Posted on 03/01/2007 9:06:23 PM PST by Alex Murphy
Dear P-Marlowe,
"'When asked if he was a Christian, Clark said he was a Catholic'
"I guess that means no."
Perhaps that was the interpretation of the Salvation Army fellow speaking to the Catholic employee.
However, that likely isn't what the Catholic employee meant by his words.
If someone asked me whether I'm a Christian, I might answer with as short an answer as, "I'm a Catholic."
The long version (which I'd be intending fully with the short answer) would be, "Of course I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic."
An even longer version might be, "Of course I'm a Christian, after all, I'm a Catholic, a member of the True Church of Christ, the Church with the fullness of faith of Jesus Christ, apart from which there is no salvation."
It's quite possible that the Salvation Army guy didn't pick up these meanings, and it would have been incumbent on the Catholic employee to make them clearer as the conversation went on.
However, I suspect that perhaps the Salvation Army fellow might have taken the answer, "I'm a Catholic," as a "No, I'm not a Christian," because the Salvation Army fellow's theology might exclude Catholicism as a legitimate expression of Christianity.
That all being said, I don't think that the Catholic employee's case should even be considered.
If the Salvation Army prefers to promote evangelical Protestants ahead of Catholics, I just don't have any problem with that whatsoever.
sitetest
You guess????
That is kind of a tentative answer to a simply yes or no question, isn't it?
But here's the real question, if you are interviewing me for a job. Do you consider me to be a Christian?
The interviewer simply asked Mr. Clark if he was a Christian. He did not say "yes". Therefore, he should not have gotten the promotion.
Having attended seminary with many Salvation Army adherents at Asbury Seminary, a methodistic seminary in central Kentucky near Lexington, I can authoritatively state that the Salvation Army, in terms of their religion, is a separate, evangelical, methodistic denomination. It is a matter of history that the Salvation Army is out of the traditional methodist movement.
However one might desire to understand this is of no significance. We might like to view the SA as a charitable organization. It is but it isn't solely that. We might like to view it as one of many local, social service agencies. It performs in that capacity, but only because of proximate interests.
The SA is a conservative, evangelical, protestant Christian movement.
If a conservative, evangelical protestant Christian wants to know if you are a "Christian," he is actually trying to be pretty broad-minded. He doesn't want to hear that you are episcopalian, presbyterian, assemblies of God, OR....CATHOLIC.
He wants to hear: "Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ."
Others can kick at that all they want, but in doing so, they simply highlight their inadequate understanding of conservative, evangelical Christian denominations.
If the priest asks me, "Are you Catholic?" he doesn't accept Episcopal as an answer.
There is a tacit implication there that perhaps you think that only Catholics are Christians or that everyone who claims to be a Catholic is therefore a Christian.
Is Nancy Pelosi a "Christian"? She is a Catholic in good standing, is she not? Is everyone who claims the title of "Catholic" a Christian?
A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ. Do all Catholics follow the teachings of Christ? Are all Catholics saved?
Again, sitetest, you just failed the interview. Someone else will be getting the promotion.
"Yes, I'm a practicing Catholic."
"Catholic" presupposes "Christian" like "triangle" presupposes "polygon". There are no triangles that aren't polygons, and there are no (observant, faithful, believing) Catholics who aren't Christians.
That's a matter of controversy.
See #43.
It might presuppose anything you want, but it ignores the tradition of the person with whom this man was conversing.
It would be similar to a priest hiring a secretary for the parish and asking if she was a Catholic and the interviewee responded by saying: "I'm a Christian". Would anyone be surprised if she were turned down for the job?
The simple fact of the matter is that Mr. Clark is suing the Salvation Army because they didn't like his parochial response to a broad non-denominational question. He failed the interview and is now blaming the interviewer. In light of his litigious attitude, I would have to question whether or not he would have been telling the truth if he had said yes.
Every practicing Catholic recites (prays, if you prefer) the Nicene Creed at least every Sunday.
Therefore every practicing Catholic professes with his lips (at the very least) belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and incarnate God in front of witnesses at least once a week.
And that's the absolute bare minimum. Saying "I'm a practicing Catholic" therefore automatically implies "I believe in the Nicene Creed" which implies "I believe in Jesus Christ as savior and God".
Why couldn't you just say "yes" and leave it at that?
It's not remotely similar. "Catholic" is more specific than "Christian". Mr. Clark's situation is the reverse.
That having been said, he shouldn't have been working for a Protestant church in the first place.
Because I am not ashamed of my Catholicism. It is not an afterthought, nor is it an accessory.
