Posted on 02/05/2007 4:05:05 AM PST by xzins
Pope Benedict was baptised at birth and will most likely be baptised again one year after his death, not by his Roman Catholic Church but by a Mormon he never met.
The Mormons, a United States-based denomination officially named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), encourage members to baptise the dead by proxy in the belief they are helping the deceased attain full access to heaven.
Church members are told to focus on their ancestors, a rite understandable in a relatively new denomination founded in 1830. But so many now perform the rituals for celebrities, heroes and perfect strangers that the practice has spun out of control.
Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Genghis Khan, Mao Zedong, King Herod, Al Capone and Mickey Mouse have all appeared for a short time in the International Genealogical Index (IGI) for proxy baptisms, said Helen Radkey, an IGI researcher.
"It seems that any kind of name at all may be submitted," said Radkey from Salt Lake City, where the LDS is based. The IGI also accepts names for rites that "seal" spouses in eternal marriage or parents and children in eternal families.
This has outraged Jews and baffled Christians who see it as usurping the memory of their departed relatives. The LDS says it cannot stem the tide of dead baptised in its own temples.
"The only way we could prevent it would be to undertake independent genealogical research on every name that came in, an utterly impossible task with the many tens of thousands of names that are submitted each year," LDS spokesperson Kim Farah said in an e-mail responding to questions from Reuters.
So Benedict looks set to join his predecessor John Paul and a centuries-long list of popes Mormons have baptised -- despite the fact that he, back when he was the Vatican's top doctrinal authority, ruled that Mormon baptisms were not even Christian.
"There is no reason theologically why a former Pope or any other church leader shouldn't be offered the same opportunity given to the rest of mankind," Farah said.
Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims The Catholics are not the only non-Mormons on the church's International Genealogical Index (IGI), a list of those baptised or cleared for the rite in which a Mormon undergoes a full immersion baptism at a temple in the name of the dead person.
Jewish Holocaust victims, Protestant reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin and Mohammed ibn Abdel-Wahhab, founder of Saudi Arabia's stern version of Islam, have all popped up on the list.
A purged version of the IGI is online on a website run by the LDS church, but does not show which rites have been performed.
That data is reserved only for Mormons, who can consult it at one of the 3 400 Family History Centres worldwide where they go to enter names for these rites using special software. The rites are then performed at temples off-limits to non-Mormons.
Radkey, who has exposed non-Mormon entries on the IGI for over a decade, alerted United States Jewish groups last December that the famous Jewish Nazi-hinter Simon Wiesenthal had turned up on the IGI as a departed soul cleared for Mormon baptism.
Rabbi Marvin Heir, head of a Jewish human rights group in Los Angeles named after the deceased Austrian, called this "very offensive. Simon Wiesenthal dedicated his whole life to Jews. I don't think he needs help getting into heaven."
The church pledged in 1995 not to list Holocaust victims and other Jews after many names were found on the IGI. It took Wiesenthal's name off its online list but critics like Radkey say internal lists still have large numbers of Jewish names.
Popes and fictional wives Pope John Paul II was baptised not once but four times in April 2006, in line with Mormon practice of waiting a year before starting these rites. He died on April 2 2005.
His name was purged from the online IGI, so a normal search will not find them. But his four now-anonymous files are still in the database and three still show his parents' names.
Pope Pius XII was baptised three times and also "sealed" in eternal marriage to a fictional Mrs Eugenio Pacelli. Saint Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order of priests, was also "sealed" to a bogus wife. Catholic clergy do not marry.
Names are purged from the public IGI after being found and publicised. Pope John Paul I and Pope Paul VI were both baptised and were listed on the online IGI in December but removed after Reuters asked about them, Farah confirmed.
But earlier popes, going back at least to the Crusader Pope Urban II (1088-1099), are mostly still there. "They remove any names that could potentially cause criticism," Radkey said.
Father Thomas Weinandy, head of the Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, described proxy baptism as inappropriate.
"We don't know whether the person would want this or not," he told Reuters from Washington. "Catholics and other Christians feel they are already properly baptised. But it's harmless.
"As for the popes, I think most Catholics would find that somewhat inappropriate but also rather humourous. They're already in heaven! So it's redundant, even if it did work."
