Posted on 12/01/2006 12:53:15 PM PST by Alex Murphy
A few months ago, my wife and I had the pleasure of meeting some new neighbors for the first time. Young parents in the orthodox Jewish community, they were intrigued to discover these Gentiles -- one South African, the other Czech -- who had chosen to make Jerusalem their home, marrying in Israel's ancient capital, and bringing five children into the world in the heart of this global hot spot.
While the two mothers paired off and visited in Hebrew, I spoke with the young man who probed me for answers, keen to understand our reasons for being here.
I told him that we are believers in the God of Israel; emphasizing that his God is my God. I said we believe the Bible which says that God's promises and covenant with the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob are eternal; that the nation of Israel, today reconstituted in its own homeland, is that offspring and thus the inheritor of those promises. My wife and I love and stand with the Jewish people, I said, because our God loves them as a nation and has a glorious future in store for them; He has also commanded that we love, comfort and serve them.
We want to go with them into that future because we know that God is with them.
My explanation seemed to hold his interest until, in answer to another question, I described myself as an evangelical Christian. The quizzical look left his face.
"Oh yes, I know what you believe," he said. "You believe that more massive death lies ahead for us, that two thirds of the Jews who have come home will be destroyed by armies that hate Israel, and that those who survive will become Christians and join with you."
His statement was matter-of-fact, without rancor. Nor did his pleasant demeanor change as he leveled the damning charge that, ultimately, my motivation for "loving Israel" was the selfish outworking of a Christian agenda.
I'll record my response to him in a sequel to this article.
My reader may (or may not) be surprised to know that a great many Jews, including those who have expressed genuine gratitude for Christian support and friendship these past painful years, believe that the position described by my neighbor -- and known in Christianese as pre-millennial Dispensationalism -- is universally held by Christian Zionists.
Let me give you another example:
Under the headline "Jewish community grapples with evangelical support," The Jewish Journal (April 21 to May 4, 2006) reported on an interfaith gathering in Boston earlier this year.
Convened in a Brookline synagogue, the event was called "Comfort My People -- Jews and Christians standing together for Israel."
"It is the kind of meeting," said the Journal, "that has become more and more common in the past few years as Jews and evangelicals, united in their support for Israel, have built closer spiritual and political bonds."
Undermining these growing ties, however, is the widely-held and deeply-rooted suspicion that these Christians have a "secret agenda" -- the conversion of the Jews.
While a participating rabbi dismissed the threat, saying the leadership of this Christian group "doesn't have the perspective that a lot of evangelicals do," the Journal reporter noted:
"It is precisely that concern -- that the ultimate goal of such encounters is the conversion of the Jews -- that has bred skepticism of the evangelical embrace of Israel.
"The worry stems in part from certain interpretations of the Book of Revelations [sic], which make Jewish control of the Holy Land a prerequisite for the Rapture, when true believers will be ushered into heaven ahead of the Apocalypse."
Said the paper: "Evangelist Chuck Missler -- who once told a reporter that Israel gets more support in America from Christian fundamentalists than from 'ethnic Jews' -- has called Auschwitz 'just a prelude' to what will happen to Jews in the Last Days."
Missler is far from being a loner. Other high-profile pro-Israel evangelicals -- preachers and Bible teachers -- also subscribe to these beliefs, among them:
- Kay Arthur, founder and director of Precept Ministries -John Hagee, founder and senior pastor of Cornerstone Church, San Antonia, Texas, and founder of the newly-formed Christians United for Israel -Jerry Falwell, Moral Majority founder and founder of Liberty University -Jack van Impe, whose website describes him as the "Walking Bible" and "one of the world's foremost prophecy scholars."
Kay Arthur appears on the dais at all major pro-Israel events in the United States, and was recently nominated to co-chair a new women's association of the Knesset Christian Allies Caucus. She has stated publicly that what lies ahead for Israel will make Hitler's Holocaust look like "a Sunday school picnic."
In her novel, "Israel My Beloved," Arthur has the heroine standing in a massively destroyed Jerusalem, dead and dying Jews littering the ground around her as she whispers in horror, "Auschwitz was never like this."
Hagee, Falwell and Van Impe all hold to this classic Dispensationalist view -- which says that the Church will be raptured out of here while the Jews are left behind to face, in the title of Van Impe's book, "Israel's Final Holocaust."
