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Book's Sequel Cites Explicit Evidence Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation
Christian News Wire ^ | Feb. 22, 2007 | Martha Gonzalez

Posted on 02/26/2007 9:52:40 AM PST by Alex Murphy

MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.

"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."

Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.

Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.

The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apocalypse; endtimes; rapture; tribulation
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1 posted on 02/26/2007 9:52:42 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

God's people have always had the hard road. Trials make us stronger.
Time and again, the Bible says "to those who overcome..."


2 posted on 02/26/2007 9:56:41 AM PST by Sherri-D (If you don't change the direction you're going, you're going to wind up where you're headed)
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To: Alex Murphy

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


3 posted on 02/26/2007 9:59:42 AM PST by TommyDale (What will Rudy do in the War on Terror? Implement gun control on insurgents and Al Qaeda?)
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To: Alex Murphy

Satan has not been bound for the thousand years of peace yet. Armageddon will not occur until AFTER that.


4 posted on 02/26/2007 10:00:52 AM PST by TommyDale (What will Rudy do in the War on Terror? Implement gun control on insurgents and Al Qaeda?)
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To: Alex Murphy
Well, a growing number of us believe in a post-trib rapture. It's called the resurrection of the dead, happens on the Last Day, at the conclusion of the Millenium.

Meanwhile other Christians prefer to cheer on their brethren in the eternal battle by conceding the war, and offering the other team a few uncontested terms at bat.

All twelve spies worked from the same data set in Numbers 13 and 14. Two drew the correct conclusion -- that the God who'd brought them out of Egypt had more miracles up His sleeve. The ten faithless, cowardly, and unbelieving spies, OTOH, preached the glories of defeat and retreat and capitulation, thus undermining the faith and courage of Israel.

The activities of those ten spies cost millions of people their lives. Instead of entering their promised inheritance, they got to walk in circles in the desert for 40 years, until all but two members of that generation died off.

God has, I believe, consequences in store for those who've made careers out of serving as unpaid cheerleaders for Satan's team.

I wonder if Hal Lindsey's commitment to defeatism has anything to do with his inability to stay married.

5 posted on 02/26/2007 10:08:30 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: Alex Murphy
I am in the minority on this subject. The Bible speaks of only one time when the believers are taken up to be with our LORD. He says don't let anyone fool you with this rumor or that tradition that the LORD has come. It will be truly visible, to all eyes... as the lightening goes from the east to the west.

In Revelation, it speaks of the saints being 'beheaded' for the witness of Jesus. So what makes them think that they will escape this persecution? Flying away in some quick escape theology, in secret, doesn't follow what scripture talks about.

6 posted on 02/26/2007 10:11:15 AM PST by BigFinn
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To: Alex Murphy

A few years ago, at a pre-graduation meeting of a conservative bible college whose official position is "pre-trib", I asked the graduates how many of them were pre-trib. Not one hand went up. I asked how many were post-trib and almost all the hands went up. Interesting that no one bought it, even though they had been taught it.


7 posted on 02/26/2007 10:12:53 AM PST by ZGuy
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To: Alex Murphy

I'm still quite skeptical that the bulk of believers will go through the last 3.5 years of The Great Tribulation . . . Scripoture is clear that believers are not appointed unto God's WRATH.

Regardless. He has promised to be where I am and that I'll be where He is.


8 posted on 02/26/2007 10:12:57 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: TommyDale
Excerpts from Revelation 3:

. . . .

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

. . . .

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

9 posted on 02/26/2007 10:45:14 AM PST by Logophile
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To: Alex Murphy

Author House appears to be a vanity press.


10 posted on 02/26/2007 10:51:52 AM PST by Lee N. Field
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To: Quix

When you can comprehend 'the sons of God ... the daughters of men', you can find your way through the similes and metaphors in His Word.


11 posted on 02/26/2007 10:56:21 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Quix
Enoch Chapter 1

1 The word of the blessing of Enoch, how he blessed the elect and the righteous, who were to exist in the time of trouble; rejecting all the wicked and ungodly. Enoch, a righteous man, who was (1) with God, answered and spoke, while his eyes were open, and while he saw a holy vision in the heavens. This the angels showed me.

2 From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw; that which will not take place in this generation, but in a generation which is to succeed at a distant period, on account of the elect.

3 Upon their account I spoke and conversed with him, who will go forth from his habitation, the Holy and Mighty One, the God of the world:

4 Who will hereafter tread upon Mount Sinai; appear with his hosts; and be manifested in the strength of his power from heaven.

5 All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified.

6 Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous:

7 But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect, and towards them exercise clemency.

8 Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them.

1Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him. (2)

(2) Quoted by Jude, vss. 14, 15.

Revelation 12

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Opening to the Shekhinah

"Whoever is humble will ultimately cause the Shekihnah to dwell upon this Earth.
Whoever is haughty brings about the defilement of the Earth and the departure of the Shekihnah.

The glow of lovers is a reflection of her presence
She is the flaming jewel of the Torah and the Holy Queen of the Kabbalah
She is the ancient one, the Holy Apple Orchard
She is the immanent indwelling presence of the living God
She is the animating life force of the Earth"

The Shekhinah is defined, in traditional Jewish writings, as the "female aspect of God" or the "presence" of the infinite God in the world. She is introduced in the early rabbinical commentaries as the "immanence" or "indwelling" of the living God, whose role as the animating life force of the earth is to balance the transcendent deity.

She may be distinguished from the 'Canaanite' Mother Goddess Asherah who the ancient Hebrews honored until about 622 B.C.E. when King Josiah removed the Asherah from the Jerusalem temple and destroyed the outlying shrines. While she does not appear by name in the five books of Moses, the explicators of the Old Testament refer to her in interpreting the text. For example, when Moses encounters the buming bush, he is told to remove his shoes and prepare himself to receive the Shekhinah. According to the rabbis, the choice of the simple thom bush as the vehicle for the revelation was to emphasize the Shekhinah's presence, since nothing in nature can exist without her. In Proverbs, we are introduced to the Divine Mother as Chochmah (Wisdom), who was present from the time of creation as the loving consort and coarchitect with the YHVH, who also reflects the association of the Shekinah with humanity.

In the Talmudic view, actions harmful to other human beings or the earth cause the Shechinah to flee, and she rises upward to the Seven Heavens.' On the other side of the scale are the positive actions of humanity which attract her presence downward to the earth.

The other way that the Shechinah is drawn downward is when people are in need of her as a comforting presence. The rabbis tell us she hovers at the bed of all sick individuals and is seen by the dying as they exit the world into the great light. According to tradition, the Shechinah comes to the good and true at death, giving them the opportunity to go straight up the center of the heavenly ladder in a moment of pure consciousness, into the merger with the Divine. The Shechinah is intimately connected with expressions of human love, particularly romantic and marital bliss. It is she who blesses the happy couple; the glow of lovers is considered to be the reflection of her presence, The scholars of the Spanish and Safed schools also understood that the Shechinah could "appear" to inspired individuals (or "Prophets"), and that the form adopted would be a reflection of the divine purpose (Novick 204-14).

Shekhinah is identified with the eagle's wings both in Exodus and Revelation and is thus the ultimate mystery the nagual of the shaman's vision quest exemplified in Moses' 'burning bush'. She is also identified as the feminine moon deity (Wolkenstain and Kramer xv).

"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself" (Exod 19:4)."

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 12:14 )

http://www.dhushara.com/book/torah/tor.htm

Don’t miss this flight!

12 posted on 02/26/2007 10:57:41 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
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To: BigFinn

Can you please give passage from Revelation about the part in regards to the beheading part, thanks.


13 posted on 02/26/2007 11:00:20 AM PST by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: Quix
Psalm 45

For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song.

6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. 7 You love justice and hate evil. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else. 8 Myrrh, aloes, and cassia perfume your robes. In ivory palaces the music of strings entertains you.

9 Kings’ daughters are among your noble women. At your right side stands the Queen, wearing jewelry of finest gold from Ophir!

***

To the tune of "Lilies." I’ll look up the Hebrew, if it’s Shoshanah, it’s “Roses”

[[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.]]

Bingo! Shoshannim, plural

M

14 posted on 02/26/2007 11:12:00 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
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To: MHGinTN

When you can comprehend 'the sons of God ... the daughters of men', you can find your way through the similes and metaphors in His Word.
= = =

Please lead us by the hand/spell it out in some detail, for those of us lacking in that perspective.


15 posted on 02/26/2007 11:34:09 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Jeremiah Jr

Great refs.

But would you please post a 7-12 paragraph or so summary in your own words with commentary as you see it?


16 posted on 02/26/2007 11:35:02 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Jeremiah Jr

Wonderful refs. however . . .

Please spell it out in your own words.

Many folks are lost on cryptic. Often me chief amongst them.


17 posted on 02/26/2007 11:37:06 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Quix

Think spirit of life and soul of body. You can figure it out, Quix. You have the instructions manual close at hand.


