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The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn
The Berean Beacon ^ | John W. Robbins

Posted on 11/02/2006 12:44:03 PM PST by Alex Murphy

The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn

By John W. Robbins

Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism. Scott and Kimberly Hahn. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1993. Foreword by Peter Kreeft

What sorts of people write autobiographies when they are healthy and well at 35? Generally there are three sorts: egotists, egomaniacs, and megalomaniacs. There seems to be no other plausible reason for writing the story of one's life when it has barely begun. But the fawning Peter Kreeft, a confused mind who wrote the Foreword for this book, disagrees. According to Kreeft, Scott and Kimberly Hahn are "one of the beautiful and bright-shining stars in the firmament of hope for our desperate days." The Hahns, writes Kreeft shamelessly, "are simply very bright, clear-thinking and irrefutably reasonable... passionately in love with Truth and with honesty. They are incapable of fudging anything except fudge." Kreeft calls the Hahns "stars" for only one reason: their noisy rejection of Christianity and conversion to Roman Catholicism. They have no other "achievement."

I once knew Scott Hahn. I met him about twelve years ago when he was a Presbyterian minister living in the Washington, D.C. area. (I had spoken to Hahn by phone before that: When he was a student at Gordon-Conwell Seminary, I paid him to record the guest lectures of Gordon Clark at the seminary.) Being an administrative assistant to a Member of Congress at the time, I invited Hahn (and others) to speak to a group of Congressional staffers, and he spoke on his favorite topic, "familism," which is his apotheosis of the family. At the time I had no knowledge of Hahn's real theological views; I was naive enough to think that a Presbyterian minister actually believed Presbyterian doctrine, and Hahn dissembled well enough. He fooled me, and a number of other people as well. In a discussion I had with Hahn after his lecture, it became clear that one of Hahn's preoccupations – in addition to his obsession with the notion of family – was eschatology: He was a postmillennialist who had been heavily influenced by the Reconstructionist movement. In fact, he was the (unordained) pastor of a Reconstructionist church in Fairfax, Virginia.

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Romeward Bound

Hahn is one of a few seminary-trained, apparently well-educated Protestant ministers who have joined the Roman Catholic Church over the last few years. The Hahns have gained some notoriety from their speeches and tapes, and now this book, which is based on their speeches, will add to that notoriety. One remark his wife makes in this book suggests that Hahn's desire to be noticed is great: "Scott suffered tremendous loneliness. He was misunderstood and rejected by many Protestant friends who didn't want to talk to him.... He felt that former professors didn't think he was worth pursuing to convince him he was wrong [about Scripture]. And he couldn't understand the nonchalance of a number of [Roman] Catholics at Marquette [University, where Hahn was a student at the time] over his conversion, acting rather hohum over the whole thing, rather than welcoming him for all he had risked and left behind" (109). What good is being a martyr if no one notices you?

Two other men defected to Rome as a result of Hahn's influence: his seminary classmate Gerald Matatics, and Presbyterian Church in America minister William Bales. Other defections, such as that of author Thomas Howard, are apparently unrelated to Hahn's. Why were these men seduced by Rome? The answers to that question are complex. Each man's seduction is probably unique. But there are some features of Hahn's seduction that reveal fatal weaknesses in what passes for contemporary Protestant Christianity. Today Hahn teaches at the Franciscan Seminary of Steubenville (Ohio), a charismatic Roman Catholic institution. His wife, the daughter of a Presbyterian clergyman, is also a graduate of Gordon-Conwell: She wanted to be a pastor, she says.

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Liberalism and Arminianism

The first of the reasons for Hahn's conversion to Romanism is liberalism and Arminianism. Hahn tells us that he was "baptized a Presbyterian" and "raised in a nominal Protestant home. Church and religion played a small role in my life and for my family...." As a teenager, he was a drug-using criminal who lied his way out of jail: "Faced with a yearlong sentence to a detention center for a variety of charges, I barely lied my way out of the sentence and into six months of probation instead" (1). In high school Hahn became active in Young Life, an Arminian evangelistic group. There he read Paul Little and C. S. Lewis. He also had some religious experiences: "Before finishing my sophomore year, I experienced the transforming power of God's grace in conversion. Within the next year, I experienced a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a personal and life-changing way." Apparently Hahn had both a conversion experience and a charismatic experience in high school. In his senior year, he met the Presbyterian John Gerstner, "one of my favorite theologians" (31). While in high school, Hahn also became enamored of Luther and Calvin, apparently because they appealed to his need for heroes: "I decided the figures in Christian history who most appealed to me...were the great protestant reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin" (5). But the theologies of Luther and Calvin seemed to play relatively small parts in Hahn's thinking; he was fascinated by other things. A guitarist, Hahn liked modern music: "The summer before going off to college, I toured the United States, Scotland, England and Holland, playing guitar in a Christian musical group, the Continentals" (13). Hahn attended the theologically liberal but economically conservative Grove City College, a college affiliated with the mainline Presbyterian church, where he concentrated in theology, philosophy, and economics, and continued his activity in Young Life. While in college, Hahn "discovered that the covenant was really the key for unlocking the whole Bible" (17). Beware the man who thinks he has discovered some sort of "key" for understanding the Bible, whether it is the idea of covenant, a scheme of dispensations (instituted by covenants), or a five-point covenantal model.

