California bishop responds to lay group (re Tridentine Mass)

Renew America ^ | September 14, 2006 | Matt C. Abbott

[Kolokotronis]

"It is also because it takes place with other changes that would communicate a lessened belief in the Real Presence: Communion in the hand, illegal use of extraordinary ministers of Communion, removal of altar rails and the distinction between the sanctuary and the nave, removal of the tabernacle from the sanctuary (and even from the body of the church itself), etc."

Communion in the hands, eucharistic ministers and removing the distinction between the nave and the altar are things I can't understand, though I am aware that in the very early Church people reserved the Holy Sacrament themselves and "self-communed" at home during the week. I can't imagine the purpose of the other changes.

[vincentjay]

"Since you are so happy in your generic Christian faith, why don't you go be happy and leave Catholic matters to Catholics to hash out?"

Perhaps you're not aware of the nature of the Free Republic: This is a board for open, public discussion, open to all. If you want this to be a private discussion, do it on a private board.

[Petrosius]

We cannot look only to the practices of the early church. Gestures take on meaning within cultural and historical contexts. E.g., while in the West men remove their hats in church as a sign of respect, in traditional Chinese culture this was a sign of great disrespect. Thus in the Chinese rites the priest was given permission to wear his biretta throughout the Mass. Similarly, while standing for Communion was a sign of respect in the early church, after the Reformation it took on a new meaning. As for the purpose of the other changes, there is a consistent pattern that clearly indicates the intention of the liturgical reformers, even if they should deny it and claim other reasons.

[FJ290]

Perhaps you're not aware of the nature of the Free Republic: This is a board for open, public discussion, open to all. If you want this to be a private discussion, do it on a private board.

I'm aware of it and my comments still stand.

[Deo volente]

I find it strange that Fr. Tran even used the term "mortal sin" to condemn those who wished to kneel. I wonder how often he has used this term during his priesthood, because it's almost unheard of today.

In my opinion, he did this to intimidate those traditional Catholics at St. Mary's who would know its meaning.

[vincentjay]

"First, the Roman Catholic Church is not a 'denomination.'"

Even your teaching "authorities" acknowledge that there are non-catholic Christians, thus roman catholicism does not encompass the entire church. As a subset of the church (a very large subset) it is a denomination (a very large denomination). The church as a whole body of believers encompasses more than roman catholicism.

[vincentjay]

"It's amusing that you think that 'hair splitting' only goes on in the Catholic Church."

You're using what's known as a straw-man arguement. You're rebutting something which I never wrote.

Yes, many non-romans split hairs, but only the roman catholic denominaton claims to be "one" despite the evidence that they are not "one." Pointing out the hairsplitting highlights the weakness of the rcd claim to being unified.

[dsc]

I urge everyone who deplores this letter to write to this bishop and blast him, not eschewing terms like "heresy" and "smoke of Satan."

I urge everyone who agrees with this letter to shut the hell up, you heretic morons.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

I find it strange that Fr. Tran even used the term "mortal sin" to condemn those who wished to kneel. I wonder how often he has used this term during his priesthood, because it's almost unheard of today. In my opinion, he did this to intimidate those traditional Catholics at St. Mary's who would know its meaning. 45 posted on 09/15/2006 1:51:08 PM EDT by Deo volente

That someone that confused in moral theology is wandering around as a priest admonishing people about kneeling, while not surprising, is problematic.

[trisham]

Reading all of these hair-splitting replies amuses me and makes me glad that I escaped the roman catholic denomination many years ago. I find it's much more satisfying to be a generic Christian with only Jesus as my master.

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Welcome to Free Republic. Our purpose is to entertain you. I'm sure I am not to only one here who feels a sense of satisfaction in a job well done.

[trisham]

Knelling for Communion in the West developed as a result of greater devotion to the Eucharistic presence of our Lord. During the Reformation the Protestants returned to receiving while standing to show there rejection of the Catholic teaching on transubstantiation and to deny a distinction between the ordained clergy and the laity. It is within this historical context that Catholics react against standing for Communion.

************

I'd not heard this before. Interesting.

[BlackElk]

May the Diocese of Orange get an actually Catholic bishop next time and ASAP!

[wideawake]

I find it's much more satisfying to be a generic Christian with only Jesus as my master.

Your master is actually your own whim, which you have now trained yourself to believe is Jesus.

Jesus said that He founded a Church, He never said He founded a generic nickname for unserious people.

[BlackElk]

I suspect that you are not as familiar with Bishop Tod Brown as many Catholics have regrettably become familiar with him.

Only five years and two months until he must turn in his resignation at 75! But it IS five years and two months! Yeah, but with any luck it could be sooner!!!!

[BlackElk]

As you have previously posted, you are no longer Catholic. Why on earth are the worship practices of those who are Catholic any of your non-Catholic business?????

[trisham]

Jesus said that He founded a Church, He never said He founded a generic nickname for unserious people.

*************

LOL! Agreed.

[BlackElk]

There is much to admire in the pointed and lean nature of your eloquent post.

[cosine]

How do you know what he wants you to do?

Catholics do a lot of hairsplitting because individuals tend to rationalize,and a pure reliance on scripture (in whatever translation one chooses) leaves a lot of room in which to do it.

[Convert from ECUSA]

Amen, ain't that the truth!

[nickcarraway]

When I go to the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church in my town, I stand, because that's the appropriate posture. But not not at the Latin rite parishes.