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“The Fourth Secret of Fatima”
Catholic Family News ^ | January, 2007 | John Vennari

Posted on 12/15/2006 8:27:49 PM PST by Dajjal

“The Fourth Secret of Fatima”

Mainstream Italian Author Argues
Third Secret of Fatima Not Entirely Revealed

Secretary of Pope John XXIII Admits There Are Two Texts

by John Vennari

 

             On November 22, 2006, Antonio Socci’s Il Quarto Segreto di Fatima (The Fourth Secret of Fatima), hit bookstores in Italy. The author, after much investigation, comes to the conclusion that the Vatican has not formally released the entire Third Secret.
             The importance of this book cannot be overemphasized. Mr. Socci is a famous, mainstream Italian author and TV anchor man, not associated with any “traditionalist” group. In fact, he began the project firmly believing the Vatican had released the entire Secret on June 26, 2000. Yet the more he investigated, the more he became convinced that the entire Secret was not revealed

Paolini’s Challenge

             Socci writes in the book’s Introduction that he was intrigued by an article published by Italian journalist Vittorio Messori at the time of Sister Lucy’s death: “The Fatima Secret, the Cell of Sister Lucy Has Been Sealed”. Here Messori spoke of the many writings and “Letters to the Popes” that Sister Lucy would have left in her cell. Messori then mentioned the Vatican’s June 26, 2000 revelation of the secret “which instead of solving the mystery, has opened other ones: regarding its interpretations, its contents, and about the completeness of the revealed text.”
             This launched a burst of questions in Socci’s mind. Why would Messori, “a great journalist, extremely precise ... the most translated Catholic columnist in the world”, cast such suspicion on the Vatican? How could a person like Messori, so close to the Vatican ambient, be persuaded that the official version of the Third Secret was not convincing?
             This was especially puzzling because five years previously, with the release of the Vision of the Secret, Messori expressed no reservations about what the Vatican published. Now he seems to have doubts. Now he seems to have questions.
             Socci responded by engaging in a courteous journalist dispute with Messori in which Socci defended the Vatican position. But then, says Socci, ”I was hit by an article written by a young Catholic writer, Solideo Paoloni”, which appeared in a traditionalist magazine that entered the debate between Socci and Messori.
             Socci says Paolini “listed a series of arguments against the official Vatican version (which was mine too, at the time).” Paolini argued that the Vatican is still holding the principle part of the Third Secret from being revealed “due to its explosive content”. Mr. Paolini had researched the subject of Fatima intensely, and had written a book on the Third Secret, Fatima, Don’t Despise Prophecies, which was published in Italy. To his own surprise, Socci found Paolini’s arguments worthy of consideration.
             Mr. Socci expresses his view that it was a mistake of the Curia and the Catholic media to ignore the challenge of traditional Catholics who argue that the Third Secret was not fully released. “For instance”, he writes, “in the book edited by Father Paul Kramer [The Devil’s Final Battle] which reunited the works and articles of various authors, there is the denouncement of the failure by the Vatican to heed the requests of Our Lady of Fatima, and it is affirmed that ‘the price of indecision in the Vatican could well be extremely high and will be paid by mankind.”
             In short, Socci recognized that there were many questions left unanswered, many points about the Secret that were enigmatic.

No Response from Bertone

Cardinal Bertone did
not respond to Mr. Socci's request for
an interview

            Socci’s misgivings only intensified when he sought answers from the Vatican hierarchy, especially, from Cardinal Bertone, who had coauthored with Cardinal Ratzinger the June 26, 2000 document on the Secret, “The Message of Fatima”.
             Socci writes, “I’ve searched many influential authorities inside the Curia, like Cardinal Bertone, today Secretary of State in the Vatican, who was central to the publication of the Secret in 2000 … The Cardinal, who actually favored me with his personal consideration, having asked me to conduct conferences in his former diocese of Genoa, didn’t deem it necessary to answer my request for an interview. He was within his rights to make this choice, of course, but this only increased the fear of the existence of embarrassing questions, and most of all, that there is something (extremely important) which needs to be kept hidden.”
             He closes his Introduction saying that he had not expected to find such a “colossal Enigma” regarding the Third Secret. And while he may not subscribe to each and every theory on this subject contained in traditionalist literature, “in the end I had to surrender”, he said, to the conclusion that there exists two texts of the Secret, one of which has yet to be revealed to the world.

“I Think There’s More”

             Readers will recall that on May 13, 2000, during the Pope’s beatification of Jacinta and Francisco at Fatima, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, then Vatican Secretary of State, announced that the Third Secret would be revealed, and disclosed what he claimed was portion of it. Sodano announced that the Secret speaks of “a bishop clothed in white” who, while making his way amid the corpses of martyrs, “falls to the ground, apparently dead, under a burst of gunfire.”
             Cardinal Sodano went on to indicate that this was a prediction of the 1981 assassination attempt against John Paul II.
             Though most of the crowd applauded Sodano’s speech, some were immediately skeptical. The May 13 2000 Associated Press quoted Julio Esteleo, 33, a Portuguese car salesman: “What they said all happened in the past. This isn’t a prediction. It’s disappointing, I think there’s more.”
             Indeed, many Catholics said, “I think there’s more”.
             Then on June 26, 2000, when Vision of the Secret was finally published, we learned that Cardinal Sodano had not told the truth. The Secret does not say that the Pope falls “apparently dead”, but says that he is killed.
             Even the Washington Post noted the discrepancy in its July 1 report: “Third Secret Spurs More Questions: Fatima Interpretation Departs from Vision”:

             This secular newspaper cannot help but look at Cardinal Sodano with a jaundiced eye, since it is clear that Cardinal Sodona gave a falsified picture of the Third Secret to which he force-fit a faulty interpretation.
             Concerned Catholics immediately contrasted what the Vatican revealed as the complete Third Secret with what Cardinal Ratzinger had said about it in 1984. In his famous interview with Vittorio Messori, Cardinal Ratzinger said the Secret concerns “the dangers threatening the faith and life of the Christian, and therefore the world. And also the importance of the last times (novissimi).” The Cardinal further explained that “things contained in this Third Secret correspond to what is announced in Scripture and are confirmed by many other Marian apparitions...”
             Yet the vision of a Pope being killed by soldiers does not necessarily reflect the “dangers threatening the faith”, nor does it necessarily correspond to the “last times”. Further, one can search “other Marian apparitions” in vain to find any reference to prophecy of a pope being shot by a group of soldiers. Nor is there any reference to such an event in Scripture.
             Speculation was compounded by the fact that noted Fatima scholars, such as Father Alonso and Frere Michel of the Holy Trinity, deduced from extensive study of what has been previously said about the Third Secret, that the contents concerned the prophecy of a great crisis of Faith in the Catholic Church.

The Experts Speak

             Of Fatima’s Third Secret, Cardinal Oddi remarked

             The late Father Joaquin Alonso (+1981), who for sixteen years was the official archivist at Fatima, and who had many interviews with Sister Lucy, testified as follows:

“It is therefore completely probable that the text makes concrete references to the crisis of faith within the Church and to the negligence of the pastors themselves [and the] internal struggles in the very bosom of the Church and of grave pastoral negligence of the upper hierarchy...

"In the period preceding the great triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, terrible things are to happen. These form the content of the third part of the Secret. What are they? If ‘in Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved,’ ... it can be clearly deduced from this that in other parts of the Church these dogmas are going to become obscure or even lost altogether....

"Does the unpublished text speak of concrete circumstances? It is very possible that it speaks not only of a real crisis of the faith in the Church during this in-between period, but like the secret of La Salette, for example, there are more concrete references to the internal struggles of Catholics or to the fall of priests and religious. Perhaps it even refers to the failures of the upper hierarchy of the Church. For that matter, none of this is foreign to other communications Sister Lucy has had on this subject.”  

           Bishop Amaral, the third Bishop of Fatima, said the following about the Secret in a speech in Vienna, Austria, September 10, 1984:

“Its content concerns only our faith. To identify the [Third] Secret with catastrophic announcements or with a nuclear holocaust is to deform the meaning of the message. The loss of faith of a continent is worse than the annihilation of a nation; and it is true that faith is continually diminishing in Europe.”

           Then there is the famous quote from Luigi Cardinal Ciappi, personal theologian to four Popes up to and including Pope John Paul II:

“In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church begins at the top.”

             Catholics had good reason to believe that there was still part of the Secret – a second text yet to be revealed – that contained “explosive content” regarding massive apostasy in the Church.

He Held it Up to the Light

             Catholics also had good reason to suspect the existence of a second text because of evidence from Bishop Venancio at Fatima.
             In 1957, when Cardinal Ottaviani’s Holy Office requested the Bishop of Fatima send the Secret to the Vatican, Fatima’s Bishop da Silva entrusted the task to auxiliary Bishop Venancio. At one point when Bishop Venancio was alone with the Secret, he held the envelope up to the light. He could discern that in the bishop’s large envelope Sister Lucy’s smaller envelope. And inside this envelope was an ordinary sheet of paper with margins on each side of three quarters of centimeter. Frere Michel points out that Bishop Venancio “took the trouble to note the size of everything. ” It is from Bishop Venancio that we learn the final Secret was written on one small sheet of paper containing about 25 to 30 lines.
             Yet the Vatican’s June 26 Third Secret was written by Sister Lucy on four sheets of paper and contained 62 lines. Here again, we encounter evidence of two texts of the Secret.
             This evidence was confirmed in a remarkable manner this past summer.

“Even If I Would Know More About It”

Arhcbishop Capovilla admitted there
are two texts.

            Mr. Socci had been in contact with Mr. Salideo Paolini, the young journalist who had originally challenged Socci about the Secret. Paolini generously turned over to Mr. Socci his findings about the Third Secret that came from the former secretary of Pope John XXIII, Archbishop Loris Francesco Capovilla.
             I will adhere strictly to the chronology of events as it appears in Mr. Socci’s book.
             Solideo Paolini visited Capovilla on July 5, 2006 in the Archbishop’s house in Sotto il Monta. After some preliminary conversation, Paolini told Capovilla that the reason for his visit derives from his journalistic research on Fatima. “Since you are a first degree source of information”, said Paolini, “I’d like to ask you some questions”, particularly on the Third Secret.
             Archbishop Capovilla initially responded: “No, really, to avoid misunderstanding, because it has been revealed officially, I adhere to what has been said. Even if I would know more about it, we must stick to what is said in the official documents.”
             This is a fascinating admission that gives a glimpse of how the Vatican operates. The Vatican presented its “official revelation” on the subject, and a retired Vatican prelate insists that he must adhere to the official documents, “even if I would know more about it.” It tells Mr. Paolini how policy is normally pursued in such matters, and it also lifts a curtain. It is a hint from the Archbishop, “Yes, I do know more about it!”
             The Archbishop smiled at this point and said, “Please write to me your questions and I will answer them.” He said he would check through his papers, if he still had them, since he had already donated practically everything to a museum. He then told Paolini, “I’ll send something, maybe a phrase ... just write and wait.”
             A phrase?, thought Paolini, what could he mean by “I’ll send you a phrase”?
             Three days later, Paolini mailed Archbishop Capovilla a list of questions. On July 18, Paolini received a package from Capovilla containing his answers and some papers from his archives.
             Paolini writes, “Alongside of my questions regarding the existence of an unpublished text of the Third Secret which would have yet to be revealed, whose existence is highly probably due to a massive amount of clues, Msgr. Capovilla (who, as it is known, read the Third Secret), wrote literally, “I know nothing.”
             Paolini was stunned. Archbishop Capovilla had read the Secret, he knew its contents, he was in a position to state unequivocally that the entire Third Secret was released in the year 2000 and there was nothing else to be revealed. Yet he had said, “I know nothing!”
             This expression, opinioned Paolini, was “ironically hinting to a certain ‘
omertà siciliani
’” … a kind of mafia law of silence.
             This was not the end of the surprises.
             The package sent by Capovilla contained some official papers and a small autographed card which read as follows:

“July 14, 2006
“Dear Solideo Paolini,
“I am sending you some papers from my archive. I suggest that you purchase the Message of Fatima booklet, published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, year 2000.”

