Posted on 09/10/2006 9:16:53 PM PDT by boromeo
Unless they want to rule the world. Speaking of which, the article at the head of this thread states that Masonry is part of something bigger than what the average Mason is aware. If so, why then is it taking us so long to achieve whatever it is we are to achieve?
Bump
Dear Brad C.,
"'She is, after all, in Her own understanding, the Body of Christ.'"
I said this in this way to make it so that you wouldn't need to challenge this fact.
"I think this is the rub here. She may have an understanding of what she thinks she is, but that does not make it the truth to others outside the church."
Yet you challenged it anyway.
Sorry. I'm a Catholic. I accept fully and completely the infallible, irreformable teachings of my Church. The Holy Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. There isn't much basis for discussion once you challenge this basic fact of Christian truth.
"We can all do so much working together, rather than fighting against ourselves. Which, I believe, is the reason that discussions of religion and politics are prohibited inside lodge rooms."
I'm not fighting against myself or anyone whom I would count as part of "ourselves." ;-)
I'm not even fighting against Masons, whom I do not recognize as being part of "ourselves" at least when I'm also a part of "ourselves."
I've just been pointing out the valid reasons why Catholics cannot be Masons.
sitetest
If you'd followed the link, you would have seen that it is the official publication of the Grand Lodge of California.
Go out to any Grand Lodge website and see if it is any different. I don't know what you're defending, but there is a whole lot of information from official Masonic sources that contradict your statements.
There are suppositions and premises which I do not believe in, and it kinda irks me that I had to read through publications that have absolutely convinced me here on this site and not had realized it before.
Working together with men of other faiths is not the point; assuming a deist framework utilizing the Christian Bible and twisting the meaning of many portions of it, is.
The fact is and the fact remains that in large part the schism between Masonry and the Catholic church stems in large part to the fact that Masons figured very prominently in the Protestant Reformation.
" I don't know what you're defending, but there is a whole lot of information from official Masonic sources that contradict your statements."
OK, which statements?
OK, went to your link and read:
"No Lodge can interfere in the business of another Lodge, nor give Degrees to Brethren who are members of other Lodges. This Landmark is founded on the great principles of courtesy and fraternal kindness, which are at the very foundation of our Institution."
Basically, I don't care what masons in Saudi Arabia do. If they come to my lodge, they book of the Law would be the King James Bible.
And my further point that, freemasonry would mean little to non-Jews or non-Christians remains. Anyone who knows anything about masonry would agree.
If you read the article carefully, it claims that Freemasons hace claimed popes as memebers, not that they necessarily were. I would like to see which popes Freemasons claim were members. Obviously, just because they claim it, doesn't mean it is so.
"The Holy Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. There isn't much basis for discussion once you challenge this basic fact of Christian truth. "
To be a nit, that's a "basic fact of Roman Catholic truth."
Me, I follow what St. Paul expressly says about who is a Christians and how ALL Christians are part of the UNIVERSAL (the meaning of "catholic") body of Christ.
Did you read the article? It clearly stated that just because freemasonry had ideas contradictory to Catholicism, it didn't mean that most Freemasons felt that way, etc.
Dear MeanWestTexan,
I reject the misappellation as applied to the Holy Catholic Church, but I understand from where such erroneous beliefs come.
;-)
sitetest
"So, your ceremonials make no mention of God, and draw no moral lessons?"
Tell me, do you think the Boy Scouts is a religion?
It requires an oath to GOD! The teaching of Boy Scouts draws moral lessons! THE HORROR!
The masons are like the Boy Scouts, but for grown ups.
Dear MeanWestTexan,
"Tell me, do you think the Boy Scouts is a religion?"
I don't know. I was never a Boy Scout. ;-)
However, I've never asserted that Masonry IS a religion, only that its ceremonials have religious and moral content. And that the expression of that religious and moral content is done in a way not to give offense to anyone of any particular religious confession. The Church believes that this content is communicated primarily through aspects of natural revelation.
From my own reading, although the York rite (I think I'm getting that right - pun unintended) uses Christian imagery, I think it's a fair statement.
I'll invite MarkBsnr, someone who has been a Mason, to comment further.
In the meanwhile, when I've spoken with my favorite Mason about this topic, he doesn't deny that the moral lessons given by Masonry rest on natural revelation rather than Divine revelation. That's one of the strengths of the organization, in his mind, as it emphasizes what is universally held by all believers in the Deity, while ignoring the particular beliefs of different groups of believers that separate one from another.
sitetest
". . . the meanwhile, when I've spoken with my favorite Mason about this topic, he doesn't deny that the moral lessons given by Masonry rest on natural revelation rather than Divine revelation . . ."
I suspect that is a Scottish Rite group, but I don't know.
Really, all the moral lessons I know of center around the building of King Soloman's temple, the flight from Egypt, etc.
Heck, even the current pope recognizes us mere protestants as Christians, just "imperfect" members of the body of Christ.
Indeed. I won't argue whether Lepanto or Vienna was the more important victory over the Turkish expansion, but they were both absolutely crucial.
Also, perhaps, Ivan the Terrible's conquests of the Mongols. Ivan was not, to say the least, an admirable or saintly man, but he accomplished one crucial job, at least.
Dear MeanWestTexan,
"Heck, even the current pope recognizes us mere protestants as Christians, just 'imperfect' members of the body of Christ."
It's a bit trickier than that. However, one may meditate on this: There is only one baptism. Baptism is a sacrament of the Church. The CATHOLIC Church. If one is validly baptized, for at least some very short period of time, one is, in some sense, a Catholic. One may quickly move to other categories, including schismatic, heretic, and apostate, but one still has the mark of Catholic baptism on one's soul.
That is why we "receive" non-Catholics into the Church, but baptize non-Christians into the Church.
sitetest
The prayers to Lucifer (literally, "bearer of light," but also the Roman name for Venus) do not freak me out.
That they are prayed to a golden calf does.
That is not an accusation from some wild-eyed conspiracist's book; it is on display at the National Masonic Monument, in Alexandria, VA.
Incidentally, I used to think it was neat that the original plan for the DC monuments was to form a cross, with the Capital, White House, Lincoln Monument and Jefferson Memorial forming the endpoints, and the Washington Monument at the center.
When I learned the Latin tradition was to make churches with the head facing East (towards Jerusalem and the rising Sun), I realized that the mall would've formed an inverted cross (facing west). Also, the Washington Monument forms stake located not at the center of the cross, but off-center, just like the heart.
The Capital Dome is a shape formerly used for churches, not capitals, and is eerily similar to St. Peter's Basilica. Like St. Peter's, there is a huge obelisque (the Washington Monument) in front of the Capital. Also, like St. Peter's, there is now a stone circle in front of the Dome. (In the case of St. Peter's, the stones encircle the obelisque; in the case of the National Mall, the stones are just to the West.)
Consider this Google pictures:
The Vatican:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=41.902533,12.456136&spn=0.006085,0.012982&t=k&om=1
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.