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Thomism and Evidentialism

The second major factor influencing Hahn's conversion to Rome seems to be the official Roman Catholic philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and evidentialism. While at nominally Protestant Grove City College, Hahn "had become enamored with and steeped in the philosophy of Saint Thomas. In spite of my anti-Catholic outlook, I had known a good thing when I found it, and in my mind, no one could compare to Aquinas.... I had devoured his philosophical writings, especially his metaphysics, eventually acquiring the odd and unlikely reputation for being an ‘evangelical Thomist' " (101).

During his first years in Gordon-Conwell Seminary, 1979-81, Hahn suffered from a confused mental state: "At this point I would describe my study as a detective story. I was searching Scripture to discover clues as to the whereabouts of real Christianity" (25). Although Hahn does not mention it in the book, his tuition at Gordon-Conwell was paid by a Calvinist Christian businessman who wanted to support a student who understood both free market economics and Christian theology, for the purpose of being able to teach economics to clergymen and Christian theology to economists. Hahn was highly recommended to the businessman by the Chairman of the Economics Department at Grove City. What Hahn learned at Grove City was Thomism, and his interest in economics – which he says he studied only to mollify his "practical" father, not because he was genuinely interested in the subject – has disappeared. Hahn's obsession is to convert Christians to Catholicism, not to educate clergymen about principles of economics or economists about Christian theology. He owes one Christian businessman many thousand dollars and his former economics professor an apology.

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Justitication by Works and Norman Shepherd

While he was at Gordon-Conwell being supported by a Calvinist Christian businessman, Hahn adopted the Roman Catholic view of justification: "When Christ formed the New Covenant with us, then, it was much more than a simple contract or legal exchange, where he took our sin and gave us his righteousness, as Luther and Calvin explained it.... In fact, I discovered that nowhere did Saint Paul ever teach that we were justified by faith alone! Sola fide was unscriptural! "I was so excited about this discovery. I shared it with some friends, who were amazed at how much sense it made. Then one friend stopped me and asked if I knew who else was teaching this way on justification. When I responded that I didn't, he told me that Dr. Norman Shepherd, a professor at Westminster Theological Seminary (the strictest Presbyterian Calvinist seminary in America) was about to undergo a heresy trial for teaching the same view of justification that I was expounding. "So I called Professor Shepherd and talked with him. He said he was accused of teaching something contrary to the teachings of Scripture, Luther and Calvin. As I heard him describe what he was teaching, I thought, Hey, that is what I'm saying" (30-31).

As for Kimberly, "At this point [more than halfway through seminary] I was not steeped in Reformation theology, so the change in how I viewed justification did not seem momentous" (42). Please consider the import of that statement. Here are two graduates of a Presbyterian College, two students nearing completion of their studies at reputedly one of the best evangelical Protestant seminaries in the country, two professing Christians – and the meaning of justification is not all that important to them. As we shall soon see, despite – or rather because of – their education, the Hahns – especially Scott – could not defend the Reformation principles of the Bible alone, faith alone, and Christ alone.

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Reconstructionism and Theonomy

The fourth major influence on Hahn's conversion to Romanism was the Reconstructionist movement. After attending seminary, Hahn had intended to study theology at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland, where he had been acc.epted, but he changed his mind because of Margaret Thatcher: "Margaret Thatcher made it almost impossible for Americans to have babies at British taxpayers' expense; so we took this as sign for us to look elsewhere for work, delaying doctoral studies for a while" (32). Not having paid for his own education, Hahn apparently did not intend to pay for his children either. The principles of economics seem to have been quite forgotten.