“Many blessings,
“Loris Capovilla”

             What a strange suggestion! Surely Archbishop Capovilla was aware that Mr. Paolini, had researched the subject of the Third Secret extensively and already owned the June 26 document. It was clear to Paolini that this was yet another hint from the Archbishop. It was as if Capovilla said, “Read the June 26 document again, but this time, in light of the documents I am sending now!”
             Sure enough Paolini found the ticking bomb inside the documents.
             “By comparing that booklet published by the Vatican with the archive documents that the secretary of John XXIII sent me,” said Paolini, “a very telling contradiction comes immediately to the eyes of the author in ‘the reserved notes’, with a stamp of approval on it [official seals]. It is certified that Pope Paul VI read the Secret on the afternoon of Thursday, June 27, 1963, while the official June 26, 2000 Vatican document affirms, ‘Paul VI read the content on March 27, 1965, and sent the envelope to the Sant’Uffizio’s archives, deciding not to publish the text.”
             So we have a discrepancy of dates. Capovilla’s official Vatican documents said Paul VI read the Secret on June 27, 1963, while the official June 26 Vatican document claimed the same Pope read the Secret on March 27, 1965.
             Paolini immediately telephoned Archbishop Capovilla to seek an explanation on the contradiction of dates. Capovilla was a bit evasive in his answer, with statements such as “we’re not talking about Scripture”. Paolini immediately responded, “Yes, Excellency, but my reference is to on official written text (the official Vatican document), which is clear and is based on other archive documents!” Msgr. Capovlla responded, “Well, maybe the package Bertone [June 26 document] is not the same as the package Capovilla...”
             At this point, a light shone in Paolini’s mind, and he ventured the $64,000 question: “So both the dates are correct because there are two texts of the Third Secret?”
             After a brief pause, Archbishop Capovilla answered, “precisely so!”
             This red hot piece of evidence, published for the first time in Mr. Socci’s book, is the first time a Vatican official, albeit an retired one, admitted that yes, there exists in Socci’s words: “a Fourth Secret, or better a second part of the Third Secret (evidently the continuation of the words of Our Lady interrupted by that ‘etc’), which has not yet been revealed, and which took a different path inside Vatican walls.”
             Those Catholics who for the past six years have endured ridicule and contempt for insisting that the Vatican had not released the entire Secret, who insisted there are two texts, are vindicated by the findings published Socci’s Fourth Secret of Fatima.

Another Discrepancy: “Expressions of Portuguese Dialect”

             In the same chapter, Socci raises other points that suggest two different texts of the Secret. One of the most striking concerns the reported “dialectical Portuguese expressions” that the Secret contains.
             Socci notes that Cardinal Ottaviani had said that when John XXIII opened the envelope [containing the Secret] and read it, he understood it completely even though it was written in Portuguese. Yet Frere Michel of the Holy Trinity, author of The Whole Truth About Fatima, points out that the Pope had engaged a certain Msgr. Tavares to help him understand certain Portuguese expressions. Archbishop Capovilla also testifies that since the text contained expressions of Portuguese dialect, “a priest was called named Msgr. Tavares.”
             Socci insists this discrepancy can only be understood if there are two texts of the Secret, one that John XXIII could read without assistance from Msgr. Tavares, and another that required his aid.
             Mr. Socci tested this theory by consulting Mariagrazio Russo, an expert in the Portuguese language, who conducted an accurate analysis of the Vision of the Secret released by the Vatican in 2000. Not only did Russo conclude there were many inaccuracies in the official Vatican translation of the Sister Lucy’s four-page Portuguese text (which is curious in such an important Vatican document), but she found no regional or “dialectical expression”. This can only mean that what the Vatican revealed is different from the text read by John XXIII containing “dialectical expressions” for which he required a Portuguese assistant.

How Could it Happen?

             Mr. Socci constructs a hypothetical account of what happened in 2000 behind Vatican walls. Socci believes that when John Paul II decided to release the Secret, a power-struggle of sorts erupted in the Vatican. He postulates that John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger wanted to release the Secret in its entirety, but Cardinal Sodano, then Vatican Secretary of State, opposed the idea. And opposition from a Vatican Secretary of State is formidable.
             A compromise was reached that sadly reveals heroic virtue from none of the main players.
             The “Bishop dressed in white” vision, which is the four pages written by Sister Lucy would be initially revealed by Cardinal Sodano, along with his ludicrous interpretation that the Secret is nothing more than the predicted 1981 assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II.
             At the same time, at the May 13 2000 beatification ceremony of Jacinta and Francisco, Pope John Paul II would “reveal” the other part — the most “terrifying part” — of the Secret
obliquely in his sermon. It was here that John Paul II spoke on the Apocaplyse: "Another portent appeared in Heaven; behold, a great red dragon" (Apoc. 12: 3). These words from the first reading of the Mass make us think of the great struggle between good and evil, showing how, when man puts God aside, he cannot achieve happiness, but ends up destroying himself ... The Message of Fatima is a call to conversion, alerting humanity to have nothing to do with the "dragon" whose "tail swept down a third of the stars of Heaven, and dragged them to the earth" (Apoc. 12:4).

             The Fathers of the Church have always interpreted the stars as the clergy, and the stars swept up in the dragon’s tail indicates a great number of churchmen who would be under the influence of the devil. This was Pope John Paul II’s way of explaining that the Third Secret also predicts a great apostasy.
              It was an implicit revelation of the Secret. This way, the Vatican, and the Pope himself, could not be accused of lying to direct questions: “Has the Third Secret been entirely revealed?” Answer: “Yes, it all has been fully revealed.”
             There are some who may find this hypothesis difficult far-fetched. Normal people, they might object, just don’t act this way. I, however, find the hypothesis plausible.
             First, we have the recent statement by Bishop Williamson of the Society of Saint Pius X, who relates that a priest acquaintance from Austria told him that Cardinal Ratzinger confided (to the Austrian pries)t that he had two things on weighing on his conscience. One was his mishandling of the Message of Fatima on June 26, the other was his 1988 mishandling of Archbishop Lefebvre. Cardinal Ratzinger is reported to have said that in case of Archbishop Lefebvre, “I failed”, and in the case of Fatima, “my hand was forced.” Socci’s hypothesis supports Cardinal’s Ratzinger alleged statement on the forcing of his hand.
             Second, anyone familiar with Vatican
Romanita, should have no difficulty accepting the plausibility of such a hypothesis.
             The Vatican is a Roman bureaucracy in place since the time of Charlemagne. It can be the most tactful and prudent at its best, or the most evasive and cunning at its worst.
Romanita is a brand of power that is master of the understatement. It is adept at slipping out of awkward situations. It neither affirms nor denies. It responds to questions by asking its own questions. It evades with a disarming charm.
             As we now live in a period when “the smoke of Satan has entered the Church”, we must painfully admit that the post-Conciliar Vatican, in most cases, has long abandoned the Gospel dictum “let your yes be yes and your no be no”
(Matt. 5:37). This is one of the reasons the hard-hitting traditionalist publication in Italy called itself Si Si No No: literally; Yes, Yes, No, No, since getting a straight yes or no from present-day Vatican officials – finding out what a Vatican official truly thinks — can prove an impossible task.
             Two examples may help illustrate.
             Pope John Paul II, conducted his official “Papal Apology” on March 12, 2000 as part of his year-long Millennium celebrations. He asked Cardinal Ratzinger to prepare a theological defense of the Apology program to be issued from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
             Cardinal Ratzinger, who is certainly a progressivist, nonetheless did not approve of this program of apologies. So here is how he handled his commission. According to Vatican journalist Sandro Magister, one of the most pro-Ratzinger journalists in Rome, Cardinal Ratzinger constructed the arguments against the Apology program with great firmness and precision. He then constructed the
answers to these arguments in a weak and vapid manner. This was the Cardinal’s way of stating, indirectly, that the program of Papal Apologies could not be defended theologically.
             Yet he dared not say this openly. One would never know without a special clairvoyance capable of reading the Cardinal’s mind that this was his intention. What the Catholic ended up with, however, was “Memory and Reconciliation”, one of the most ridiculous, doctrinally unsound documents the post-conciliar Vatican ever produced – it was delirium straight from the sickbed. Yet this document came from the man whose first duty was to ensure the integrity of doctrine.
             Again, no one could here accuse the Cardinal of heroic virtue, but it gives a picture of how the Vatican operates. In the name of obedience, or at least in a certain compromise with obedience, Cardinal Ratzinger published a document on a doctrinal matter that misled Catholic faithful by the millions.
             Then there is another sad example of less-then admirable integrity from today’s Vatican, one that I experienced first hand.