In "Jerusalem Countdown," published earlier this year, Hagee states emphatically, (as if it were written in the Bible instead of having been deduced from a variety of scriptural passages by mere, if well-intentioned, men):
"Let me remind you that during the great Tribulation the Gentile church is in heaven [while] ... a nation called Israel is alive and well" down on earth.
He repeats it elsewhere with this twist: "... please understand that during the Great Tribulation Christians will already be in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb."
The message that Jews understand as being an almost universal evangelical doctrine is that the Christians will be partying it up in heaven with "their" Lord while His Jewish people will be going through hell on earth.
What a dangerous and terrible assumption!
It is not only Jews who have identified pro-Israel Christians as all belonging in this camp. At a Council on Foreign Relations meeting earlier this year, guest speaker and former US President Jimmy Carter was asked to comment on the "religious right's" involvement in support of Israel."
This was his answer:
"Well, if you mean the extreme right, the fundamentalists, that is a group of Christians ... who believe that the final coming of Jesus Christ can only occur after the entire Holy Land is taken over by Israel. And that includes the destruction, for instance, of the Dome of the Rock and other Arab or non-Christian groups.
"In the final stages, though, it also calls for the execution or conversion of all Jews to Christianity. (Laughter.) Those are the two elements to it....
"So that's what the right-wing Christians espouse: the complete eradication of any non-Jews from the West Bank and Gaza, the ultimate coming of Christ, the death or conversion of all Jews. That's what they espouse."
Also this year, in its July 28 edition under the question-marked headline "Are these the End Times?" Newsweek published an interview with Tim LaHaye, co-author of the mega-best seller Left-Behind series. (Read the entire interview here)
According to his answers LaHaye, whose influence on the apocalyptic expectation of his millions of Christian readers can hardly be exaggerated -- he was also on the original board of directors of the Moral Majority and an organizer of the Council for National Policy -- holds and expresses the following views:
- That the antichrist will come and "sit at his kingdom after the Rapture." - That the Church will be "gone" before "the Tribulation" - That Christians should support Israel so that they can be blessed by God. - That many Jews "but not all ... will accept Christ" during "the Tribulation." - That liberal Israelis will likely support the rise of the antichrist.
What is bizarre is that Christians embracing this end-time scenario of an Israel that is attacked by the whole world, its land occupied, its cities destroyed, its people mass-murdered and its women ravished etc are seen as pro-Israel!
So we see one critic of Left Behind, Michelle Goldberg, describing it as "the bestselling series of paranoid, pro-Israel end-time thrillers...."
Goldberg says the books are openly hostile to the Jewish religion.
She derides these "pro-Israel" Christians, for whom "the chain of events that lead to the return of Christ depends on the existence of a Holy Land that is under catastrophic assault."
Nor are they in the minority. Goldberg quotes from the Left Behind website, where LaHaye and co-author Jerry B. Jenkins emphasize that "while it is true that in the broad spectrum of Protestant Christianity there are multiple views of the end-times scenario, the pre-millennialist theology found in the Left Behind Series is the prominent view among evangelical Christians, including their leading seminaries such as Talbot Seminary, Trinity Seminary and Dallas Theological Seminary."
It is important to me that my readers -- Christians and Jews -- clearly understand that this theology, this eschatology, is not mine. Reading back through the above paragraphs, let me highlight the beliefs that I do not share.
I do NOT believe that:
- The Church will be "gone" before "the Tribulation"
- Israel's Jews will be "left behind."
- The antichrist will come and "sit at his kingdom after the Rapture."
- Massive death lies ahead for the Jews in Israel; that two-thirds of the people of Israel will be destroyed; that Israel will face another holocaust; that Auschwitz is "just a prelude" to what will happen to Jews in the Last Days or that "what's coming on the Jews will make the Holocaust seem like a Sunday School picnic."
- A third of the Jews will survive to become Christians; Many Jews "but not all ... will accept Christ" during "the Tribulation."
- The final coming of Jesus Christ can only occur after:
1) the entire Holy Land is taken over by Israel; 2) the destruction of Arab or non-Christian groups; 3) the complete eradication of any non-Jews from Judea, Samaria and Gaza; 4) The death or conversion of all Jews.
- Christians should support Israel so that they can be blessed by God. - Real Christian Zionists hold these beliefs.
In my sequel I will spell out which beliefs I do embrace.
Ah! Well, if you're just going to get snarky...
I assume this is where you see support for the Rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Looks like you'd be heading up in your rapture with others who are asleep, as the Lord arrives down here on Earth (in the air).