Instead, Hahn was hired as pastor and schoolteacher by a Reconstructionist church in Fairfax, Virginia: "When I candidated for the position at Trinity Presbyterian Church, I shared my views and concerns regarding justification – that I took Dr. Shepherd's position. They understood and said they did, too. So shortly before graduation, I accepted the pastorate at Trinity, as well as a teaching position in their high school, Fairfax Christian School" (33). The Reconstuctionist church was not fooled: They knew quite well that Hahn had defected from the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith, and they wanted him for that reason.

While pastoring the Reconstructionist church, Hahn "began to see how important liturgy was for the covenant.... Liturgy represented the way God fathered the covenant family..." (43). "My parishioners grew excited. The elders even asked me to revise our liturgy." While teaching his ideas at the school, his Roman Catholicism was so obvious that several of his students told him he would join the Roman Catholic church. (Someone should write a book about Reconstructionist churches and their affinity for Roman Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and doctrine.) Hahn was also invited to teach at Dominion Theological Institute (which later merged with Chesapeake Theological Seminary). During this period he became convinced of the Roman doctrine that Jesus Christ was physically present in the bread and the wine. Thus, when one participates in mass, one is eating the physical body and drinking the physical blood of Christ. The proper name for the practice – if Catholics were actually doing what they dogmatically assert that they are doing – is ritual cannibalism.

Hahn was also teaching his seminary students – contrary to what the seminary itself believed, contrary to what he was being paid to teach, and without informing the leadership of the seminary – that justification by faith alone was false. The fact that he was denying the Christian doctrine of justification while being paid to teach it does not seem to bother him. Oddly, Hahn opens his book with this story designed to illustrate his lifelong honesty: "I recall the last time I ever attended our family's church. The minister was preaching all about his doubts regarding the Virgin Birth of Jesus and his bodily Resurrection. I just stood up in the middle of his sermon and walked out. I remember thinking, I'm not sure what I believe, but at least I'm honest enough not to stand up and attack the things I'm supposed to teach" (1). But that is exactly what Hahn did when he taught seminary classes, and that is exactly what he did when he accepted money for seminary tuition under false pretenses. After Hahn attacked sola fide in his seminary classes in Virginia, one of the students challenged him to defend sola scriptura. He could not (51-52). After seven years in "Protestant" educational institutions, and now a Presbyterian minister, Hahn, who by all accounts was an excellent student, could not defend the major principles of the Protestant Reformation.

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Messages from God and Mary

The Hahns left Virginia and moved back to Grove City, where Scott took a job as assistant to the college president and instructor in theology, of all things. Liberalism, Arminianism, Thomism, evidentialism, and Reconstructionism had persuaded Hahn of the truth of Catholicism, and now Mary clinched the argument: Hahn began feeling that God was "calling me into the [Roman] Catholic Church" (60). Scott and Kimberly got "feelings," "leadings," "nudges," "peace," "impressions," and "callings," – alleged messages from God and his mother, Mary. While teaching theology at Grove City College, Hahn drove down to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh for theology classes. There he was "the only student defending Pope John Paul II!" (66), and there he first became involved with Opus Dei (67). After someone mailed him a Rosary, Hahn decided to perform an experiment by praying to Mary about an "impossible situation." Hahn prayed, and the impossible situation resolved itself within three months. In Hahn's irrational mind, praying the Rosary obviously worked. As a result, Hahn now prays to Mary daily.

That, of course, is how all superstitions begin: committing the logical fallacy post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Leaving Grove City, Hahn decided to continue his studies at Marquette University. While in Milwaukee he learned that his seminary classmate, Gerald Matatics, was going to be absorbed into the Roman Catholic church two weeks later at Easter, 1986. Hahn, who had talked Matatics into Roman Catholicism, could not stand to have him go first, yet Hahn had promised his wife that he would not become a Roman Catholic until 1990. He asked her to pray about releasing him from his promise, and she did so. Hahn and Matatics were both absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church in 1986. Hahn says that he "had fallen head over heels in love with our Lord in the Eucharist!" (88).

Kimberly was jealous of Scott's long walks and talks with Mary. During Christmas 1986 Kimberly, who was pregnant, got a "word from the Lord" concerning her baby (115). When the baby was baptized a Roman Catholic, Kimberly "was astounded at the beauty of the liturgy" (117). Kimberly "came to appreciate that [baby] Hannah had become a child of God through baptism, being born again by water and the Spirit. As I studied baptism, it connected with what I had already done on justification. As with Scott, my study in seminary had led me to reject as unscriptural the Protestant teaching of justification by faith alone" (137). Note well: "As with Scott, my study in seminary had led me to reject as unscriptural the Protestant teaching of justification by faith alone."