18 posted on 02/26/2007 11:51:15 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Alex Murphy

I suppose I am a pre-mil dispy, but I cannot dismiss the possibility that the church will undergo some nasty persecution before it's all over. Frankly it doesn't keep me up nights. If God is merciful enough to save us He's merciful enough to keep us.


19 posted on 02/26/2007 12:02:50 PM PST by opus86
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To: Quix
I'm still quite skeptical that the bulk of believers will go through the last 3.5 years of The Great Tribulation . . .

After Satan is loosed, will the horrors he brings to earth be of God? Who will protect believers from those horrors? Get behind me Satan! I think those who believe in the rapture think God protects believers by rapturing them up & out of the way, as though God isn't powerful enough to protect them here on earth... Do not fear those who can kill your body.

Scripture is clear that believers are not appointed unto God's WRATH.

Believers are protected by God. Have faith that He will see you through the worst that Satan can throw at you. If your body suffers and/or is killed is it any worse than others have suffered even unto deaths throughout the ages? Why do you think you should be spared from earthly woes, when clearly others before us were not spared?

Regardless. He has promised to be where I am and that I'll be where He is.

Seventh seal, seventh vial, seventh trump & not before!

20 posted on 02/26/2007 12:43:09 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: Quix

"Scripture is clear that believers are not appointed unto God's WRATH."

One of the verses that proves your point is Rev.9:4

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

The "seal of God" is His truth, His word that we have absorbed. That truth keeps us from the deception Satan is throwing at us. It pays us to remember that he is coming after us, believers, Christians - he already has the others. Rev.12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to
make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus
Christ"

That is us, Christians, he is coming to make war with. That war is with a flood of lies and done in a peaceful and prosperous manner. This is one of the verses that shows, not only that he is coming after us, but that we will be here when he does. If we are raptured that would not be possible.

God's wrath is only for those that do not follow Him. He will not hurt those that He loves and that love Him. However, the great deceiver, the anti-christ (which was mistranslated and should be "instead-of-christ")is coming before the true Jesus Christ and he will fool many. That is the "great apostasy" when people who have loved Christ all their lives will change their faith and follow him. How could that be? How could any believer change? Because they are deceived into believing he is Christ and they will think they are worshipping Jesus. Even if that worship is done unknowingly God tells us they "might be damned".

God said, 2Thess.2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them
that perish; because they received not the love of the
truth, that they might be saved. (11)And for this cause
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie; (12) That they all might be damned who
believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness.

God not only allows Satan's lies but sends strong delusion to those of us who have not read His letter with understanding.


21 posted on 02/26/2007 12:46:35 PM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: MHGinTN

I also have an enormous revulsion for such guessing games.

Sorry. sort of.

But lots of other people who might benefit from your insights will not bother either.


22 posted on 02/26/2007 1:04:53 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: GoLightly

Yes - 7th seal, 7th trump and 7th vial and not before that. The great deceiver comes at the 6th vial, 6th trump and 6th seal. As I see you know, that is all that number means. We won't be lining up to be tattooed or a chip put in our heads or hands.

As He said, "I have foretold you all things".


23 posted on 02/26/2007 1:05:24 PM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
And the famine of the end times will be about hearing the *true* word of God. The anti-Christ will set up his great worldwide church, display great signs & try to persecute all who refuse to follow him.
24 posted on 02/26/2007 1:26:47 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

He's at work already with his lies. The worst part is he works best from the pulpit. I have been taught, and believe, that he works from 4 hidden dynasties; finance, education, politics and last, but not least - religion.

The "true" word of God is already hard to hear and getting dimmer by the minute.


25 posted on 02/26/2007 1:46:03 PM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: GoLightly

God does all things well.

If that's His plan, He will enable me to live with it, thru it or otherwise.


26 posted on 02/26/2007 2:04:05 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Ping-Pong

Thanks.

Hadn't quite read exactly that perspective before.


27 posted on 02/26/2007 2:04:50 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Ping-Pong
Yes - 7th seal, 7th trump and 7th vial and not before that.

What about the 7 wives with 7 sacks with 7 cats? Oh, wait, that's from Die Hard III.

28 posted on 02/26/2007 2:20:41 PM PST by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008)
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To: Larry Lucido
What about the 7 wives with 7 sacks with 7 cats? Oh, wait, that's from Die Hard III.

Oddly, the answer to both riddles is "one".

29 posted on 02/26/2007 2:26:10 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: Quix
God does all things well.

If that's His plan, He will enable me to live with it, thru it or otherwise.

He will, but it's your responsibility to know his Word, so you will not be deceived. The rapture is an attractive teaching, but it comes from a view of a god with limitations, does it not?