Baffling notion Mormons believe the early Christians strayed from the true faith and only the LDS church returned to the right path. All those who lived before 1830 were thus unable to join the Church and have full access to all the glory of heaven.
To trace and baptise these people, it has built up the largest genealogical library in the world, the Family History Library at its headquarters in in Salt Lake City, Utah. This includes public lists of names collected around the world.
Clearly sensitive to questions about the practice, the LDS defends it as a central tenet of its faith. It argues the proxy baptism does no harm because the dead can reject it in the next life, a notion baffling to most Christians.
Farah said Mormons were "always deeply saddened to hear" that non-Mormons might be offended to find their ancestors' names had been harvested from public lists and baptised into a faith they did not follow during their lives.
Church rules say deceased who were born in the past 95 years should not be submitted for baptism without permission from their living relatives, but the IGI shows this is often ignored.
Farah said the LDS church has tried to discourage abuse of the system. "We continue to look for ways to improve," she said. - Reuters
"Seems just as legitimate as baptizing days old babies..."
I wouldn't expect you to understand the concept of original sin.
Since you seem so interested you really should learn more about the way the Apostles and those who were acquainted with them understood and practiced the Faith.
There are Catholic and Orthodox churches out there that would welcome you.
LOL! Mr. Trisham claims that one wife is more than enough.
I don't see anything about a "real presence" here:
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:51-55
I will ask again, was Jesus lying to his disciples here?
*************
Exactly. It's an interesting article, but that's about it for me.
MOST Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ,
present in all the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which He is offended.
And through the infinite merit of His Most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
That fella in John Chapter 6 and I have had many converstaions about your Eucharist...
I have participated in communion many times...I have eaten the flesh and drank the blood, spiritually...I worship in Spirit and Truth...
I do not build a temple and an altar...I do not provide a sacrifice at an altar...I do not burn incense at an altar...
God does not require a sacrifice from Christians other than the Sacrifice of His Son, once for all...I participate in communion in remembrance of that one sacrifice...
Like Jesus said, the sacrifice, is finished..
My mama remarked that all the children are VERY well behaved . . . he only brings one wife and her children to the reunions . . . but mama said it's the first time a 6 year old child has ever offered to help her with the dishes -- and did a good job!
I mean . . . what if your interpretation of Scripture (not the literal one btw) turns out to be wrong? It would be better to be convicted of a misunderstanding than mocking and flouting, I think . . .
< . . . offering reparations . . . >
Neither...I'm saying you guys take it out of context and mis-interpret the scripture...
It's a matter of some folks exhibiting such repugnant behaviour as to obscure whatever point it is they're trying to make, or whatever gospel it is they're trying to preach. Other folks don't do that.
Mormons have nutty theology (IMO), but I've never observed them being other than decent, polite, well-mannered, and well-spoken. I wish the same could be said for Christians.
Thanks, but not interested...
God bless you!
Click here for all the Religion Forum Guidelines
Oh, so you think of the Eucharist as consuming a "symbol" of the Lord's Body and Blood and that this "symbol" is going to give you everlasting life? That sounds an awful lot like idolatry to me.
Jesus again, was telling a parable...Speaking in a metaphor...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Funny thing ... that's I say about you.
"Neither...I'm saying you guys take it out of context and mis-interpret the scripture..."
After almost 2000 years of "take(ing) it out of context and mis-interpret(ing) the scripture...", we are so fortunate to have you around to tell us how to properly interpret Scripture. You must be a real genius.
But would that make a difference??? There are people on FR who present the same things I do but are far less FLIP about it...
As with you guys, I am convinced my theology is the correct one...And I've seen over the years that some folks respond from seeing the 'love of God' thru witnessing...I've also seen that some folks respond only when you stick it in their face...
I figure God raised up all kinds of people and personalities to get his word out...I don't mean to be so offensive...God didn't change my personality...Maybe he's using what He's got to work with...And maybe some folks will only respond to my kind of witnessing...
You got to admit, this is a lot more lively than those boring Catholic caucus threads...
Yeah, I figure that's why they depict every other dead person as in hell.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.