I am sure as a Christian pastor he presented Salomon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pointing out that He and He alone is "the way, the truth, and the life."
= = = =

Actually, all the dispensational believers I know with access to such people on tours to Israel . . . essentially, do exactly that.


21 posted on 09/01/2006 8:35:28 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Alex Murphy
In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c. His new math system now tells us a day is a thousand years, and thus he'd have us believe we're somewhere between 992 years away ("eight years into") and 1004 years away ("four years before") from the Second Coming (yes, his math is that precise). By date-setting the "Second Coming" date to about 1000 years in the future, it's now far ahead enough for Lindsey to avoid dying of embarrassment, should he miscalculate the date again.

Lindsey recycles books and wives as each ages out. I don't know how many times he's re-written his 70's stuff, changing the casts while leaving the plotlines. I have read that he's on marriage number four.

22 posted on 09/01/2006 8:36:42 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: topcat54

How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line? It's getting very old, and dispensationalists of all stripes are coming to realize that fact.
= = = =

I suspect it will be around as long as it describes objective reality so well.

Of course, The Great Tribulation and Armageddon will overtake a lot of other priorities quite soon enough.


23 posted on 09/01/2006 8:37:08 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Very interesting indeed. I do believe that God has a plan for Israel and the rest of us as well. That said, I will await His decision as to when this will occur and be known.


24 posted on 09/01/2006 8:38:49 AM PDT by unionblue83 (Duty is ours; consequences are God's. -- Stonewall Jackson.)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy; TomSmedley
I think you're pretty much culture bound in your request. Being from a church that has a confession that might mention such a thing, you forget that many churches are not nearly so formal. Some don't write lengthy confessions at all.

Then I'm surprised you would make such a assertion as being "historically true". How far back does your view of history go?

If you can't point to a document or something that can be scrutinized, what are you basing your assertion on?

25 posted on 09/01/2006 8:44:06 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: xzins
You seem to be arguing with Jesus on this point. The rabbinc/talmudic Judaism of his day exalted human say-so above God's Word to such an extent that it rendered God's Word null and void on point after point. During the donnybrook recorded in John 5 Jesus said,Like Mormonism, or the Unification Church, or David Berg's "Family of Love," rabbinic Judaism exalted human teaching above divine revelation, and offered an alternate, works-based plan of salvation -- just do what the rabbis/Joe Smith/Moses David/Sun Myung Moon say. It can be argued that the Judaism of our Lord's day had soaked up the Roman idea of salvation by law.

Now Jesus Himself called the religion of his day a cultic distortion of what God had in mind, a distortion so severe as to fatally obscure God's revelation for man. But I suppose you know better ...

26 posted on 09/01/2006 8:45:55 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: xzins
Actually, the Great Tribulation that came upon the generation Jesus spoke to, the Jewish War, ratified His prophetic warnings to those who heard Him, and His status as Messiah.
27 posted on 09/01/2006 8:50:14 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: xzins

Continue to be Jewish.


28 posted on 09/01/2006 8:52:02 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; TomSmedley
In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c.

If you hadn't noticed, this is similar to the approach to interpreting the Bible that got another famous datesetter, Harold Camping, in trouble. See his book 1994?.

29 posted on 09/01/2006 8:59:38 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
If you hadn't noticed, this is similar to the approach to interpreting the Bible that got another famous datesetter, Harold Camping, in trouble. See his book 1994?.

Edgar Wisenaunt, author of the famous 88 reasons and its 1989 sequel at least had the excuse of being a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. The callousness with which Hal Lindsey discards his wives, however, should be a clamorous alarm bell to anyone tempted to regard him as a credible Christian, let alone teacher.

30 posted on 09/01/2006 9:05:17 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: xzins; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; Buggman
What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

Do? Do? By the Grace of Perseverance unto the Saints, continue to be a Member of God's Israel, that's what I intend to "DO".

The very Question is Absurd. According to the Scriptures... once I have accepted Christ, I am "a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29), a Member of "the Circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "a Child and Seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), a Citizen of the "Jerusalem which is above" and one of the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29); and, in fact, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).