That simply is not the point.
If my appalachian hillybilly relatives ask me if I'll bring some RCs and Moonpies home in a poke, I either know their language or I don't.
This guy had worked there at SA for a while and refused to speak their language. The correct answer was "Yes, I'm a Christian."
The Salvation Army is a charity that operates as an evangelical effort of Christians.
The Salvation Army is a church denomination, just as Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc., that operates charity works.
"Saying "I'm a practicing Catholic" therefore automatically implies "I believe in the Nicene Creed" which implies "I believe in Jesus Christ as savior and God"."
Maybe you know that but the interviewer might not know that, and being or saying you are "Catholic" does not automatically make you a christian to someone who has no knowledge of Roman Catholic doctrine. Are you a christian is just a simple way of asking are you trusting Christ for your salvation? The interviewer does not want to ask nor need to ask to be instructed in all the nuances of other denominations or faith systems. The candidate may not have gone to confession in over a year and not know whether he is still saved but has gone to mass a couple of times in the year so considers himself a Catholic.
I believe I've had what (self-described) "Born-again Christians" call a "born-again experience".
However, that isn't what I call it, because I think John 3 refers to baptism*. I call it "conversion of heart".
*There's an ambiguity in the Greek anyway; what people translate "born again" can just as easily be translated "born from above".
Dear P-Marlowe,
"There is a tacit implication there that perhaps you think that only Catholics are Christians or that everyone who claims to be a Catholic is therefore a Christian."
I'd say that I agree with the Catholic Church that the fullness of Christian faith is found only within the Catholic Church, and that all who are saved are in some way connected to or part of the Catholic Church.
I'd also say that anyone who CLAIMS to be a Catholic is also CLAIMING to be a Christian.
The deeper question for Ms. Pelosi is whether or not she is a Catholic at all. The Church doesn't ordinarily pronounce on the putative Catholicism of individual Catholics, especially laypersons, and thus, we're not going to find any official statement to that effect.
However, I think that based on her beliefs and politics, it's reasonable to say that her Catholicism is deeply flawed, and may even be perhaps abandoned.
"Is everyone who claims the title of 'Catholic' a Christian?"
Everyone who claims the title Catholic is also claiming the title Christian. Whether or not either reflects reality is beyond my own capacity to judge.
However, we ordinarily count as Christian those persons who have been validly baptized and who have not formally apostasized from Christian belief.
"A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ."
I know plenty of folks who claim to be Christian who seem more like pagans to me. Yet, their final judgment is God's.
"Do all Catholics follow the teachings of Christ? Are all Catholics saved?"
It depends on what you're asking. Here are a few possible questions and answers:
"Do all those who have been baptized into the Catholic Church follow the teachings of Christ?"
It doesn't look that way to me.
"Do all those who have been baptized into the Catholic Church go to Heaven?"
I don't think so, as I believe that there are at least some folks who die in mortal sin.
But, I could easily ask these questions:
"Are all those who are validly baptized Christians?"
The answer to this is yes, unless one has formally apostasized from Christian belief. Even then, there is an ontological difference between an unbaptized person and an apostate Christian.
Then, we could ask:
"Do all validly baptized Christians follow the teachings of Christ?"
And my answer again would be: It doesn't look that way to me.
Then,
"Do all validly baptized Christians go to Heaven?"
And again, I'd say, I don't think so, as I believe that there are at least some baptized persons who die in mortal sin.
sitetest
You are 100% correct.
And they are pretty open-minded. No one is commenting on the fact that they'd already employed the man for 2 years. This proves they are not bigots.
He was asking to step up into a position more at the core of their mission, and they wanted specifically to know that he would represent their basic underlying interest....faith in Jesus Christ.
He failed to reassure them of that, and they didn't select him.
That is kind of a tentative answer to a simply yes or no question, isn't it?
It's not a tentative answer. It's simply meant to convey my ambivalence to what is an ambiguous question. "Are you a Christian" is not necessarily a simple yes or no answer, though it may be to you. Why? Because the word "Christian" is often used to mean "non-Catholic".
For instance, a "Christian Bookshop" is 100% of the time, in my experience, a non-Catholic bookshop. It does not sell Catholic literature though it may contain some material which is in agreement with Catholic teaching. Catholic bookshops, on the other hand, identify themselves as such and never, in my experience, use the word "Christian".
That doesn't mean that we don't consider ourselves to be Christians, however. It's simply an example of how these two terms have come to be used in the everyday vernacular and why they often mean different things to different people. I think Mr. Clark should be cut some slack for responding that he was a "Catholic".
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