Obey!

             Years ago, I was with a Tridentine Mass community who after 1988 had looked into the possibility of regularization. In January 1994, two of us traveled to the Ecclesia Dei office in Rome to discuss the possibility. As for “regularization”, the trip was a waste of time; but as for hard lessons on how the how today’s Vatican operates, it was invaluable.
             At one point of our meeting, Father Arthur B. Caulkins from the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei office told us that it was our duty to
obey! And if the commands are bad, the guilt does not fall on us, but falls on our commanders.
             Father Caulkins was serious.
             I could not believe my ears. This mode of blind obedience, advanced by a Vatican official, means that Catholic clergy, religions – and even Vatican functionaries -- will carry out commands that are actually harmful to the Faith and harmful to souls, all the while telling themselves they incur no personal responsibility because “I was only following orders”; “It’s my superior’s fault, not mine!” The New Mass, altar girls, Communion in the hand, rock’n’roll World Youth Days, pan-religious activity with pagan religions, all of these affronts to the Catholic faith are served up in the name of “obedience”; which is not true obedience, but cowardice and servitude.
             If the Vatican now operates on this principle as a matter of policy, which is a perversion of the filial piety that the Catholic owes his religious superiors, then it is no wonder that official anomalies and malfeasances stampede throughout the Catholic world. It also helps to explain Mr. Socci’s hypothesis of the compromised release of the Third Secret.

Mainstream Reviews

             Socci’s book contains many other points too numerous to detail here. He speaks of John XXIII’s and Paul VI’s mild contempt for Sister Lucy; the fact that the hidden part of the Secret predicts a grave crisis of Faith and probably contains negative warnings about Vatican II; the absurd Nov. 17, 2001 closed-door interview with Sister Lucy by then-Archbishop Bertone in which he claimed that Sister Lucy agreed with everything in the June 26 document, even though the document undermined Fatima so severely that the Los Angeles Times headlined its article on it: “The Vatican’s Top Theologian Gently Debunked the Fatima Cult”.
             Socci further says that the unpublished text of the Secret most likely contains warnings of immense natural disasters.
             As for the Consecration of Russia, Socci concludes that it has yet to be accomplished. This is evidenced by simply looking at the decadent state of Russia. We can only applaud Socci’s common sense. Only the most irreligious and brain-dead commentators could insist that today’s Russia, now rampant with divorce, abortion, cults, and homosexuality, attests to the promised Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.
             There is much more contained in the book’s 255 pages. As it is published by a major publishing house in Italy, it is likely to enjoy wide circulation and generate much discussion. A
CFN contact in Rome tells us the book received mainstream reviews in all the major Italian newspapers (including il Corriere della Sera, La Stampa, Libero and Il Giornale) and it seems to be causing a good bit of turmoil inside the Vatican.
             We can only hope the book will be published in English, and other major languages, as soon as possible.

 

 


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; catholic; fatima; fourthsecret; lucia; lucy; ourladyoffatima; secret; sisterlucia; sisterlucy; thirdsecret
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1 posted on 12/15/2006 8:27:52 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal

Let me see if I understand this one.

God allegedly sends a prophet to earth (Fatima, in this case). The prophet delivers a message, and God's church decides that they know better than God, and choose to suppress the prophet's message.

Am I missing something?


2 posted on 12/15/2006 8:32:43 PM PST by Hodar (With Rights, come Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: Jacinta; Francisco; fatima; narses; Pyro7480; murphE; Aquinasfan; Canticle_of_Deborah; ...

Third Secret ping


3 posted on 12/15/2006 8:33:59 PM PST by Dajjal (See my FR homepage for new essay about Ahmadinejad.)
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To: Hodar
Am I missing something?

No. This can happen when when the word of God and Christ himself aren't considered enough. It opens you up to all kinds of things. Sort of like a "living Constitution". But that's just my view and I'm not a Catholic.

And I'm not interested in arguing with anyone on the subject.
4 posted on 12/15/2006 8:45:22 PM PST by Jaysun (I've never paid for sex in my life. And that's really pissed off a lot of prostitutes.)
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To: Hodar
God allegedly sends a prophet to earth (Fatima, in this case).

The Blessed Virgin Mary chooses to appear to three children in Fatima, Portugal. Amongst other things, the Virgin tells the children three secrets. Sister Lucy was the longest-lived of the visionaries.

The prophet delivers a message,

The Blessed Virgin later appeared to Sister Lucy as an adult and tells her to write down the Third Secret. (By this time the first two were already known: the rise of Communist Russia, and the Second World War.)

and God's church decides that they know better than God,

The Blessed Virgin's instruction is that the cloistered Sister Lucy should tell the world the Third Secret at this time. Sister Lucy writes it down and gives it to her bishop. He won't open the envelope. He sends it to the Pope. The Pope won't open the envelope. Sister Lucy says that the Pope should open the envelope and tell the world the secret either upon her death or by 1960, whichever comes first. When 1960 arrives, the Pope is making plans for the Second Vatican Council, to adapt the Catholic Church to the modern world.

and choose to suppress the prophet's message.