And one thing that I do NOT intend to "DO", as a Member of "The Israel of God", is preach the Un-Christian Heresy of Thomas Ice, who falsely declares (against all Scripture and Tradition, throughout the History of the Christian Church everywhere):

That is Utter HERESY, pure and simple; as bad or indeed worse than the most extreme "Salvation = Faith + Belief in Calvinism" error of even the most Hardshell Hyper-Calvinist there ever was.

"What one believes about the future of Israel (by which the heretic Ice means the ethnic future of racial Jews) is of the GREATEST AND HIGHEST importance to one's understanding of the Bible"... OH, REALLY?!

More important that the Doctrine of the Trinity? More important than the Doctrine of Creationism? More important than the Doctrine of Substitutionary Salvation, itself? And are we now the understand that the Reformational Doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture is conditional upon one's obeisance to Thomas Ice's heretical Racialist dogma of Dispensationalism??

The Dispensationalist defenders of the Heretic Thomas Ice may quickly scramble and say, oh no, of course he didn't really mean that, maybe a bit hyperbolic, perhaps just a slight exaggeration on his part... surely you don't dare to hold a leading Dispensationalist Theologian to account for what he actually said, do you?!

Of course I dare. Where his treasure is, there is his heart; and out of the abundance of his heart, his heresy speaketh.

Proving the Heresy of Dispensationalism is simple.
You just let leading Dispensationalist Theologians talk.

Best, OP

31 posted on 09/01/2006 9:06:01 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: TomSmedley
#31. Ping.

Mea Culpa for the oversight.

32 posted on 09/01/2006 9:10:06 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: xzins
I'm wondering what you make of one Arminian/Wesleyan author's view of dispensationalism.
False prophets attempting to predict the outcome of both world wars hurt dispensationalism's credibility. they were always confident that Bible prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes, but the subsequent events always forced them to continually re-evaluate what was being fulfilled. Bible scholars had either grown silent or abandoned the viewpoint after the mid 1960s. Then there was a revival of interest when Hal Lindsey published the best selling book of the 1970s: The Late Great Planet Earth. In it Lindsey declared that "no self-respecting scholar who looks at world conditions and the accelerating decline of Christian influence today is a post-millennialist." Lindsey wold have saved himself much embarrassment if he had interpreted world conditions in light of Scripture, instead of trying to read into Scripture his understanding of current events. Lindsey helped bury dispensationalism with his unfulfilled predictions and there were plenty of post-millennialists around to attend the funeral!

...

Although the Church was supposed to be in ruins, it experienced the greatest revival since Pentecost during the end of the 20th century. Peter Wagner declared, "We are in the springtime of missions." In 1900 the ratio of non-Christians to Christians worldwide was 27:1. In 1989 that same ratio was 7:1. Although there were repeated attempts to connect the year 2000 with something cataclysmic, "wolf" had been cried too many times. Nothing could revive the old theory and it passed away leaving a host of red-faced prophecy expects and a huge surplus of obsolete books and charts.

The Obituary of Dispensationalism: 1830-1988 by Vic Reasoner


33 posted on 09/01/2006 9:16:07 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; xzins; Quix; Buggman; blue-duncan
How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant"...

Probably for as long as you Antidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists continue to claim that AD70 is eschatologically significant.

34 posted on 09/01/2006 9:21:57 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

I'm feeling a little left out. ;-)


36 posted on 09/01/2006 9:25:46 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: TomSmedley
Lindsey recycles books and wives as each ages out. I don't know how many times he's re-written his 70's stuff, changing the casts while leaving the plotlines. I have read that he's on marriage number four.

And how many who post against him are on marriage number two or more?

37 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:13 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe

Probably for as long as you Antidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists continue to claim that AD70 is eschatologically significant.
= = = =

I think you are entirely right about the

ContrarianAntidispensationalreconstructionalreplacementarianists!


38 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:31 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: P-Marlowe

Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish.
= = = =

Reads like a very objective, brief description of accurate historical facts, to me.


39 posted on 09/01/2006 9:29:29 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

Absolutely true. But persecution of the Jews is no more a part of supercessionism than it is of dispensationalism.

As regards the history of Jewish persecution in the Middle Ages, let's not pretend that was theological. It was wholly political and economic. Thus, Mr. Ice is disingenuous to blame a Christian theology for those atrocities.

40 posted on 09/01/2006 9:29:56 AM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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