Posted on 12/11/2006 6:29:15 AM PST by xzins
Nevertheless, no Catholic thinks Mary is Divine. All our Worship is directed soley to God.
It is worthwhile to note, as Malachias prophesised, God would be Worshipped with Sacrifice offered unto His name.
Only the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church offers such a Sacrifice.
The protestant reformers changed the words in Malchais from SACRIFICE to INCENESE and Clean Oblation to Pure Offering and started y'all down the road that ended-up cheating y'all out of Worship acceptable to God.
Of course, those were not the only words the reformers changed - there are many others - but those were the crucials one when the reformers abandoned the Worship of God as Jesus commanded at the Last Supper.
Now, y'all are fine, well-intentioned Christians, but you do not have worship acceptable to God - you do not have any Worship of God, frankly, (as that necessarily entails Sacrifice)so, I think a more profitable use of your time could be found for Advent rather than attacking Mary's perpetual virginity
You wrote: "These threads on Mary are difficult because we Protestants can feel our Catholic FRiends recoiling when we state our belief that Mary was as human as you or me."
That suggests that you think that Catholics think that Mary is less human than we are.
-A8
That's not the question.
I didn't ask you whether you thought Mary was sinless or not. I asked you to justify your claim that Catholics thought Mary wasn't "as human as you or me". You responded to A8's similar question by referencing my post which pointed out that sinlessness makes Mary more human, not less. How you can equate "more human" to "less human" is a mystery to me.
Why are you running away from that earlier claim, and trying to change the question?
And, incidentally, you're wrong. Adam and Eve were sinless before the Fall.
Dr. E.: I am not implying it. Scripture states it.
If "sinfulness is a necessary part of being human", then either Christ was not human, or Christ was sinful. Both are heresies.
-A8
"And, incidentally, you're wrong. Adam and Eve were sinless before the Fall."
Did Adam and Eve walk the earth? Then how is he wrong?
Did Adam and Eve walk the earth? Did they not sin? Then how is he wrong?
Actually, we're being told now that that made her merely a "package" who is worthy mostly of being ignored.
I pray to the Trinitarian God of all creation, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, just as Jesus instructed in His sermon on the Mount.
To whom do you pray?
She said that no sinless person ever walked the earth. Adam and Eve were sinless persons until the Fall, and they "walked the earth" before the Fall, hence it's false to say that the only sinless person who ever walked the earth was Jesus.
A Poison Tree
by William Blake
I was angry with my friend;
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.
And I waterd it in fears,
Night and morning with my tears:
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.
And it grew both day and night,
Till it bore an apple bright.
And my foe beheld it shine,
And he knew that it was mine.
And into my garden stole.
When the night had veiled the pole;
In the morning glad I see,
My foe outstretchd beneath the tree.
" Actually, we're being told now that that made her merely a "package" who is worthy mostly of being ignored."
I don't ignore her, we just don't turn her into a demigod.
I thought you said there were no Scriptural grounds for praying to anyone except the risen Christ? Now you're saying something different. How am I supposed to keep up?
To whom do you pray?
If you contradict yourself any more, I'm going to start praying to the law of non-contradiction.
Neither is misapplying old cliches. (sp??)
You're the one pounding and not responding.
Friends don't let friends do Docetism. ;-)
I guess some people need more clarification than others. I do not believe Mary was less than human. I believe Mary was human in every way possible and experienced an extraordinary event by giving birth to Jesus. I do believe, however, Catholics view Mary as more than human.
I don't believe that Mary was "more than human".
Is it "more than human" to be born sinless and remain sinless for one's entire life? Is it "more than human" to rise bodily into heaven?
It's "valid" but not "indissoluble", unless it's known beforehand that consummation is impossible.
What exactly does the Catholic Church teach about Mary that treats her, in your opinion, as "more than human"?
Is it "more than human" to be born sinless and remain sinless for one's entire life?
No.
Is it "more than human" to rise bodily into heaven?
No, rising bodily into heaven is accidental to human nature.
-A8
Nobody is claiming that Mary did either of those things by human nature unaided by divine grace.
As far as it being "more than human," if you are an orthodox Christian, then you profess both that the blessed in heaven will be sinless and remain sinless forever, and that the blessed will be raised bodily on the Last Day and taken up to heaven.
If that doesn't make the blessed "more than human," then it can't make Mary "more than human," either.
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