When 1960 arrives, the Pope does open the envelope, but refuses to tell the secret to the world. Subsequent popes likewise keep the secret hidden -- until June 26, 2000 when the Vatican releases what it says is the full text of the Third Secret. But some have raised doubts about the text released -- saying either that it was not the actual Third Secret, or that it was not the complete Third Secret.

The book described here is by one of the doubters.

5 posted on 12/15/2006 9:02:11 PM PST by Dajjal (See my FR homepage for new essay about Ahmadinejad.)
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To: Dajjal

Happiness is a conspiracy theory.


6 posted on 12/15/2006 9:07:53 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: Hodar
and God's church decides that they know better than God, and choose to suppress the prophet's message.

It was rumored during the previous decades that the Third Secret was a warning about some great disaster threatening the Church. And even the text released by the Vatican in 2000 was of this nature. The speculative debate was whether the threat was external (Communist persecution) or internal (modernist heresies and religious indiference) -- or both.

The text the Vatican released -- and the "interpretation" attached to the text by then-Cardinal Ratzinger -- implied that the threat 1) had been external and 2) was in the past and is now over and done with.

7 posted on 12/15/2006 9:20:12 PM PST by Dajjal (See my FR homepage for new essay about Ahmadinejad.)
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To: Hodar
(By this time the first two were already known: the rise of Communist Russia, and the Second World War.)

My error. The first secret was a vison of Hell, and the second was about the rise of Communist Russia, predicting a second World War.

8 posted on 12/15/2006 9:31:23 PM PST by Dajjal (See my FR homepage for new essay about Ahmadinejad.)
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To: Pontiac

Bump for later.


9 posted on 12/15/2006 9:43:51 PM PST by Pontiac (All are worthy of freedom, none are incapable.)
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To: Dajjal

"to adapt the Catholic Church to the modern world. "

Which, of course, was exactly the wrong thing to do, and is still having disastrous consequences.

Satan wears silk "Vatican II" pajamas by Prada.


10 posted on 12/15/2006 9:51:27 PM PST by dsc
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To: Dajjal
implied that the threat 1) had been external and 2) was in the past and is now over and done with.

Sort of like putting up the "bridge out" sign 20 years after the new bridge is built. Lotta good that does.

11 posted on 12/15/2006 10:24:09 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: dsc
Satan wears silk "Vatican II" pajamas by Prada.

Wow!!! Truth is a bucket of cold water in the face afterall.

12 posted on 12/15/2006 10:36:36 PM PST by Robert Drobot (Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.)
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To: Dajjal
Maybe it's a secret, because it's a secret
13 posted on 12/15/2006 10:51:42 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Hodar; BlackElk
Yes. You prolly do not understand that Mr. Vennari is a schismatic and a heretic and he writes for a schismatic newspaper which is owned by a disobedient priest who is suspended a divinis.

The Catholic Church has already spoken about this matter. It released a report by a Commission headed by our Pope who was then the Prefect of the CDF.

It has been an otherwise wonderful Advent around here because such schismatic nonsense hasn't been posted in quite some time.

Catholic Family News has a subscription base of nine. And all of those subscribers also subscribe to The Remnant - another schismatic and heretical rag. If the combined subscribers all met together, they'd have about enough folks to field a football team - and it would be as effective as the Oakland Raider offense. :)

Outside of the schsim NOBODY has even heard of this rag - and fewer read it - and fewer still believe it

14 posted on 12/16/2006 4:36:14 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: marshmallow
LOL

Who needs an authoritative Church? Certainly not Vennari, Matt, Fellay, or Fr Gruener.

Outside of a few folks in FR, nobody knows or cares about those clowns.

15 posted on 12/16/2006 4:39:14 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: dsc

Wow. Cool. So, an Ecumenical Council was Satanic. That is an interesting take on "Tradition"


16 posted on 12/16/2006 4:42:17 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Robert Drobot
LOL...Y'all haven't had much fun lately, have you?

This is the first The-Church-Sucks-cause-it-is-Satanic-and-it-lies-and-here-is-the-proof thread in quite a while

Enjoy...:)

17 posted on 12/16/2006 4:44:53 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: nickcarraway
And, horrors, maybe the Church was, gasp, being truthful when it published the secret and the last living Seer of Fatima agreed with the content of what the Church published.

NAH......

What fun is there in THAT?

This is a THE CHURCH SUCKS thread and we must let the,ah, um, trads have their fun :)

18 posted on 12/16/2006 4:47:49 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: nickcarraway
CONVERSATION WITH SISTER MARIA LUCIA OF JESUS AND THE IMMACULATE HEART

The meeting between Sister Lucia, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent by the Holy Father, and Bishop Serafim de Sousa Ferreira e Silva, Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, took place on Thursday, 27 April 2000, in the Carmel of Saint Teresa in Coimbra.

Sister Lucia was lucid and at ease; she was very happy that the Holy Father was going to Fatima for the Beatification of Francisco and Jacinta, something she had looked forward to for a long time.

The Bishop of Leiria-Fatima read the autograph letter of the Holy Father, which explained the reasons for the visit. Sister Lucia felt honoured by this and reread the letter herself, contemplating it in own her hands. She said that she was prepared to answer all questions frankly.

At this point, Archbishop Bertone presented two envelopes to her: the first containing the second, which held the third part of the “secret” of Fatima. Immediately, touching it with her fingers, she said: “This is my letter”, and then while reading it: “This is my writing”.

The original text, in Portuguese, was read and interpreted with the help of the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima. Sister Lucia agreed with the interpretation that the third part of the “secret” was a prophetic vision, similar to those in sacred history. She repeated her conviction that the vision of Fatima concerns above all the struggle of atheistic Communism against the Church and against Christians, and describes the terrible sufferings of the victims of the faith in the twentieth century.

When asked: “Is the principal figure in the vision the Pope?”, Sister Lucia replied at once that it was. She recalled that the three children were very sad about the suffering of the Pope, and that Jacinta kept saying: “Coitadinho do Santo Padre, tenho muita pena dos pecadores!” (“Poor Holy Father, I am very sad for sinners!”). Sister Lucia continued: “We did not know the name of the Pope; Our Lady did not tell us the name of the Pope; we did not know whether it was Benedict XV or Pius XII or Paul VI or John Paul II; but it was the Pope who was suffering and that made us suffer too”.

