Posted on 03/09/2007 3:53:04 PM PST by Terriergal
Oh BTW it helps to read the entire article then one would know what's a quote and what's a post. :>)
"Thank God for Rick Warren threads."
If it wasn't for that devil Rick look at the cottage industry of critics that would not be in existence. All of the gossipers would have to start looking at family, friends and neighbors again.
Warren is a very controversial figure and I do not agree with many of his methods. My cousin and his wife attended Saddleback for a brief time.
If someone actually chooses a church because of the shape of the room or the lighting, then I would not want that person being a regular member of my church. His concern over making visitors comfortable makes me uncomfortable.
If a non-Christian comes to your church, you want to make them feel welcome, but you sure don't want to make them "comfortable." They need to be shaking in their pew from the fear of God and if they vow never to return after the message, then the message was just as effective as if they'd fallen on their knees and surrendered to God.
Only solid born again Christians should be feeling "comfortable" in a church service. Wolves need to feel out of place among the sheep. If they feel at home, then they are free to devour the sheep at their leisure.
If this is an example of the tripe you find in "The Purpose Driven Church", then it is a book to be avoided. Any pastor that follows this kind of silly advice thinking he can magically grow his church by using a professional interior decorator needs to surrender the pulpit to someone who knows that it is the Word of God which brings people to faith and not the wallpaper.
The importance of an "enviromental impact study" came home to my church when we had two families visit in consecutive weeks. One was a real estate agent and the other a plumbing contractor. The fathers walked through the facilities to see how we maintained our stewardship of them as an indication of how we would look at the most important treasures that God had given them to be stewards of; their children.
They both pointed out mold up in the eaves that had been there for years, poor flourescent lighting in the sunday school classes, the smell of mold in the rug in the nursery and the poor lighting in the sanctuary that was not conducive to following along in the scriptures, poor lighting in the entry way and the faded paint in the fellowship hall. Both joined the church before any work was done but we realized from their imput that we were taking the facilities for granted for our comfort and convenience rather than thinking of them as as much a witness to our God as our piety. So often we will accept a "well they tried" atmosphere in worship instead of excellence, something we would never accept in our occupations or from our kids or in our home, but in church, well, that's what God has given us as if we expected Him to come and paint the hallway walls.
His emphasis was not on excellence, but on appearances. Things like this really stand out as not only trite, but just plain secular:
"Personal space is highly valued in our society. This is why box seats are prized at stadiums. If people are forced to sit too close to each other, they get very uncomfortable. There should be at least 18 inches between people if you're using chairs and 21 inches between people if you're using pews."
To me Warren has turned into a big windbag. Maybe if he lost 50 pounds and got rid of that silly goatee, he might be taken a little more seriously. But then that would be appealing to people's senses. Obviously he doesn't think that having a trim fit pastor who is a good steward of the body he was given, is as important as having a good wireless microphone so that he can dance around the stage and show off his spare tires and keep the attention of people who would prefer to fall asleep in their comfortable pews.
no problem. :-)
My family, friends and neighbors don't preach publicly. Well at least most of them. I've called my brother in law on the carpet once, too. But he's grown up since then and changed his attitude, and is now a non-compromising preacher.
Unlike Rick Warren.
I did -- I just forgot that that line was from it.
What'd you think of Saddleback?
People will also have to stop their magical thinking that if they build a building, it will fill up with people. This may work for certain species of birds. But it didn't work for the cargo cultists of the South Pacific trying to lure the cargo-laden W.W. II aircraft back to their island and it won't work for them. If a congregation renting space from [our church] is larger than [our church's] congregation, then this gives the lie to the assertion that the size of the present building is what is limiting the size of the ___________ congregation.The original scheme was voted down by the church membership; the most common reason voting no was "we'd like a new building, but not financed in this way". So the people who were pushing the first scheme started pushing it again but with slight changes. When asked by a board member why they were trying to do what the membership had voted against, they replied "Oh, that was for doing it this way; we're going to do it that way," the difference being that between a Lincoln and a Cadallic.
Besides, when there are churches in Africa and elsewhere bursting at the seams in horribly primitive buildings or meeting in illegal home churches in China at the risk of their freedom and lives, saying that we can’t expect our pews to be packed because people won't want to sit that close is saying that something other than Christian conversion and fellowship is controlling what's going on at [our church].
And the people who won't come because a place is crowded and because they won't want to sit close to others they may not know well are not the people who are going to be interested in giving because they're not interested in belonging. People who have to be coaxed in by soft seats for their butts, pleasant music for their ears, and a “feeling of flow" for them to mistake for the Spirit's leading, aren't interested in a church; they're interested in a church experience. They aren't interested in being spiritual but in feeling spiritual. The latter is a lot easier and less expensive. And isn't that just more cost-effective? For them, at least?
When some churches are happy just to have benches without backs and a corrugated tin roof for their meeting place, it's unconscionable for a church here in the States to claim their society can't support itself or grow without being able to extract money in a way forbidden by church rules from a "resource" which they themselves did nothing to create and to which they have no corporate title. "Hey, you guys over there in Kenya with your dirt floor and open-air air-conditioning, don't you wish your property happened to have become valuable real estate like ours did so you can "utilize" it and not have to depend on people carting in a sack of maize or some scrawny chickens or something else voluntary and, hence, something that cannot be counted upon to bring in the income no matter what? We're just so PUMPED over the way God has so richly provided for our tiny congregation [about 80-100] to have all the possible creature comforts we could want and not have to worry about how to pay for it! Is this Providence or what! Oh, and if our scheme goes through, we'll increase our level of "sacrificial giving" to the [denomination's] World Mission so you can rejoice with us."
I agree you should keep up the place if financially plausible. It shouldn't look shabby. But this is different than having a hot new A/V system, entertainment, and soft-pedaled message to coordinate with the soft cushy chairs.
By far it is the message which cannot be compromised. To hear someone who continually compromises the message (e.g. Warren, even while saying he's not compromising) then tell us these things are so important, is laughable.
It's Christianoid feng shui!
WHAT!?! A Rick Warren thread and I'm not invited!
I did -- I just forgot that that line was from it
No Problem :>)
YBPDLNPL Ping
In fairness to SB, it isn't the only modern church which many members do not carry a Bible--or read or believe...
**Yeah, you know, worship has to be comfy!**
NOT!
These people need to get on their knees!
I can understand if Warren was a false prophet, or a heretic but he is simply a minister that leads people to Christ in a different way than you do. Give it a rest already.
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