The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn

The Berean Beacon ^ | John W. Robbins

[Kolokotronis]

"However, I understand that he speaks Greek, so he's not a heretic."

Well, I'm glad we've got that clear.

[ducdriver]

"their noisy rejection of Christianity and conversion to Roman Catholicism"

That's about as far as I could go without wasting time. I've read Scott Hahn and respect his intellect. Also Peter Kreeft. To say Hahn rejects Christianity is foolish.

[Mad Dawg]

And you're still not offering any Scripture.

That's because I still haven't been shown why I should.

But that you may know that the Son of Robert hath power on earth to trot out the occasional text or two ...

... meta phobou kai tromou ten heauton soterian katerqazethe Theos gar estin ho energon en humin kai to thelain kai to energein hyper tes eudokias.

And

Ou pas ho legon moi, Kyrie, Kyrie,eiseleusetai eis ten basileian ton ouranon, all' ho poion to thelema tou patros mou tou en tois ouranois.

And

Horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon. [stress added by Mad Dawg]

(Sorry for typos -- just write them off to my illiteracy.) I personally would not presume to say what these words might add to the conversation. The older I get, the less I know.

But I'm pretty confident that since this conversation has been going on, one way or another, for several hundred years we prob ably won't get it resolved in the next few posts.

And as long as either side persists in the kind of rhetoric in which the writer of this article indulges himself, it sure isn't going to happen soon.

I hope my Biblical illiteracy doesn't get in the way too much. I'm done with this nonsense.

[Mad Dawg]

OutSTANDing! That is a great chunk to memorize. I'm impressed. Of course, it's too bad you have no idea what it means .....
/irony off

(But, pssst! You gave it away, It's WAY more fun when the Biblically wise people who know all about how the Bible says that works are nothing give their explanations of "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.") I was just thinking today what a lovely epistle Phillipians is .... (If only I'd read it, but, being illiterate, of course I can't, or haven't, or whatever it is I'm being accused of)

[Mad Dawg]

Aren't the Ten Commandments the law?

Where I live, Sheriff Ed Robb is the law.

[InterestedQuestioner]

Hi Kolokotronis,


Thank you for your thoughtful post. You've introduced me to several new concepts here and in the past, and I'll need to do some research in order to understand what you've written. I don't understand what is meant by "Uncreated energies," "Theosis" and even ontology, and I appreciate your introducing me to these.

I would still hold, nonetheless, that St. Mary would not have belonged to non-human class of being if were she were born without the sin of Adam, for the reason that it would mean that she was born into the same state as Adam and Eve. She would still have been human in such a state, and she would, like Adam, have been subject to temptation. It seems there's agreement that she was freed from the sin of Adam, it's simply a question of whether she was conceived that way, or made that way at the Annunciation or earlier. Finally, I'm not sure what the difference is between being born without the sin of Adam and being Baptized. Is this something that should be glaringly obvious to me?

"The Church, of course, in conformity with the consensus patrum, says she was always sinless because despite her humanity, allowed her an option no one else had, which was to choose not to miss the mark."

So at some point she was given an extraordinary grace that permitted her not to sin. It seems to me that this extraordinary Grace would have to have been given to her prior to her becoming capable of sin. This would have preceded the Annunciation.

"But here it is important to know that the Eastern concept of sin is different from that in the West. In Greek the word for sin is pronounced "amartia" and means "missing the mark". The mark is Christ. Thus sin is when we are not conforming ourselves to the "likeness of Christ", preferring ourselves and refusing to "die to the self".

Thanks for writing this, Kolo. I've often wondered about how to think of sin, and your explanation is very helpful.

" in +Augustine's world man couldn't not sin. " ..... "I think it is fair to say that the effects of the Sin of Adam were such that no matter how hard we tried, we "sinned".

I'm having a hard time distinguishing these two ideas, at least in a pre-resurrection world.

It's Friday night. According to this article, I think I'm disqualified from writing an autobiography by reasons of age and good health, unless I want to be an egoist, an egomaniac and a megalomaniac. The upside is that I'm not too old to go out on a Friday night and kick up my heals, Your one of the few people who could have kept me here on FR this evening, but it's time for me to be on my merry way. Thanks again for taking the time to write.

-iq

[jude24]

From Youngs LITERAL translation

Young's Literal Translation is not to be trusted. It's "literalism" is too often deceptive.