30 posted on 02/26/2007 2:30:05 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: Ping-Pong
He's at work already with his lies. The worst part is he works best from the pulpit. I have been taught, and believe, that he works from 4 hidden dynasties; finance, education, politics and last, but not least - religion.

You are correct.

The "true" word of God is already hard to hear and getting dimmer by the minute.

Cutting through a lot of traditions of men does make it difficult to hear sometimes. There's nothing new under the Sun, so I wouldn't say it's any dimmer than it's ever been before.

31 posted on 02/26/2007 2:35:27 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

but it comes from a view of a god with limitations, does it not?
= = =

No.

There is a Scripture about being caught up to meet Christ in the air.

The issue is when.

When doesn't necessarily limit God in any way. Just depends on how He has chosen to arrange it. Neither way limits His power, imho.


32 posted on 02/26/2007 2:38:13 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Biggirl
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
33 posted on 02/26/2007 3:04:10 PM PST by BigFinn
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To: Quix
I THESS 4:16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, [Young's Literal Translation]

This is the heralding sign for calling out the bride to come to the Groom and go to the wedding and feast ... the Bride will not be left to be tormented with those calling for the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of God. This calling out comes midway in the betrothal period that precedes the actual marriage ceremony ... the bride and Groom are already sealed together in betrothal and following the waiting period (spoken of by Christ Himself with the parable of the virgins and the lamps), the Grooms wedding party comes for the bride and calls out and sometimes there was a trumpet sounded, then the bride and her entourage rush out to be with the Groom and His party and they withdraw to the wedding feast.

34 posted on 02/26/2007 3:39:21 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Quix

Right, but where does it say that that happens before Satan is loosed upon the world or that the Bride of Christ will escape all attempts of persecution?


35 posted on 02/26/2007 4:06:38 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

That's true - His word doesn't get dimmer, there is just so much else being said that can keep one from hearing it.


36 posted on 02/26/2007 4:10:02 PM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: MHGinTN

Fine with me! Maranatha.

Thx.


37 posted on 02/26/2007 4:47:32 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: GoLightly

I have never pretended to have it all figured out much at all.

I do collect puzzle pieces and commentary thereon.


38 posted on 02/26/2007 4:48:19 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: GoLightly

"... but where does it say that that happens before Satan is loosed upon the world or that the Bride of Christ will escape all attempts of persecution?" When you use 'all' it appears you are seeking to get the discussion into extremes ... the first 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation, the Bride will be here being persecuted by Satan's ghouls ... after the Bride Groom calls the Church out, then the wrath of God descends upon those left behind for 3 1/2 years, culminating with the cleansing of the Earth and the millenial Kingdom, THEN Satan and his ghouls will meet their final destiny.


39 posted on 02/26/2007 4:55:58 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: ZGuy; Alex Murphy
I asked the graduates how many of them were pre-trib. Not one hand went up. I asked how many were post-trib and almost all the hands went up. Interesting that no one bought it, even though they had been taught it.

What happy news. Onward Christian soldiers...

40 posted on 02/26/2007 4:58:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Quix

The scripture you refer to is 1 Thessalonians 4:17, that most people use to "prove" rapture. The subject of that chapter isn't about being raptured but about where the dead are. The subject can be picked up in vs.13:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.

In vs.16 it tells us that He will descend (but this is at the 7th trump)and of course the dead are first as they are already with Him. Then comes the verse many think speaks of the "rapture".

17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We remain until the 7th trump and then we are changed, in the twinkling of an eye (1Corinthians 15:51-52). The good, bad and ugly all get changed when the 7th trump sounds, into their spiritual bodies.

Paul used the words clouds and air and that has been interpreted by some to show us rising into the air to meet Christ. He also used "cloud" in Hebrews 12:1 - a cloud of witnesses. He is describing a large group, as a cloud of locusts. The word air here means breath of life, your spirit. So another way to state it would be, a great cloud of us will meet Christ at the 7th trump in our spirit bodies.

The verses 15-17 are used to teach rapture (the root word of rapture is rape). Now go to where Paul explained these verses:

2 Thessalonians 2:2 Be not shaken in mind...by the letter
from us about the day Christ returns
(That would be the letter 1 Thess 4:15-17)
3.Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU, that day will not come, except
there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be
revealed, the son of perdition.
That falling away is the great apostasy

The important thing for all of us here is to realize that Satan will come first pretending to be Christ and we can not follow him. He'll be so good at this deception that the "world will wonder after him". We must know the truth and stay a "virgin bride for Christ"


41 posted on 02/26/2007 5:00:34 PM PST by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
"We remain until the 7th trump and then we are changed, in the twinkling of an eye (1Corinthians 15:51-52). The good, bad and ugly all get changed when the 7th trump sounds, into their spiritual bodies." Would you show me something that verifies that contention? ... I don't believe the humane race has been transformed to spirit bodies at the second half of the great tribulation. Can you show to me scripture to verify this occurs when the Bride Groom comes for His Bride?