As regards the passage about the Bishop dressed in white, that is, the Holy Father—as the children immediately realized during the “vision”—who is struck dead and falls to the ground, Sister Lucia was in full agreement with the Pope's claim that “it was a mother's hand that guided the bullet's path and in his throes the Pope halted at the threshold of death” (Pope John Paul II, Meditation from the Policlinico Gemelli to the Italian Bishops, 13 May 1994).

Before giving the sealed envelope containing the third part of the “secret” to the then Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Sister Lucia wrote on the outside envelope that it could be opened only after 1960, either by the Patriarch of Lisbon or the Bishop of Leiria. Archbishop Bertone therefore asked: “Why only after 1960? Was it Our Lady who fixed that date?” Sister Lucia replied: “It was not Our Lady. I fixed the date because I had the intuition that before 1960 it would not be understood, but that only later would it be understood. Now it can be better understood. I wrote down what I saw; however it was not for me to interpret it, but for the Pope.

Finally, mention was made of the unpublished manuscript which Sister Lucia has prepared as a reply to the many letters that come from Marian devotees and from pilgrims. The work is called Os apelos da Mensagem de Fatima, and it gathers together in the style of catechesis and exhortation thoughts and reflections which express Sister Lucia's feelings and her clear and unaffected spirituality. She was asked if she would be happy to have it published, and she replied: “If the Holy Father agrees, then I am happy, otherwise I obey whatever the Holy Father decides”. Sister Lucia wants to present the text for ecclesiastical approval, and she hopes that what she has written will help to guide men and women of good will along the path that leads to God, the final goal of every human longing. The conversation ends with an exchange of rosaries. Sister Lucia is given a rosary sent by the Holy Father, and she in turn offers a number of rosaries made by herself.

The meeting concludes with the blessing imparted in the name of the Holy Father.

*So, we have the sole remaining Seer expressing obedience and humility.

Just the OPPOSITE of the scandal and rumor and hate-mongers who endlessly recycle these false and abominable accusations. For them, it is not enough that Lucy is in agreement with what Holy Mother Church and the Pope published.

And they NEVER realise that the Fatima message, in describing how the Pope will suffer, implicitly includes THEM because THEY have done nothing but attack the Pope, the Council and the Mass for the past 30 years.

Ands, isn"t it interesting to consider that Sr. Lucy only went to the Pauline Rite Mass.

Don't tell me they HATE that reality..and SO, she HAD to have been held a captive and made to lie..blah, blah, blah...

Hey, maybe it really wasn't Lucy. Don't forget, accordding to them and their ilk, the Vatican conspired to kidnap Pope Paul and replace him with a duplicate... That is the sort of rigorous intellectual standards such folks operate with

Their hatred of the Church is visceral - and Satanic

19 posted on 12/16/2006 5:02:24 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Hodar
On November 22, 2006, Antonio Socci’s Il Quarto Segreto di Fatima (The Fourth Secret of Fatima),

PFFFFFFT..Four secrets. Big Deal.

I'm writing a book on the 333 secrets of Catholic Family News and the 333 secrets of The Remnant. I promise it will be a devilishly intriguing study of schism and how a schism alone preserves truth.

20 posted on 12/16/2006 5:05:56 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Dajjal; Hodar; Jaysun
That's not how history records it. At Lucia's sundance festival in 1917, well before the Communization of Russia, she supposedly receives a message from her vision that if enough rosaries are prayed by the faithful, then Russia will be catholicized.

None of the faithful Catholics are told about this vision until 1941 when Lucia becomes a nun. According to Lucia, she was told in 1917, that if the vision's "requests are heeded, Russia will be converted." Well ---- what happened for 24 years? How could the faithful pray the rosary for Russia's catholicization, unless they knew of the request by the vision? And no one knew about it until 1942 when it was released by Cardinal Schuster on the orders of Pius XII.

Why then? Why not sooner? Didn't beleaguered Russia need catholicization before 1942? How could poor Russia be helped without all those rosaries that no one knew to pray because Lucia kept it all a secret?

What was so special about the date of its release in 1942? It wouldn't have anything to do with the Vatican's hopes for prayers and rosaries on behalf of the German Wehrmacht's successful "crusade" into the heart of Russia taking place at that time, would it? Let's see, is that the third secret or the fourth secret?

21 posted on 12/16/2006 5:10:38 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Jaysun
No. This can happen when when the word of God and Christ himself aren't considered enough. It opens you up to all kinds of things. Sort of like a "living Constitution". But that's just my view and I'm not a Catholic.

Protestants waltz through life in 3/4 time, praying to God the Father in the name of God the Son inthe power of God the Holy Spirit. Our Catholic brothers keep trying to shoehorn a fourth party into this waltz and add goddess the mother to the equation.

22 posted on 12/16/2006 5:12:35 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: TomSmedley

Now, that's officially old!


23 posted on 12/16/2006 5:34:07 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Pyro7480

officially, it's called bearing false witness and libel.


24 posted on 12/16/2006 5:41:36 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: Uncle Chip
then Russia will be catholicized.

You are mis-informed. She said to pray for the conversion of Russia. Conversion means to turn to God, not to become Catholic. Catholics need conversion too.

None of the faithful Catholics are told about this vision until 1941 when Lucia becomes a nun.

You are mis-informed. Lucia became a nun long before 1941, people in the hierarchy were informed of the visions long before 1941. Catholics in Portugal knew about the visions in 1917. 70,000 of them were there to winess it, including socialist newspaper reporters who took pictures.

Did you know that there was an election in Portugal that was going to happen just after the miracle of the sun? The communists were heavily favored to win the election. The communist newspapers sent reporters to the pre-announced miracle site (Fatima) to mock the religious faithful. But when even the atheistic communist reporters saw the miracle of the sun, (and the miraculous drying of everyone's clothes) they left astounded and reported what they saw in their anti-religious socialist newspapers. The result - the communists lost the election. Thank God.

faithful pray the rosary for Russia's catholicization

No, not "catholization(?)", conversion. Conversion meaning "turning toward God". Also, Mary said to pray that Russia "not spread her errors to the rest of the world". That error is atheistic Communism. I keep praying that atheistic communism dies out completely and I hope you do too. As for 1942, world events were matching what the secrets said would happen. The hierarchy's was naturally more interested in the secrets after they started being fulfilled.

-----------------------

as for this article, dear Sister Lucia said in 2000 that the secrets were properly revealed

25 posted on 12/16/2006 6:07:59 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: bornacatholic

"Wow. Cool. So, an Ecumenical Council was Satanic."

