"So, cutting to the chase, you avoid "double baptism" either by claiming that nobody can baptise except the Orthodox, or by not baptising converts from the Catholic Church or from Protestant denominations that you recognise as having an (O|o)rthodox view of baptism."
We absolutely teach that there are no Mysteries outside the Church. That said there is a difference of opinion within Orthodoxy as to just where that line is drawn. No Orthodox Church has said that the RCC's sacraments have grace. A few have said firmly they do not. Most look at the situation and say "We don't know for sure."
(IMO) Based on my reading of the fathers and the canons of the early Church the RCC probably has retained at least on some level the grace of The Church. But I have read powerful arguments on both sides of that issue.
posted on 09/11/2006 1:10:50 PM PDT
by Calvin Coollidge
(The last really great president.)
To: Calvin Coollidge
Our Metropolitan decided that lacking any concrete evidence that she had been baptized, we needed to baptize her and if we were wrong, he was quite sure God "will understand".
Really? If you really believe that, then you should be Baptising, Ordaining, Marrying, etc. any and every convert from whatever background. Elsewise, your words say "Nope: no Grace there!" but your actions say "well, yes maybe there's Grace there after all ..."
RCC probably has retained at least on some level the grace of The Church.
< Sigh > So close, and yet so very far away. What was that about miracles?
Oh, yes: Pray for them. Unceasingly and unsparingly.
Eternal Father, please heal your Church of all schism, error, pride, and mutual misunderstanding. Grant that we may be again One Church. We ask this through your Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
posted on 09/11/2006 1:28:36 PM PDT
(Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
To: Calvin Coollidge
No Orthodox Church has said that the RCC's sacraments have grace.
I think you're wrong there. I believe the Moscow Patriarchate has said they do, and I think the EP has probably said something very similar.
posted on 09/11/2006 1:47:50 PM PDT
("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
To: Calvin Coollidge; ArrogantBustard; Kolokotronis
That said there is a difference of opinion within Orthodoxy
Here is another example of "consensus". What does the Church teach? Which one Patriarch has the final say?
posted on 09/11/2006 1:58:39 PM PDT
("That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah." Hillel)
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