Posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:32 AM PDT by Buggman
I would love to see their scriptural proof for this display of false doctrine.
How could he be speaking about Jesus accurately if Priscilla and Aquila had to take him aside privately?
Who was he worshipping of he only knew the baptism of John?
Are we reading the same texts?
The point being, of course, that what was decribed here was not Christian worship, but the worship of apostate Jews to whom folks like Paul, and Aquila and Priscilla, and Apollos reasoned with about the Christ. They didn't go into the synagogue to worship. They went in to preach Christ to the unbelieving Jews.
I realize your presuppositions are preventing you from seeing these facts in the text, but they are there.
If you wish to keep worshipping by the shadows of the older, decayed covenant, that's fine by me. The church has always had its quirky sects.
So then you admit you know nothing of the historical Christian arguments from Scripture given over the last 2 millennia?
Nice try. The bottom line is that there was no such thing as Christians throwing out the sabbath and worshipping/revering a different day. If so, this would have been the prime time for God to reveal it through scripture.
Here we have non-jews, gentiles, being converted by the preaching of Paul. When they ask to be preached to the next sabbath, does Paul say "Ummm...you're not Jews. Us Christians worship on the first day of the week." Nope. Paul preaches to gentiles, non-jews, on the sabbath BECAUSE that IS the commanded day of assembly by the almighty eternal God. It IS a commandment of God. It's ludicrous to think that Paul or anyone else would just toss out a commandment of God that was part of history, culture, and tradition without so much as a whimper of protest from anyone.
I have to wonder why any Christian would deliberately disobey a commandment of the living God and instead embrace a non-biblical tradition:
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
No, I do not admit that. I would like to see the scriptures.....or Papal Bull that the Magisterium has used to pull the wool over the eyes of the people. The exact scripture they used must have been twisted so far out of shape to be barely recognizable. The Papal Bull.....well.....I suppose it was a Papal Bull.
The Sabbath is spoken of 126 times in the Old Testament, 62 times in the New. The first day of the week is mentioned eight times in scripture....not once in a sacred manner. The first day of the week is now the Catholic Sabbath. Go figure!
The Papacy had indeed fulfilled Daniel 7:25.
Lol. I'm sure its more settling for you to assume this. Yet if I could, as you do, see him in the Torah. (seeing him in the oldest Jewish traditions is your leap of faith) why would I have abandoned belief in his deity? Oh ya thats right if I'm not blinded and deaf there must be something sinister afloat. There's an attitude that's brand new. /sarcasm. You may parade around these thread in front of Protestants and Catholics wearing your Kepha but your attitude toward Jews is in reality not much different at all.
Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Jesus did do away with worshipping in one set location. Nobody is arguing that. But you added "one set day".
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Location. Location. Location. And note, "in truth". God is truth. God's commandments, including the 4th, is truth.
Seems to me our Lord and Paul is saying that our worship is our service. There is no need for tabernacles, synogues, etc. Paul apparently was teaching people to worship contrary to what the Law which tells me he was not following the Jewish traditions.
Act 18:12-13 But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat, saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law."
Paul was ACCUSED of teaching contrary to the law...and if he did then it was the manmade laws, the non-scriptural laws and customs that evolved around judaism. But did Paul violate scripture? Let him speak in his own defense:
Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Paul believed ALL things in the law and prophets. The 4th commandment, the sabbath commandment IS written in the law and prophets. God, through the mouth of Paul, in holy scripture, is saying that he believes the sabbath of God. Why don't you?
This doesn't negate believers from coming together, and while worship is a part of coming together it is not the purpose. The purpose of believers coming together is for their edification and to partake of the Lord's Supper:
Paul said:
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
NOT forsaking assembling together. When do you suppose, in the bible, that God specifically commands that we assemble together for worship? When are we not supposed to forsake?
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
The author of Hebrews, thought to be Paul, who believes all the law and prophets,is specifically telling the followers of Jesus Christ NOT to forsake ASSEMBLING together. The only time they were ever commanded by God to assemble together was on God's holy days, including the weekly sabbath. That's what he is instructing them, and us, not to forsake.
Worshipping every day is noble and I personally think we all do this when we say our prayers and such. I heard that John Ascroft had prayer meetings before work when he as AG. We should all be so fortunate as to have a place of work so friendly to worship of God. Those of us who keep the Sabbath in accordance with the scriptures worship God as often as we can as well. However, the volumes of information provided us in the scriptures indicate that God does indeed want everyone to keep His Commandments.
snip
I like to save the red color for the words of Christ.
1Sa 15:22-23 Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."
To obey what? God, men, or our own convictions?
Epistle of Barnabas, XV, 8-9
The present sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but that which I have made, in which I will give rest to all things and make the beginning of an eighth day, that is the beginning of another world. Wherefore we also celebrate with gladness the eighth day.
TC, I have posted this one to you before, yet you persist. This shows with absolute clarity that the ECF were keeping the Sabbath. It also shows, for the benefit of our Catholic friends, that at least this guy believed that he had the power to change stuff. Readers, please pay careful attention, as the author says the present Sabbaths - plura. They were keeping the holy days as well. Also pay close attention that he writes that the Sabbaths were unacceptable to him, it mentions nothing of scripture or God's will.
There is much debate as to whether this author is referencing the 8th day as being the 8th millenia after the 1000 years or if he is referencing the 8th day of the Hellenists, which as you may know, was Sunday - the venerable day of the sun, not the venerable day of the Son.
You are delirious. It shows no such thing. The contrast in Barnabas is between the practices of the apostate Jews ("Your present sabbaths") and the practice of the church ("we also celebrate").
If you actually read the entire argument from Barnabas you would see this.
Further, He says to them [the Jews], “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your [the Jews] present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we [the church] keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead.. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.Barnabas was the earliest of the extra-biblical church fathers who wrote on this subject. It is clear that by his time that the church had established worship on the first day on apostolic authority, as opposed to the apostate Jews who continued to worship on the last day.
What is you source for this document and did you insert the stuff in the [brackets]? At any rate, the author still confessed "not acceptable to me" and "that which I have made". It is clear that his argument is from the position of himself and NOT from the position of "Thus saith the LORD".
You're still grasping , and prove again that you do not understand these passages.
Let's look at another to see the extent of your error:
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, ... When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.Note the progression. Paul goes to Ephesus and finds some disciples (not in the synagogue). He preaches the fullness of the gospel to them and they are baptized (again, not in the synagogue). Then he enters into the synagogue to reason with the apostate Jews. After they refuse to listen to the gospel, he leaves and continues his ministry among the believing Jews and gentiles in "school of Tyrannus". The apostate Jews are left in their synagogue to continue to worship according to old covenant shadows.And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. (Acts 19:1,2,5-10)
Again, more proof that synagogue worship is not the worship of Paul and the other disciples.
If you actually read the source document, and not just some Seventh-Day Adventist pull-quote, you would have seen that the context was an exegesis of Old Testament passages indicating the supercession of the Sabbath. He explicitly was referencing Divine quotations.
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a pure heart.
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then I will bestow My mercy upon them.
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray.
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.-- Epistle of Barnabas, XV.i-xv (Lightfoot translation).
The Church very early on had all-but-ceased engaging in Sabbatarian worship. Such is the invertible conclusion of any fair-minded historian.
Read it for yourself to see if you can come to a different interpretation.
Sunday morning AMEN, Jude.
You inserted the stuff in the brackets.
From the link: Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead.1670
This plainly says they kept both the Sabbath and their 8th day. If only they had a whole Bible like we do today...
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