Cloud
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3507
Air
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=109
Wasn't getting snarky (is that a word?)...Millions of people see the Rapture in the bible...Millions of others don't...And how do I explain that??? My explanation is that many people don't believe what they read...
And then there's the issue of 'rightly dividing the word of truth'...
I attended a Pentecostal church years ago for a number of months...Good people...Good preachin'...Good worship...
The preacher would talk about the covenant of God with Moses...And of course the folks in the pews would be praisin' God...There'd be many a-mens...A lot of 'preach it, brothers'...And a few folks would shout about the covenant message, "That's me, that's me...That's my covenant"...
In the same message, the preacher would move to the covenant with Abraham...And folks would hollar, 'That's me...That's me...
And then the preacher would move on to the Apostle Paul's message to the church and how we're saved thru faith without works; lest any man should boast and the croud would respond with 'that's me, that's me...
By this time the preacher is stomping his feet on the stage and he runs to the book written to the twelve tribes of Israel, James, and says 'but look here, you gotta do good works and work out your own salvation like Paul says and be good to the end like Peter says...And the crowd yells, thats me, that's me'...
And then the preacher quotes from the book written to the Hebrews, and says 'if you stumble and fall, you'll lose your salvation...So make sure you're back here Wednesday night so you can get saved again'...And the people shouted, that's me, that's me...We'll be here...
At the end of the service, some would go forward to get demons cast out, ailments healed and businesses blessed...
The point I am making is obvious...You have to believe what you read but you have to decipher who it was written to...
You indicated it would take a new revelation from God to convince you that there is a Rapture of the church...Maybe He will reveal it to you...Mabye He has and you didn't believe it...I don't know what else to say about it...Is that 'snarky'??? I don't know...
Watch for those offering charms to show the reaper those who are looking to fly away in the Rapture, so you'll know whether or not there is truth in what you're being told about the Rapture here.
H3704
ëÌñú
keseth
keh'-seth
From H3680; a cushion or pillow (as covering a seat or bed): - pillow.
If keseth means 'protective charms', why do the bibles say 'pillows' instead of 'protective charms'???
The Greek and Hebrew have been translated into English printed bibles over 200 times...Maybe next time they will get it right???
:)
Well, I don't know if "snarky" is a word but it is a word that one needs no dictionary to immediately know what it means.
Look, I was raised to believe in the Rapture. I DID believe it with my whole heart. But then I became a Christian and carefully read the Bible again. Revelation leaves no room for a Rapture...even you see that. You have to sub-divide one of the Resurrections to accommodate it. But John speaks of one return of Jesus and one Resurrection at that time. Unless there are two times where Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit, then there are not more Resurrections.
That is the insurmountable wall I've been talking about.
You said: "My position regarding the Rapture is agnostic, not, however re the Second Coming"
Actually I think that is probably a good philosophy. I have trouble with the rapture theory. It seems IMHO that the whole pupose of the tribulation is to make Christians take a stand. Some of the "fence stradling" Christians (those who are pro-abortion, pro-gay etc,) will have to choose whether they support their secular beliefs or their Christian beliefs. To show this support they will have to recieve the "mark of the beast."
Will there be a "rapture?" Yes, it was promised that Jesus would return to collect his bride, that all the dead in Christ shall rise, and that after the resurrection of the dead then those living Christians shall be changed and go with Christ. That is clearly taught buy Jesus himself.
Will it happen before the great tribulation? I don't know. But my opinion is no.
Let me rephrase that, to show their support for their secular beliefs they will have to recieve the "mark of the Beast," otherwise they will endure the hardships and torture of Christians.
My belief in the Second Coming is absolute. On that we agree.
The point on which we may differ is "the Tribulation", in the sense that it is an element of Dispensationalism. Here, again, I am agnostic regarding the whole concept of Dispensationalism (the Rapture and Dispensationalism go hand in hand).
Both Dispensationalism and the Rapture are relatively new teachings, not taught in the Christian church until popularized in the mid-1800's.
I got side-tracked from the original intent of the post.
I think that some of the critics may be right about support for Israel having a lot to do with apocalyptic end times. But I doubt that Fundamentalists are as crass in their thinking as some of these critics would make them appear.
As for me, I support Israel because I believe they have a special place in God's heart, and that they are a special people.
Curiously, this article brought to mind 2 Timothy 3:13:
But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
The writer of this article is merely a cog in he wheel of the fulfillment of the prophecies he holds in such contempt. I pity the poor fellow.