When Hahn was confirmed, he chose Francis de Sales as his "patron saint," because "de Sales happened to be the Bishop of Geneva, Switzerland, while John Calvin was leading the people farther away from the Catholic Faith.... [He] was such an effective preacher and apologist that, through his sermons and pamphlets, over forty thousand Calvinists were brought back into the Church" (133).

John Gerstner and Robert Knudsen

Before defecting to Rome, Hahn and Matatics had met with John Gerstner, the evidentialist Presbyterian theologian who was unable to persuade them of the errors of Roman Catholicism. After his conversion, Hahn debated with Robert Knudsen, the Dooyeweerdian and Van Tilian professor of apologetics at Westminster Seminary, about sola fide and sola scriptura. Hahn writes: "I never dreamed of such a positive outcome. Not only did the Westminster Seminary students in attendance express their surprise and excitement at the end," his wife was impressed too. I have listened to that debate on cassette tape, and Apologetics Professor Knudsen's performance is embarrassing and incompetent.

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Meeting the Pope

In January 1992, Dr. Jerry Kirk, Hahn's father-in-law, a Presbyterian minister in Cincinnati, invited Hahn to accompany him to Rome to meet the pope. There he met the "Holy Father" for a few seconds and the next day went to a chapel for mass with the pope. He embraced the pope, giving him a personal letter and a check. "As I left the presence of Pope John Paul II – the one anointed by my heavenly Father and eldest Brother to shepherd the covenant family of God on earth – I had a strong sense that God was saying, ‘Scott, the best is yet to come' " (172). Hahn does not explain this dark, oracular saying: Does it mean that he will be elected the first American pope? Appointed cardinal? Invited to Rome to join the Vatican lowerarchy? Named Grand Inquisitor? We are not told.

The State of Contemporary "Protestantism"

Hahn's defection is one of several similar defections. They are occurring, not because Rome is a true church, but because of the apostasy of "Protestantism." The largest American Protestant denominations are either unbelieving or unknowing, priding themselves on their rejection of Scripture, their vacuous faith, or their limited knowledge. Many smaller denominations and independent churches are in little better condition. They are largely Arminian – which is semi-Romanist already, believing in man's free will; revivalist – which is informed by Roman Catholic experientialism; or charismatic – which continues Rome's theology of miracles and gifts. American "Protestantism" is mostly Roman Catholic already. Some of the more conservative churches have been led astray by Reconstructionism, by religiously cooperative efforts in the anti-abortion movement, by programs of social and political reform. Just when the preaching of the Gospel is most urgently needed, it is rarely heard in "Protestant" pulpits. It is doubtful that most graduates of theological schools could give a clear and accurate summary of the Gospel. The Roman Catholic church is by far the largest ecclesiastical organization in America with about 58 million subjects; it operates tens of thousands of churches, thousands of schools, and hundreds of colleges. Worldwide, it claims more than 950 million subjects. Its loyal American subjects are becoming more and more militant in every area. Hahn's own zeal for the pope is reflected not only in this book, but in the scores of tapes he and his wife have produced and which have been distributed by the hundreds of thousands. Only the grace of God can save us from another Dark Age and the church that Luther recognized as the slaughterhouse of souls.

May God send forth his light and his truth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; anticatholicism; catholic; catholiclist; christianity; conversion; evangelical; protestant; scotthahn
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To: Tax-chick

"However, I understand that he speaks Greek, so he's not a heretic."

Well, I'm glad we've got that clear.


341 posted on 11/03/2006 6:50:28 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Alex Murphy

"their noisy rejection of Christianity and conversion to Roman Catholicism"

That's about as far as I could go without wasting time. I've read Scott Hahn and respect his intellect. Also Peter Kreeft. To say Hahn rejects Christianity is foolish.


342 posted on 11/03/2006 6:55:40 PM PST by ducdriver ("Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance." GKC)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And you're still not offering any Scripture.

That's because I still haven't been shown why I should.

But that you may know that the Son of Robert hath power on earth to trot out the occasional text or two ...

... meta phobou kai tromou ten heauton soterian katerqazethe Theos gar estin ho energon en humin kai to thelain kai to energein hyper tes eudokias.

And

Ou pas ho legon moi, Kyrie, Kyrie,eiseleusetai eis ten basileian ton ouranon, all' ho poion to thelema tou patros mou tou en tois ouranois.