Ah, yes, we can always count on good old bornawhat? to jump in and distort anything said on the subject.


26 posted on 12/16/2006 6:27:29 AM PST by dsc
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To: bornacatholic

"Their hatred of the Church is visceral"

I wonder if you really believe that falsehood.


27 posted on 12/16/2006 6:33:21 AM PST by dsc
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To: Dajjal; All

Heaven's Key To Peace


28 posted on 12/16/2006 6:46:08 AM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Nihil Obstat
She said to pray for the conversion of Russia. Conversion means to turn to God, not to become Catholic. Catholics need conversion too.

Well, I'm sure that is a surprise to most Catholics. But there weren't many in Russia, were there? There were a lot of Russian Orthodox, especially in 1917. So what would the conversion mean? Convert from what to what? Was that a conversion from Russian Orthodox to Roman Catholic? or did all those Russian Orthodox need conversion to God as well? There is quite a lot of confusion here.

None of the faithful Catholics are told about this vision until 1941 when Lucia becomes a nun.

You are mis-informed. Lucia became a nun long before 1941, people in the hierarchy were informed of the visions long before 1941.

Who is doing the misinforming here? If the hierarchy knew about it before 1941, and if rosaries were needed for that "conversion" to take place, why did the hierarchy keep it a secret until 1942? Didn't they want all of those rosaries to be said before 1942? Didn't they want Russia to be converted before 1942?

Catholics in Portugal knew about the visions in 1917. 70,000 of them were there to winess it, including socialist newspaper reporters who took pictures.

But did they report about those messages, or that there were any messages at all. Did Lucia and her siblings at that time report anything about a message? Why not? Nothing for 24 years -----

Also, Mary said to pray that Russia "not spread her errors to the rest of the world". That error is atheistic Communism.

But once again, how can people pray for Russia not to spread her errors if none of the faithful Catholics are told to pray for that until 1942? The time to have prayed was in the 1920's and 1930's when it could have been stopped before millions of those needing conversion are slaughtered and killed in the gulags. Where was the message then?

Instead the message is released in 1942 when Russia is then an ally of the United States, when the German Wehrmacht is under the Russian guns in Leningrad, and Germany's illustrious crusade to conquer Russia is in need of divine intervention of those prayers and rosaries for Russia to finally get religion. The timing is so suspicious. You do understand.

as for this article, dear Sister Lucia said in 2000 that the secrets were properly revealed

Well, knowing that she will be facing an uncertain duration in that Catholic purgatory, with her release from such dependent upon all those masses, rosaries, and petitions from the RCC hierarchy, would you expect her to say anything different?

29 posted on 12/16/2006 7:54:36 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: bornacatholic
28 replies in this thread, but you've only posted 7 of them.

Come on, you're not trying very hard.
30 posted on 12/16/2006 8:00:23 AM PST by Mike Fieschko ('One horse-laugh is worth ten-thousand syllogisms.' H.L. Mencken)
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To: Dajjal
The author, after much investigation, comes to the conclusion that the Vatican has not formally released the entire Third Secret.

Did anyone believe otherwise?

31 posted on 12/16/2006 10:15:28 AM PST by pgkdan
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To: Uncle Chip
So what would the conversion mean? Convert from what to what? ...or did all those Russian Orthodox need conversion to God as well?

Conversion means turning towards God. If you did not know, Russia was at the brink of the atheistic communistic revolution throughout 1917. Look up the "February Revolution" and Lenin's "April Theses". You will see that Russia certainly needed a turning towards God.

None of the faithful Catholics are told about this vision until 1941 when Lucia becomes a nun.

Lucia became a nun in 1928, not 1941. She wrote the secrets in 1933, following a vision she had of Jesus in 1931. She was told to give the message to the Pope, not the general public.

Didn't they want all of those rosaries to be said before 1942? Didn't they want Russia to be converted before 1942?

The pope in 1917 had already called for the rosary to be prayed for peace and for an end to the war. Praying the rosary for peace and conversion was no secret at all; the rosary had been prayed for that purpose for over 600 years.

The "secret" was that the pope should consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Mary said that if Russia was not consecrated to her heart, "Russia will spread its errors around the world".

Up until the '80's, Communism WAS spreading all over the world. Pope John Paul II made the consecration in 1984. Soon after, Communism in Europe collapsed without a shot being fired. That's pretty miraculous in my opinion. (some here may question whether or not the consecration was valid, but Sister Lucia said it was acceptable, and that is good enough for me.)

would you expect her to say anything different?

I expect her to faithfully and humbly serve the Truth, Christ Jesus, as she always did.

32 posted on 12/16/2006 11:14:18 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: Uncle Chip
But once again, how can people pray for Russia not to spread her errors if none of the faithful Catholics are told to pray for that until 1942? The time to have prayed was in the 1920's and 1930's when it could have been stopped before millions of those needing conversion are slaughtered and killed in the gulags. Where was the message then??

The impassioned desire to shoe-horn a goddess into the Christian pantheon is, I regret to say, the primary obstacle to Christian unity between protestants and catholics. The lust to elevate a mortal human woman to near-parity with Deity is an ongoing rock of offense, a scandal, a stumbling block to Biblical Christians.

In the cult of the BVM, we encounter one who has most of the attributes of deity: she hears prayers, provides an alternate means of salvation, grants visions and mystical experiences, and is the fount of new revelations. And, something in fallen human nature prefers a goddess to the God of the Bible.

33 posted on 12/16/2006 11:18:01 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: TomSmedley
False accusations are "the primary obstacle to Christian unity between protestants and catholics."
34 posted on 12/16/2006 11:22:36 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: bornacatholic
>I'm writing a book on the 333 secrets of Catholic Family News and the 333 secrets of The Remnant. I promise it will be a devilishly intriguing study of schism and how a schism alone preserves truth.

We all know there are
334!
I say cover up!

Who do you work for,
the Freemasons, the Mormons,
Mel Gibson's people?!?!?!

35 posted on 12/16/2006 11:30:45 AM PST by theFIRMbss (;-)
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To: Dajjal
The Blessed Virgin's instruction is that the cloistered Sister Lucy should tell the world the Third Secret at this time....
Sister Lucy writes it down and gives it to her bishop. He won't open the envelope....
He sends it to the Pope. The Pope won't open the envelope....
When 1960 arrives, the Pope does open the envelope, but refuses to tell the secret to the world....
Subsequent popes likewise keep the secret hidden...

