You challenged me on this thread, and on this thread we'll continue it. If you would like me on another thread, I'll be glad to post all the posts I've made so far on this one.
I can't reconcile the impression you, probably the church as the source, put on scripture. Do you know scripture pretty well beyond what the church bears down on?
Show me, in the scripture you posted, where is there any indication that Paul is referring to a all powerful central church. This passage of scripture is a fragment of Paul's advice on how to handle a fellow believer's sin and transgression. Note that Paul says go first to the trespasser yourself, then bring two to help you and then ask help of the fellows of the local church of believers.
The bound and loose reference in this case obviously refers to the transgressor. This is the old spiritual law we've seen before. Cast bread on the water and it''ll return sevenfold, kill with the sword and be killed with the sword, and other ways of saying I don't call to mind right now.
You'll be called to account for your words, and deeds, each one, a record of which will be remembered in the judgment of your soul. The Eastern religions refer to it as "karma", used with reincarnation, but the same principle.
Notice that Paul is talking about a behavior of general Christian believers who have a quarrel, the word "you" refers to generally to those same people should they transgress.
This is consistent with the rest of the Gospels, and Paul, which and whom taught to individual people the way, performed entirely by the individual, capable of being done only by an individual, to salvation.
Only by ignoring the rest of the Gospels, Acts and letters can you impress such an interpretation on this fragment of scripture.
As I mentioned in a post some while back, the way the Catholic church looks on the scriptures is consistent with it's importance, the scriptures seen as the foundation for a corporate rule.
From the words and the clear meaning of the scriptures, the authority of spiritual salvation, the worthiness of one's soul for salvation, the presence of one's name in the Book, the rewards for faith and belief, the location of the Kingdom, is assigned to each individual for himself. None can do it for you; only you.
That it is a nature of human beings to do this in groups, called churches, magnifying the "two or more" promise by Christ, satisfying our gregariousness, and learning from the testimony of others, is quite beside the point.
Any such organization is created by the people, given power by the people choosing at each moment to submit to the organization's agreed upon guidelines and behavior commanded by scripture itself, exist only as long as there are people belonging to it at their election.
No such human organization creates itself, and God certainly did not create it, only the need of people to worship together, God being present if He is called by the hearts of individuals thereof by their own choice. And, if a government, by the leaders, at their choice.
This is the way God's works, from my observation and reading. He knows each sparrow, and each hair on each head. He is available to each individual in prayer, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, and He allows salvation to come to the each individual.
No gatekeeper church that I can see. of course, the Catholic church, via you, see it differently. It has much to lose in wealth and power, for its power is the people who believe in it.
in the scripture you posted, where is there any indication that Paul is referring to a all powerful central church You mean St. Matthew, Chapter 18.
The passage simply says that the decision of the Church is binding on the disputants on earth and in heaven. This is the literal meaning.
Now it is fair to ask, is the reference to the local church or to the universal Church? The answer is, obviously, both. The disputants naturally have to address the dispute in some local venue, so it is local. But the decision that local church makes is binding in Heaven. Now, unless you are going to argue that there is a separate Heaven for every disputant, we have to conclude from this passage alone that the decision of the local church is uniform to every local church, and that means powerful central Church present as the background for the decision.
There is other scripture that indicates that the Church has hierachical structure:
if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 17 For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord; who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus; as I teach every where in every church. 18 As if I would not come to you, so some are puffed up. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will: and will know, not the speech of them that are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power. 21 What will you? shall I come to you with a rod; or in charity, and in the spirit of meekness? (1 Cor 4)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body
[...]
26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
(1 Cor 12)
Any such organization is created by the people, given power by the people choosing at each moment to submit to the organization's agreed upon guidelines and behavior commanded by scripture itself, exist only as long as there are people belonging to it at their election.
This is scripturally incorrect. The authority of the Church comes from Christ, not form the assembly of believers:
I will build my church (Matthew 16:18)
1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.
(1 Cor 4)
I'd like to focus on the scripture and the question of Church authority, but if you need to discuss my personality, or what other scripture I know, let's do it later. I can generally say that as a Catholic I do not make the distinction between Church and scripture as scripture is a product of the Church (
On Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition).