Trinity Facts

http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Talk:Trinity/old1 ^ | Many.

[kerryusama04]

Confusious say, one who dishes out much can take least.

[Diego1618]

There are places in the Bible where it is clear that the translators just added words that are not supported by the ancient texts.

One of the problems is the Hebrew word "Elohim". As used in Genesis 1:26, it should read in the singular...but is translated, reads and governs the plural verb "make" as a plural itself. This is incorrect. Elohim can be translated in the plural....as when speaking of "pagan" gods etc., but when speaking of the one, true God....it should be rendered in the singular. So....is it a uni-plural noun....or isn't it? The answer is yes....and no!

Genesis 1:29 renders "Elohim" correctly....in the singular. Same word as used for God in Genesis 1:26 governs the singular phrase "I give you every seed bearing plant..." In verse 26 the phrase of course is in the plural. The noun "Elohim" governs both verses.....so, which is it?

Throughout the Old Testament the Hebrew noun "Elohim" behaves as a singular noun and governs singular verbs, adjectives and pronouns. Verse 27 is also in the singular, not saying "they" or "their"....but "He"....in "His" image.

So, why does it say "Us" in the translation? We know that the translators were Trinitarians....that's a given. They had preconceived notions. The verbal mood for expressing a command to the "first person singular....or plural" is referred to as a Cohortative mood. This is related to the imperative mood which is a more common mood for expressing commands from the first person....to the second person singular. The Cohortative mood is found in Genesis 1:26. The singular person, God, addresses Himself jointly with those present at the time. Therefore in Genesis 1:26 God, and those present with Him, jointly make up the plurality expressed by the pronoun "Us".

The plurality of "Us" extends back to God and the Cohortative mood causes God, as the speaker who issued the command, to be singular.

The first person may be singular,(I, you, he). It can also be plural,(we, you, they). The first person can only speak to the second person. Speaking to the third person is ungrammatical. You can speak about them...but not to them. The first person can speak to the first person singular as when speaking to them self. But when the first person speaks to the first person plural, he addresses himself and the ones with him.

The three verbal moods for expressing commands or intentions are "Imperative, Cohortative and Jussive". All three moods are used by the first person and he may address them to the first person by using the Cohortative mood, or to the second person by using the Imperative mood and to the third person by using the Jussive mood.

The imperative mood is usually used by a superior to a subordinate...like "Sit down!" In the Jussive mood the command for a third person to a second person would be, "Make him sit down!" It is impossible for a first person to speak directly to a third person because the third person is the one being spoken about to the second person.

In the Cohortative mood the first person commands the first person, singular or plural. When the first person commands himself (first person singular)...it is as "I will sit down". But when the first person commands the first person plural, the command would be "let us sit down". The first person (subject) is still singular. The plurality of the ones commanded does not extend back to the subject.

Immediately before the words "Let us make man in our image" we read "And (he) Elohim said" וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים. The word וַיֹּאמֶר "and he said" is the third person singular form of the verb אמר (qal inverted future). This indicates that the speaker is a singular individual. Were Elohim a plurality the verse would have opened "And (they) Elohim said" וַיֹּאמְרוּ אֱלֹהִים. The phrase "Elohim said/ spoke" appears about fifty times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in every single instance it is "(he) God said/ spoke" in the singular and never "(they) God said/ spoke" in the plural.

But, then I could be wrong!

[kerryusama04]

When you get a minute, could you tell me what in the world you just said? That is so far over my head, I bet your ears popped, amigo :)

[Diego1618]

I said [Genesis 1:26]"Let us make man in Our image" does not prove a Trinity......does not even suggest it!

[Diego1618]

[Job 38:1-7] And Jehovah answereth Job out of the whirlwind, and saith: Who [is] this -- darkening counsel, By words without knowledge? Gird, I pray thee, as a man, thy loins, And I ask thee, and cause thou Me to know. Where wast thou when I founded earth? Declare, if thou hast known understanding. Who placed its measures -- if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched out upon it a line? On what have its sockets been sunk? Or who hath cast its corner-stone?. In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy?

Here is the "Us" of Genesis 1:26.

[kerryusama04]

Interesting contrast here:

...In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy?

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Cvengr]

Have you considered that perhaps the same faith of Abraham, was the same faith of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, as it is the same of those saved today?

Rom 3:22-26

[scripter]

Have you considered that perhaps the same faith of Abraham, was the same faith of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, as it is the same of those saved today? Rom 3:22-26

But don't stop there! ;-) If we keep reading we see Romans chapter 4 tells how Abraham was justified by faith. In the middle of chapter 4 Paul tells us (verse 16) "therefore the promise comes by faith." As we keep reading we see chapter 5 starts with... another "therefore." Well, therefore what? "Therefore since we have been justified by faith"...

So as we continue reading past Romans 3:22-26, we see your statement is most definitely supported from Paul.

[Cvengr]

Thank you,..concur

[spunkets]

"We know that the translators were Trinitarians....that's a given. They had preconceived notions."

No. The Jews aren't trinitarians. I gave their translation.

From Job 38-7, "And all sons of God shout for joy?"

The Jewish believe these are angels.

"I said [Genesis 1:26]"Let us make man in Our image" does not prove a Trinity......does not even suggest it!"

That's correct on it's own. The Jews believed they were angels, as in Gen 3. It's not until the NT that the meaning becomes clear. John 1:1-5, Isaiah 63, and the other passages I posted makes it very clear. Man being a trinity of soul, body and spirit, was made in the image and likeness of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That's the evidence for the Trinity. It's the NT that makes it so.

Matt 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

No one knows the Father, except the Son, and those whom the Son chooses to reveal Him!