And

Horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon. [stress added by Mad Dawg]

(Sorry for typos -- just write them off to my illiteracy.) I personally would not presume to say what these words might add to the conversation. The older I get, the less I know.

But I'm pretty confident that since this conversation has been going on, one way or another, for several hundred years we prob ably won't get it resolved in the next few posts.

And as long as either side persists in the kind of rhetoric in which the writer of this article indulges himself, it sure isn't going to happen soon.

I hope my Biblical illiteracy doesn't get in the way too much. I'm done with this nonsense.

343 posted on 11/03/2006 7:06:09 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Tax-chick
OutSTANDing! That is a great chunk to memorize. I'm impressed. Of course, it's too bad you have no idea what it means .....
/irony off

(But, pssst! You gave it away, It's WAY more fun when the Biblically wise people who know all about how the Bible says that works are nothing give their explanations of "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.") I was just thinking today what a lovely epistle Phillipians is .... (If only I'd read it, but, being illiterate, of course I can't, or haven't, or whatever it is I'm being accused of)

344 posted on 11/03/2006 7:23:21 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Aren't the Ten Commandments the law?

Where I live, Sheriff Ed Robb is the law.

345 posted on 11/03/2006 7:32:10 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Kolokotronis
Hi Kolokotronis,


Thank you for your thoughtful post. You've introduced me to several new concepts here and in the past, and I'll need to do some research in order to understand what you've written. I don't understand what is meant by "Uncreated energies," "Theosis" and even ontology, and I appreciate your introducing me to these.

I would still hold, nonetheless, that St. Mary would not have belonged to non-human class of being if were she were born without the sin of Adam, for the reason that it would mean that she was born into the same state as Adam and Eve. She would still have been human in such a state, and she would, like Adam, have been subject to temptation. It seems there's agreement that she was freed from the sin of Adam, it's simply a question of whether she was conceived that way, or made that way at the Annunciation or earlier. Finally, I'm not sure what the difference is between being born without the sin of Adam and being Baptized. Is this something that should be glaringly obvious to me?

"The Church, of course, in conformity with the consensus patrum, says she was always sinless because despite her humanity, allowed her an option no one else had, which was to choose not to miss the mark."

So at some point she was given an extraordinary grace that permitted her not to sin. It seems to me that this extraordinary Grace would have to have been given to her prior to her becoming capable of sin. This would have preceded the Annunciation.

"But here it is important to know that the Eastern concept of sin is different from that in the West. In Greek the word for sin is pronounced "amartia" and means "missing the mark". The mark is Christ. Thus sin is when we are not conforming ourselves to the "likeness of Christ", preferring ourselves and refusing to "die to the self".

Thanks for writing this, Kolo. I've often wondered about how to think of sin, and your explanation is very helpful.

" in +Augustine's world man couldn't not sin. " ..... "I think it is fair to say that the effects of the Sin of Adam were such that no matter how hard we tried, we "sinned".

I'm having a hard time distinguishing these two ideas, at least in a pre-resurrection world.

It's Friday night. According to this article, I think I'm disqualified from writing an autobiography by reasons of age and good health, unless I want to be an egoist, an egomaniac and a megalomaniac. The upside is that I'm not too old to go out on a Friday night and kick up my heals, Your one of the few people who could have kept me here on FR this evening, but it's time for me to be on my merry way. Thanks again for taking the time to write.

-iq
346 posted on 11/03/2006 7:36:16 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you and your household will be saved.)
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To: ears_to_hear; Campion
From Youngs LITERAL translation

Young's Literal Translation is not to be trusted. It's "literalism" is too often deceptive.

347 posted on 11/03/2006 7:39:33 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I recall reading that when John Calvin was thirty, his hair was already tinged with gray. That didn't keep him from writing a pretty good book about that time.


348 posted on 11/03/2006 7:44:40 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

What. you believe that no one will be living when the Lord comes? Let us just say that Mary was the first to experience the rapture and the first to meet the Lord Jesus in the heavens.


349 posted on 11/03/2006 7:49:25 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Carolina

I think all one has to do is to open the book. IAC. the day is long past when even fairly devout Protestants have more than a child's knowledge of the Bible. Ask one on the street: in which book do we find the parable of the Good Samaritan.?


350 posted on 11/03/2006 7:52:24 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Campion; ears_to_hear
The use of the perfect passive participle makes kecharitomene mean "already fully graced as a result of a past action".