I THESS 4:17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That verse is the Bride called out by the Bride Groom. Would you agree to that explanation of the simile?

42 posted on 02/26/2007 5:23:20 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Ping-Pong
Incidentally, 2THESS 2:

Weymouth New Testament

2:1 But with respect to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to meet Him, we entreat you, brethren,

2:2 not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.

2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

2:4 and exalts himself above, every so-called `god' or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God. [The abomination of desolation.]

...

2:6 And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time. [What restrains him from his true character being revealed is the presence of the Bride, and what allows him to break loose -he is on the scene in that he has made deals with the nations, but he has not yet broken loose to be revealed in his reign of terror- to break loose is the whisking away of the Bride by the Bride Groom]

43 posted on 02/26/2007 5:34:53 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Ping-Pong

Quite plausible.

Thanks.


44 posted on 02/26/2007 5:42:21 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Ping-Pong; Alex Murphy; Quix; GoLightly; opus86; MHGinTN
"The important thing for all of us here is to realize that Satan will come first pretending to be Christ and we can not follow him"

1 Thess. 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul is just giving the order of of the calling of the church when the Lord returns first. The Lord does not come down to earth at this time but His church meets Him in the clouds (the word means atmospheric clouds. It is used 26 times in 22 verses in the New Testament for the same thing). The word used for cloud in Heb. 12:1 is used only once in the New Testament. In the air means atmosphere and is never used for "spirit". Zech. 14:4, " And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." gives the picture of the Lord's return described in Rev. 19 and 20, at the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the millennium. There He comes to earth and brings His church with Him. Without the rapture there is no scripture to describe how the church got to be with Him in heaven in order to return with Him.

2 Thess. 2:3,"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" and 2 Thess. 2:7-9, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," describes the church being taken out of the world (the rapture 1 Thess.4:17, not an falling away from the truth), and its effect from the witness being taken out.

The "falling away" in verse 3 is just another way of saying "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" in verse 7, otherwise you get the Holy Spirit being taken away and leaving the church to its own devices and no where in scripture is the church left defenseless.

His church has not been appointed unto His wrath, 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," nor are we subject to His judgment for sin (no condemnation Rom. 8:1) but for works done for His glory, 2 Cor. 5:10, " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" so the church won't be subject to the wrath/judgment of God during the tribulation period (seals, trumpets, vials) when the Holy Spirit is no longer extant but working as in the Old Testament with Israel.
45 posted on 02/26/2007 8:16:15 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Love your explanation and word studies.

Thanks much.


46 posted on 02/26/2007 8:20:52 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: blue-duncan

Thank you for the clearer exegesis.


47 posted on 02/26/2007 8:28:46 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Millions of Christians have ALREADY suffered the tribulation during the 20th century, and in some countries they continue to suffer.

I was always amazed at American Christians, who were good people, nevertheless assumed that for some reason they would be spared the test, but Christians in Africa, Indonesia, Russia, Eastern Europe, China and a dozen other countries were allowed to suffer persecution and death. For example, don't the 200 000 Orthodox clergy killed in Russia count?


48 posted on 02/26/2007 10:52:52 PM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: LadyDoc; Alex Murphy

"I was always amazed at American Christians, who were good people, nevertheless assumed that for some reason they would be spared the test,"

The question is not whether christians will undergo persecution, the scriptures are clear that in this life we will,; the question is whether christians will go through the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath when He pours His judgments out on the earth.


49 posted on 02/27/2007 4:05:35 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: MHGinTN

"2:6 And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time. [What restrains him from his true character being revealed is the presence of the Bride, and what allows him to break loose -he is on the scene in that he has made deals with the nations, but he has not yet broken loose to be revealed in his reign of terror- to break loose is the whisking away of the Bride by the Bride Groom]"

My interpretation of what restrains him, the desolator, is that we will know what will happen at the 6th trump, 6th vial and 6th seal. We know he comes pretending to be Christ and will not be deceived during the great apostasy - we have enough oil in our lamps and wait for the Bridegroom.


50 posted on 02/27/2007 4:14:10 AM PST by Ping-Pong
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