[Cvengr]

In reading these posts, I have bcome more convinced that until one is called by the Father, and the believer places faith in Him through the Son, then the Holy Spirit doesn't rgenerate the human spirit in the believer.

Instead, a human who seeks to find God on his own, independent of believing in God hrough faith in Christ, simply scars his own thinking processes and interprets Scripture purely from a soulish perspective.

Likewise for believers who have sinned, but have never returned to God through faith in Him by His protocols, there is a tremendous worldly system of religion which pulls at the reversionistic carnal Christian, luring him into false religion. The carnal Christian seeking solace, but without actually returning to the true Christ, might fall back onto past soulish thinking, turnign to a worldly system of religion instead of relying on God the Holy Spirit.

The more he studies Scripture while out of fellowship with God, the further he scars his own soul, further decreasing his conscience from signaling his deeper reversion from God.

There are only two groups of humans, believers and unbelievers. If an unbeliever, the first issue is to come to God by believing in Him through faith in Christ. This only possible through the work of each person of the Godhead, one God. If a believer, the issue is to keep short accounts and remain in fellowship with God through faith in Christ. 1stJohn 1:9 provides ample guidance for those who deny His Divinity in post salvation sin. Then after returning to fellwoship with Him, the believer must allow God the Holy Spirit to do all the work of transmitting the LOGOS to our understanding, to our mind, to our heart and remain in fellowship with Him as we put doctrine into practice as we are tested.

Those who deny the Son, or the Holy Spirit merely blind themselves to the grace He has made available to them.

Those who deny the Son, do not have the Father in them, nor the Son.

[Uncle Chip]

Where wast thou when I founded earth? Declare, if thou hast known understanding. Who placed its measures -- if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched out upon it a line? On what have its sockets been sunk? Or who hath cast its corner-stone?. In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy? Here is the "Us" of Genesis 1:26.

Not so. These sons of God are merely shouting for joy. They are observing not participating in the creation. The "us" in Genesis 1:26 are participating not just observing.

Genesis 1:2 says: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Could that "Spirit of God" be the "the Holy Spirit"? Hmmm??? Otherwise why not just say: "and God moved upon the face of the waters.".

Why "the Spirit" here? It does not say that "part of God's spirit", or "a" spirit but "the" Spirit giving this Spirit specificity and a separable identity in the act of creation.

[kerryusama04]

Thanks.

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

my apologies if this has already been covered:

1 John 3:1-3
3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
NASB

1 John 3:1-3
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
KJV

---------------------------------------

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Heb 2:7-18
7 Thou (God) madest him (Jesus) a little lower than the angels; thou (God) crownedst him (Jesus) with glory and honour, and didst set him (Jesus) over the works of thy (God's) hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
KJV

[scripter]

As I see it, verses supporting the Trinity can also be found in Romans chapter 8.

1-2:Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

5: Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

9: You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

13-14: For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

33-35: Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

What we see in chapter 8 are references to God, Jesus and the Spirit and how they relate to each other. There is more in chapter 8 that best fits into the concept of the Trinity as well.

[Eagle Eye]

I gave their translation.

Where?

The Jews did NOT translate the KJV as you seem to claim.

[Uncle Chip]

I also note this one from Acts 5:2-3:

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart. Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

Clearly from this verse, the Holy Spirit is God.

[Eagle Eye]

Those who deny the Son, or the Holy Spirit merely blind themselves to the grace He has made available to them.

Those who deny the Son, do not have the Father in them, nor the Son.

A couple words that are immensley important are 'confess' and 'in'.

'Confess' (homologeo) means to say the same thing. A confession means that one truly and without reservation believes in his heart what he says. (See Romans 10:9,10)

'In' (en) means to be in (duh!), totally in, not partially out. One is either in or not in. If one is partially outside a real, one is not 'in' that realm. One is either standing inside a circle drawn on the ground or is not inside that circle, no inbetween or also to it. In or out.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Jesus is the Christ. The one God sent, the one God annointed one, the one that God glorified.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Confesses the Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, in, totally in, not a portion outside.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Anyone that fails to confess, truly say what they believe, that Jesus has come in the flesh (totally man) is not of God.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

How can anyone truly confess that Jesus is the Son of God and God all at the same time? It doesn't say confess Jesus as God, it says confess him as Son of God!

1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

So we see that the whole context of this is about idolotry. Failing to confess that Jesus has come in the flesh and that he is the Son of God falls in the realm of idolotry.

2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So far no one here has disputed or corrected me when I claim that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God who was born of Mary and lived a sinless life and became the full payment for our sin. The man Jesus obeyed his father, God Almighty, and was crucified and died. God Almight raised his son Jesus on the third day and the raised him up where he now sits on his (God's) right hand.

There is but one God and that God is one. God is not a man, is spirit and is invisible.

There is only ne mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus who was obedient to his Father God who sent him.

God is the creator. Jesus is his son.

Jesus is not God.

[Eagle Eye]

Clearly from this verse, the Holy Spirit is God.

God is Holy and God is Spirit. God is Holy Spirit.

But if you go to an interlinear you'll find that the definate article "the" is not supported by a Greek word and was added by the translators.

Sometimes extra words must be added because of the way languages may not directly translate one on one. Sometimes the extra words were added to support theology.

Using this verse as a proof text to support a third God and third person of a trinity is a weak, weak verse.

[scripter]

Clearly from this verse [Acts 5:2-3], the Holy Spirit is God.

That's an excellent example. Regarding the Holy Spirit and the Trinity here is another example:

1 Corinthians 2:10-11
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

As I see it, when compiling all the passages together we definitely see evidence of the Trinity.