Nope...What I was agreeing to was that Revelation mentioned two resurrections...And like I said, the first one has 3 parts to it...
I am just curious, not trying to be combative. Are you suggesting that the end times as laid out by Tim LaHaye and other Dispensationalists is fact? (I ask this question only because a Fundamentalist in my family brought out LaHaye's timeline of the end times to rebut my anti-Rapture questions.)
Or would you agree that Christians can have differing views on end times?
I happen to believe the "prophecies" of God. But so did the Pharisees, the religious Fundamentalists of the day, believe the prophesies of God. They were wrong.
Jesus does not 'return' for the Rapture...It's the saved who do the travelling...
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women] that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear [your] lies?
So, let's go with kacah {kaw-saw'}. 1) to cover, conceal, hide
Would you be covering some kind of bed with those pillows in the armholes in your garments? To what purpose?
The Greek and Hebrew have been translated into English printed bibles over 200 times...Maybe next time they will get it right???
Don't completely rely on any of the translators or blame them. They offer you a guide, but it's up to you to use the tools available to you to seek beyond the words they selected, words which made sense to *them*.
13:18, with it's coverings & scarves looks like talk about practices of another religion. I do not know what they teach about the end times, other than victory for them. At least some of their sects teach that Ishmael was the eldest, thus the rightful heir to the Prophesies, making Israel & his children usurpers.
Many have been deceived by the teachings of the false prophet, but I don't think many Christians are or will be. Yet, we are taught that many of our own *will* be deceived, because the Anti-Christ will look victorious for awhile AND he won't be using their book to deceive us, but our own.
Lay it all out, chapter & verse.
Which brings us back to the issue of the First Resurrection. John is explicit in chapter 20 that Jesus returns, binds Satan, and then occurs the First Resurrection.
I do not believe that Christians, the Christians who have become Christians based not on their own system of picking and choosing which Scripture to believe and which not to believe, and based not on which of God's principles and commandments they like and which they don't and which they will follow and which they won't, but based on what God Himself told us it takes to have our sin debt settled with Him, will be removed from the scene before God brings judgement on the earth. I believe God when He says:
Revelation 3:10:
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
At no time in the history of the world did God ever leave His own people to suffer the judgement that He brought on people who rejected him. God got Noah out of the flood, God took Lot out of his destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah- the Scriptures are full of examples of God's judgement being reserved for those who have chosen to reject Him, not for His own people.
I therefore believe in a literal rapture, and I believe in a seven-year period of wrath upon the earth and on those who do not know God. I know that the people of Noah's day laughed at him when he was building the ark and laughed at the idea of a "flood" because up until that time, it had never rained. And as God says, there is nothing new under the sun, and so there are those today who laugh at the idea of a rapture because in their limited, finite, fallen human minds, they cannot imagine such a thing. And, it is also not politically correct to suggest that there is a penalty for sin; that there is a day of accounting to God.
And I do believe that Christians can have differing views on the end times, but when I see what is happening in the world today matching up exactly with Scripture, I have to believe what Scripture states about the last months and days before Christ returns.
C'mon now...You've read the bible...You know where the verses are at...
You've shown us that you like to 'change' the bible...Either you don't believe it, or you don't like what it says...
And the ones you posted are a good place to start...
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Looks like you'd be heading up in your rapture with others who are asleep, as the Lord arrives down here on Earth (in the air).
So let me ask, did you see anything in any one of those verses that said Jesus would land on the ground??? I didn't...You added to the scripture to make it fit your theology...
I'm just going to hit on a couple of verses due to a lack of time...Look at this one...Here's the 2nd coming...
1Th 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Did you get that??? When Jesus shows up at the 2nd coming, his saints, the church, will be coming with him...They have gone up...Now, they/we will come back down...Why, to do battle at the end of the tribulation...Just prior to Jesus setting up His Kingdom on the Earth for a thousand years...That's right, WE are going to fight and kill...
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Although most (or all) of the Catholic translations didn't use the word 'now', it's in the Majority Text...But as you can see, the statement is that if Jesus' Kingdom were in place now (then), his servants would slaughter those who oppose Him...
These are just a couple of the verses...And there's a bundle of 'em...You've read 'em...You don't believe 'em...
Christians are going up...They're getting married...They're coming back with Jesus at the end of the Tribulation...And they're/we're going to slaughter a couple hundred million people...
It's in there...Believe it, or don't...
I think that if you look again, you'll see the first resurrection doesn't take place til after the millenial reign of Jesus...
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