Linguistically, you are right. kercharitomene indicates that Mary had, previous to the Annunciation, had some sort of grace which had preserved her up until that point so that she could be the Theokotos.

It cannot be demonstrated that this preserving grace, however, was such that Mary was preserved sinless. It only proves that it preserved her in some sort of state of usability, and that she was a righteous woman.

The inference that she was sinless seems to be to be reasonable, but not "good and necessary."

351 posted on 11/03/2006 7:59:04 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Campion; ears_to_hear
"Sinners" aren't "full of grace," sorry.

No? From where did Mary's grace come from? Look at Eph. 1:6 ("his glorious grace, which he blessed us in the beloved.") The word there is also echaritosen - the same verb.

Put this way - Mary's preserving grace, while perhaps unique in degree, certainly is from the same source as any Christian's.

352 posted on 11/03/2006 8:05:20 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: InterestedQuestioner

"Finally, I'm not sure what the difference is between being born without the sin of Adam and being Baptized. Is this something that should be glaringly obvious to me?"

Real quick point and if you wish we can take it up tomorrow; think about this:

"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" +Ambrose of Milan

and this from +John Chrysostomos:

"Are we only dying with the Master and are we only sharing in His sadness? Most of all, let me say that sharing the Master's death is no sadness. Only wait a little and you shall see yourself sharing in His benefits. 'For if we have died with Him,' says St. Paul, `we believe that we shall also live together with Him.' For in baptism there are both burial and resurrection together at the same time. He who is baptized puts off the old man, takes the new and rises up, `just as Christ has arisen through the glory of the Father.' Do you see how, again, St. Paul calls baptism a resurrection?"


353 posted on 11/03/2006 8:23:16 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: TomSmedley
As an apocalypse-crazed Jesus Freak, I did go through a period of extreme (even demonized) anti-catholicism. Strangely enough, though, as I matured in my faith, and mentally "came of age" as a Calvinist, I found ever more to appreciate in the Roman side of the family.

That's my own story as well. When I was more "fundamentalistic," anything remotely Catholic was suspect. When I studied Calvinism - and, by extension Augustine followed by Aquinas, I gained a greater appreciation for Catholicism, even where my disagreements with Catholic theology are still fairly sharp.

354 posted on 11/03/2006 8:25:29 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Kolokotronis
at least one Father, +John Chrysostomos of all people, believed that in fact she did sin both before and after the Annunciation.

Interesting.

355 posted on 11/03/2006 8:29:33 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24

"Linguistically, you are right. kercharitomene indicates that Mary had, previous to the Annunciation, had some sort of grace which had preserved her up until that point so that she could be the Theokotos."

You guys are doing fine on the Greek verb tense...but where do you get the "which had preserved her" part. That's not in the sense of the Greek word and putting it in there could be argued as demonstrating a denial of the free will of the Theotokos and that has truly astonishing implications for the Incarnation and veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos among other things.


356 posted on 11/03/2006 8:40:03 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: jude24

"Interesting."

Yes, but not in the consensus patrum and hence aberrant. It demonstrates that we should be aware that just because a Father says something, that doesn't make it theologically correct or "O(o)rthodox". Its the consensus patrum which states so much of the O(o)rthodox theology of The Church.


357 posted on 11/03/2006 8:43:26 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Mad Dawg
I was just thinking today what a lovely epistle Phillipians is ...

I agree. I hope that eventually we'll get the whole letter memorized. That and Colossians are my favorite of St. Paul's letters, although I admit I don't understand what he's getting at sometimes.

Maybe getting the Greek alphabet blocks will help :-).

358 posted on 11/04/2006 4:03:18 AM PST by Tax-chick ("If we have no fear, Pentecost comes again." ~ Bishop William Curlin)
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To: RobbyS

Luke, Chapter 15.


359 posted on 11/04/2006 4:05:07 AM PST by Tax-chick ("If we have no fear, Pentecost comes again." ~ Bishop William Curlin)
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To: Kolokotronis
putting it in there could be argued as demonstrating a denial of the free will of the Theotokos and that has truly astonishing implications for the Incarnation and veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos among other things.

I would agree, if I didn't think that preserving grace and free will were compatible.

I'm basing this on the reasonable inferences that 1. regardless of whether she was sinless or not, Mary's status was by a grace not her own, and 2. Scattered throughout the old Testamnet (e.g. Ps. 73) is the concept of a preserving grace.

360 posted on 11/04/2006 4:20:15 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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