Could this be the apostacty that the Blessed Virgin feared? Those at the top of the Church refused to do as Mary wished and thought they knew best.

36 posted on 12/16/2006 11:33:30 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (This is my tagline. There are many like it but this one is mine.)
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To: TomSmedley

"In the cult of the BVM"

You are hugely misinformed, and it seems that previous attempts to offer you the truth have fallen on deaf ears. I wish there were something that could be done about that, but until you're ready to listen, I don't know what it could be.


37 posted on 12/16/2006 11:43:10 AM PST by dsc
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To: Nihil Obstat

"Up until the '80's, Communism WAS spreading all over the world. Pope John Paul II made the consecration in 1984. Soon after, Communism in Europe collapsed without a shot being fired."

It ain't dead yet. China, Viet Nam, our own Demonrat Party, and now South America...it's too soon to declare victory.


38 posted on 12/16/2006 11:45:48 AM PST by dsc
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To: Pyro7480; TomSmedley
Now, that's officially old!

************

Repetition is, well, repetitious.

39 posted on 12/16/2006 11:48:20 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Nihil Obstat
Conversion means turning towards God.

You mean that all those Russian Orthodox going to church every week and doing their religious things were still atheists?

Russia was at the brink of the atheistic communistic revolution throughout 1917. Look up the "February Revolution" and Lenin's "April Theses".

Lenin and the Bolsheviks needed conversion, most definitely. So why not say the rosary for them to turn to God.?

The pope in 1917 had already called for the rosary to be prayed for peace and for an end to the war. Praying the rosary for peace and conversion was no secret at all; the rosary had been prayed for that purpose for over 600 years. The "secret" was that the pope should consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Mary said that if Russia was not consecrated to her heart, "Russia will spread its errors around the world".

So then the Catholic faithful were all lied to in 1942. I remember praying the rosary every Friday in Catholic gradeschool in the 1950's for the conversion of Russia. Was it just some big con job? We were told that enough rosaries would do it? Now we find out that all they had to do was this consecration thing and that would have done it. Amazing and it could have all ended in 1917, 1933, 1942, but this isn't done until 1984.

Didn't I just read where America has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as well? What is that for? to bring an end to Communism here? or bring an end to something else?

40 posted on 12/16/2006 1:07:01 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: TomSmedley; Pyro7480; Nihil Obstat

shoe-horn a goddess
lust
mortal human woman
on-going rock of defense
cult
alternate means of salvation........

Yes, it is officially old and yes, it is bearing false witness and libel

Strong, defaming language, too.


41 posted on 12/16/2006 1:12:33 PM PST by Running On Empty
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To: Uncle Chip

Wow. You were in grade school in the 50's.

My oldest is in the 55 year range.

Yes, we said a lot of rosaries in those days. And we still do.

It may take a long time for those rosaries to bear fruit--God has his own time and his own plan. But they were never prayed in vain, nor are they to this day.

As for me and my house, we have prayed years of rosaries--those wonderful 15 meditations on the life ,death and resurrection of Our Lord. It is the daily meditation on these mysteries of Christ Jesus that keep our minds and hearts directed to Him.

It is something you shouldn't feel compelled to deride and hold in contempt.

Since you have left the Church, I'll offer my rosary meditation for you tonight, that you may be inclined to repent of this kind of ridicule, which is unworthy of the Christian walk.


42 posted on 12/16/2006 1:22:26 PM PST by Running On Empty
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To: Running On Empty

Read your Bible instead of the rosary --- if you are going to do it on my behalf, and while you are reading it see if you can find any scripture for the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, or bodily assumption.


43 posted on 12/16/2006 1:31:21 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
You mean that all those Russian Orthodox going to church every week and doing their religious things were still atheists?

No, of course not. It means they should have turned to God and not to Lenin. Unfortunately, enough of them chosen Lenin over God.

Lenin and the Bolsheviks needed conversion, most definitely. So why not say the rosary for them to turn to God.?

We should always pray for the conversion of atheists and poor sinners. In fact, this prayer was given to Sister Lucia at Fatima:

*O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Your mercy.*

I remember praying the rosary every Friday in Catholic gradeschool in the 1950's for the conversion of Russia.

Thank you for your prayers. God bless you.

Amazing and it could have all ended in 1917, 1933, 1942, but this isn't done until 1984.

It is very sad. Did you know that in the Sacred Heart visions of St. Mary Alacoque in 1689, Jesus told her to tell the King of France to consecrate France to His Sacred Heart and to put the Sacred Heart of Jesus on the king's shields and seals. She was able to inform the king about the request Jesus made. The king said he would think about it. Sr. Mary told Jesus what the king said. Jesus told her that one day his patience would run out. In 1789, exactly one hundred years later -- to the day!, the "Third Estate" revolution began. Soon after, the king of France was jailed and then executed. He wrote in his last testament that he knew about it and should have made the consecration.

Didn't I just read where America has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as well? What is that for? to bring an end to Communism here? or bring an end to something else?

Yes. The consecration was to end abortion in the US. God forgive us and convert those who supprt abortion.

44 posted on 12/16/2006 1:37:42 PM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: TomSmedley

Paul is referring to it in his epistle to the Thessalonians as "strong delusion" that they should believe the lie, because they had not the love for the truth, that they might be saved. It is strong delusion that captures their imaginations.


45 posted on 12/16/2006 1:39:32 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Nihil Obstat
The consecration was to end abortion in the US. God forgive us and convert those who supprt abortion.

--- and those who support illegal immigration. Amen.

It's been good talking to you.

46 posted on 12/16/2006 1:49:46 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Dajjal; Hodar
When 1960 arrives, the Pope does open the envelope, but refuses to tell the secret to the world. Subsequent popes likewise keep the secret hidden -- until June 26, 2000 when the Vatican releases what it says is the full text of the Third Secret.

OK, I guess it it the various Popes who decided that they knew better than Mary. IOW they weren't sold on the whole idea of the authenticity of Fatima??????
47 posted on 12/16/2006 2:10:58 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Uncle Chip

I didn't need advice about reading the Bible.

I've probably been reading it before you were born.

I also don't always refer to it as "reading'--more often I think of it as "lectio divina."

Every day I do this, sir. Even before I received your advice.


48 posted on 12/16/2006 2:18:36 PM PST by Running On Empty
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To: Uncle Chip

agreed


49 posted on 12/16/2006 2:53:47 PM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: bornacatholic

Sister Lucy never went to Mass until 1970?


50 posted on 12/16/2006 2:56:02 PM PST by nickcarraway
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