[RobbyS]

I recall reading that when John Calvin was thirty, his hair was already tinged with gray. That didn't keep him from writing a pretty good book about that time.

[RobbyS]

What. you believe that no one will be living when the Lord comes? Let us just say that Mary was the first to experience the rapture and the first to meet the Lord Jesus in the heavens.

[RobbyS]

I think all one has to do is to open the book. IAC. the day is long past when even fairly devout Protestants have more than a child's knowledge of the Bible. Ask one on the street: in which book do we find the parable of the Good Samaritan.?

[jude24]

The use of the perfect passive participle makes kecharitomene mean "already fully graced as a result of a past action".

Linguistically, you are right. kercharitomene indicates that Mary had, previous to the Annunciation, had some sort of grace which had preserved her up until that point so that she could be the Theokotos.

It cannot be demonstrated that this preserving grace, however, was such that Mary was preserved sinless. It only proves that it preserved her in some sort of state of usability, and that she was a righteous woman.

The inference that she was sinless seems to be to be reasonable, but not "good and necessary."

[jude24]

"Sinners" aren't "full of grace," sorry.

No? From where did Mary's grace come from? Look at Eph. 1:6 ("his glorious grace, which he blessed us in the beloved.") The word there is also echaritosen - the same verb.

Put this way - Mary's preserving grace, while perhaps unique in degree, certainly is from the same source as any Christian's.

[Kolokotronis]

"Finally, I'm not sure what the difference is between being born without the sin of Adam and being Baptized. Is this something that should be glaringly obvious to me?"

Real quick point and if you wish we can take it up tomorrow; think about this:

"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" +Ambrose of Milan

and this from +John Chrysostomos:

"Are we only dying with the Master and are we only sharing in His sadness? Most of all, let me say that sharing the Master's death is no sadness. Only wait a little and you shall see yourself sharing in His benefits. 'For if we have died with Him,' says St. Paul, `we believe that we shall also live together with Him.' For in baptism there are both burial and resurrection together at the same time. He who is baptized puts off the old man, takes the new and rises up, `just as Christ has arisen through the glory of the Father.' Do you see how, again, St. Paul calls baptism a resurrection?"

[jude24]

As an apocalypse-crazed Jesus Freak, I did go through a period of extreme (even demonized) anti-catholicism. Strangely enough, though, as I matured in my faith, and mentally "came of age" as a Calvinist, I found ever more to appreciate in the Roman side of the family.

That's my own story as well. When I was more "fundamentalistic," anything remotely Catholic was suspect. When I studied Calvinism - and, by extension Augustine followed by Aquinas, I gained a greater appreciation for Catholicism, even where my disagreements with Catholic theology are still fairly sharp.

[jude24]

at least one Father, +John Chrysostomos of all people, believed that in fact she did sin both before and after the Annunciation.

Interesting.

[Kolokotronis]

"Linguistically, you are right. kercharitomene indicates that Mary had, previous to the Annunciation, had some sort of grace which had preserved her up until that point so that she could be the Theokotos."

You guys are doing fine on the Greek verb tense...but where do you get the "which had preserved her" part. That's not in the sense of the Greek word and putting it in there could be argued as demonstrating a denial of the free will of the Theotokos and that has truly astonishing implications for the Incarnation and veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos among other things.

[Kolokotronis]

"Interesting."

Yes, but not in the consensus patrum and hence aberrant. It demonstrates that we should be aware that just because a Father says something, that doesn't make it theologically correct or "O(o)rthodox". Its the consensus patrum which states so much of the O(o)rthodox theology of The Church.

[Tax-chick]

I was just thinking today what a lovely epistle Phillipians is ...

I agree. I hope that eventually we'll get the whole letter memorized. That and Colossians are my favorite of St. Paul's letters, although I admit I don't understand what he's getting at sometimes.

Maybe getting the Greek alphabet blocks will help :-).

[Tax-chick]

Luke, Chapter 15.

[jude24]

putting it in there could be argued as demonstrating a denial of the free will of the Theotokos and that has truly astonishing implications for the Incarnation and veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos among other things.

I would agree, if I didn't think that preserving grace and free will were compatible.

I'm basing this on the reasonable inferences that 1. regardless of whether she was sinless or not, Mary's status was by a grace not her own, and 2. Scattered throughout the old Testamnet (e.g. Ps. 73) is the concept of a preserving grace.