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To: wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock; Blogger; ...
Who has the authority to interpret in your sect? Who is the sole person who can make infallible statements that you must follow if you are to be in good standing in your sect?

Not only a single man, but a church hierarchy that appears to elevate itself above God's word...

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
CHAPTER THREE

WE BELIEVE...

166) Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

**Aside: I received my faith from God alone. Thank you, God. Thank you, Jesus Christ. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Pity the poor castaway on some desert island. No church to save him; his soul lost forever because "he cannot believe alone."

168) It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith. Everywhere, it is the Church that first confesses the Lord: "Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you", as we sing in the hymn "Te Deum"; with her and in her, we are won over and brought to confess: "I believe", "We believe". It is through the Church that we receive faith and new life in Christ by Baptism. In the Rituale Romanum, the minister of Baptism asks the catechumen: "What do you ask of God's Church?" And the answer is: "Faith." "What does faith offer you?" "Eternal life."54

**Aside: The church is made up of all true believers. The church does not predate the word of God nor the naming of the elect. To venerate the earthly institution over the eternal sacrifice is error.

169) Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

**Aside: "the church is the mother of our new birth, but not the author of our salvation"??? Say what? Such a statement would shock Paul -- "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5)

171) The Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth", faithfully guards "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints". She guards the memory of Christ's words; it is she who from generation to generation hands on the apostles' confession of faith.57 As a mother who teaches her children to speak and so to understand and communicate, the Church our Mother teaches us the language of faith in order to introduce us to the understanding and the life of faith.

**Aside: "The church guards the memory of Christ's words"? Why not the words themselves, and not just the "memory" of them? "Memory" can be awfully subjective.

173) "Indeed, the Church, though scattered throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, having received the faith from the apostles and their disciples. . . guards [this preaching and faith] with care, as dwelling in but a single house, and similarly believes as if having but one soul and a single heart, and preaches, teaches and hands on this faith with a unanimous voice, as if possessing only one mouth."59

**Aside: "Unanimous voice"? Hardly.

174) "For though languages differ throughout the world, the content of the Tradition is one and the same. The Churches established in Germany have no other faith or Tradition, nor do those of the Iberians, nor those of the Celts, nor those of the East, of Egypt, of Libya, nor those established at the center of the world. . ."60 The Church's message "is true and solid, in which one and the same way of salvation appears throughout the whole world."

**Aside: "the content of the Tradition is the same..." No, it's not. "Tradition" by definition, changes with time and circumstance.

175) "We guard with care the faith that we have received from the Church, for without ceasing, under the action of God's Spirit, this deposit of great price, as if in an excellent vessel, is constantly being renewed and causes the very vessel that contains it to be renewed."62

**Aside: Faith itself comes from the Church? Paul would be pretty shocked to read that one. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

181) "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

**Aside: Ecclesial: "adjective; pertaining to a church or its functions, teachings, or organization." So men's belief in Jesus Christ is an act of the organization of the church? Again, this contradicts Scripture. "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.: -- 2 Thess. 2:13-14

182) We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed".

**Aside: There's that questionable addendum again, "which the Church proposes for belief..."


5,736 posted on 01/13/2007 2:54:38 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks.


5,738 posted on 01/13/2007 2:59:43 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIShe ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock; ...
I received my faith from God alone. Thank you, God. Thank you, Jesus Christ. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Pity the poor castaway on some desert island. No church to save him; his soul lost forever because "he cannot believe alone."

You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be.

The church is made up of all true believers. The church does not predate the word of God nor the naming of the elect. To venerate the earthly institution over the eternal sacrifice is error.

It is the historical fact that the Church exists since the Pentecost (in fact, Protestants like to start it from Adam), and the scripture followed by a few decades; the canonization did not happen till late 4th c. Christ called the Church "his", -- please reconsider "earthly".

"the church is the mother of our new birth, but not the author of our salvation"??? Say what?

We receive baptism from the Church, and the Church received the gift to give it from Christ, Who then is the Author of the salvation therein. I don't know what you do on your island.

"The church guards the memory of Christ's words"? Why not the words themselves, and not just the "memory" of them?

Because " there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Speaking of guarding the words themselves, can you think of any thief who stole 7 books of the word of God? I can.

"Unanimous voice"? Hardly

On the matter of faith, there is no dissenting voice in the Church. See the Canons of St. Vincent of Lerins.

"Tradition" by definition, changes with time and circumstance

Not by the Church's definition. We distinguish between the Holy Tradition that is immutable, and local and temporal traditions such as the liturgy rubrics and priest disciplines that can change because and when they should change.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

And the Church is the speaker, as previously explained.

So men's belief in Jesus Christ is an act of the organization of the church?

Men's belief in Jesus Christ depends on the knowledge of Jesus Christ, received from the Chruch who is sent by Him and intimately knows Him.

questionable addendum

But of course. The Church established the canon and discerns the authentic tradition. You on your island cannot do it even if you wanted to.

***

I praise you for reading the Catechism, and urge all who like you, are curious about the teaching of the Catholci faith do read it and see what our faith is for yourselves.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

5,882 posted on 01/14/2007 8:37:49 AM PST by annalex
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