Posted on 03/18/2007 6:29:20 AM PDT by markomalley
In order to continue His work on earth and lead all peoples to eternal salvation, Jesus established one visible and hierarchical Church. It is very clear from the continual preparation of the Jewish people in the Old Testament and then with the precise act of Jesus in Cesarea Philippi, that God willed to found one Church as a visible, hierarchical, living, and continuing authority, to teach, govern, and sanctify in his name. It is no less clear that Jesus appointed the Apostle Simon the fisherman as the visible head of His Church. Even as He conferred the authority, Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter; i.e., “rock.” The name “Peter” had never existed prior to this divine event in Cesarea Philippi.
Trials and tribulations will always be a part of the Church because it is not merely a human entity. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and Satan will continue to attack it until the Second Coming. Perhaps history will judge our age as presenting the most formidable challenges the Catholic Church has had to face, although it is true that there have been other dramatic moments in the history of the Church.
The Catholic Church is the only institution in human history that has continually survived its own problems and failures. As G.K. Chesterton once said, this is true, "because it has a God Who knew His way out of the grave." Jesus assures us of His continual presence and protection: "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18).
Rather than becoming discouraged, angry, or even rebellious during a difficult time of trial, we must stand fast through prayer and fidelity. We must always pray for our Church, and always trust that God will deliver us from all evil.
Unity in the Catholic Church is damaged when Catholics, be they clergy or lay people, deviate from the deposit of faith, either through an unhealthy attachment to the past or a detrimental deviation, in the name of progress, from authentic Church teaching and discipline. Both postures tear away at the garment of unity.
Every member of the Church is obligated to obey every teaching of the Church. Matters regarding faith, morals and discipline are not subject to personal interpretation.
We live in a moment of history when many openly defy the authority of the pope. We need to persevere, at times under very difficult circumstances, in the exciting adventure of fidelity. With God's help and the maternal protection of Mary, the Mother of the Church, at the end of our earthly existence we can repeat the sounding words of St. Paul: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tm 3:7).
Many years ago when I was in high school and college, I too did a lot of discussing and debating. I too had many religious opinions, many of which were erroneous and unfounded. I debated other issues than the hot-button issues of today; nevertheless, I too struggled with obedience or disobedience to the pope. Thankfully, through the patient and loving guidance of a college professor who became a true life-long friend, I was able to openly search for the truth through deep prayer and sincere study, and I found it. I know that this truth is Jesus and all that His Catholic Church teaches. I love this truth very much and I will never leave it behind again, even if I have to stand alone with the pope, whoever he may be.
To leave behind the relativism that Cardinal Ratzinger spoke about before his election as Pope Benedict XVI, and fully embrace truth and charity, has been the most exciting and liberating event of my entire life. So, I truly do understand all of the debate, all of the discussion, and even all of the anger. I have been there, and I have left all of that behind only to find profound joy, peace and freedom in the Church that I have given my entire life to.
The only solution for the problems that we face as a Church in America is to get back to basics and rediscover the same Jesus that Peter encountered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:17). We must begin again by truly living as disciples of the Lord and living the Gospels with renewed authenticity. True Christianity will set us free.
The book mentioned, David Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia, as the primary source of the figure of "33,000" or "20,000" or similar figures we Catholics talk about seems to define "denomination" in a slightly unorthodox fashion (no pun intended).
Denomination is defined as an organization within a single country. This means that if the Roman Catholic church is in 234 countries, it would have a at least 234 denominations. Conversely, To say the Roman Catholic church has 239 denominations in 234 countries, is a conclusion that seriously misreads the data. On the other hand, the fact that there are 8848 denominations in the Protestant column, does not mean there are 8848 Protestant denominations as Catholics suggest. If you divide 8848 by the 237 countries, you come up with a figure of only actual 37 denominations in 237 countries.
I don't quite understand the logic here, especially the last sentence, but that's ok. The tables here are the useful part, and give us a fair idea of the true number of denominations, in common parlance.
Note, the divisions in "Roman Catholic" are the different "rites", so this is not a "denominational" division in the theological sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of the Church knows this.
Similarly for the Orthodox Church. (I imagine, but perhaps an Orthodox adherant can shed some light on it further).
However, if we count the actual names underneath the tables called, "Anglican", "Protestant", and "Independent" (and ignore those under the "Marginal" table), we come to a grand total of 242 separate and distinct "denominations" (at least what we, in theology would call "denominations".)
If we delete the "Independent" (if someone protests, again no pun intended, that the "Independent" denominations aren't really PROTESTANT denominations), then we are still left with 42 separate and distinct denominations.
42 denominations, all claiming to have the whole truth (obviously, or else why separate from the others?) 42 all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.
The message here is clear: Whether the number is 30,000 or 42, there STILL exists a clear distinction between churches, (Catholic included), ALL of which claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
So the ultimate question still remains: Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? If not, then a Christian's task is clear: He must choose ONE of those churches in the list above, and ALSO MUST believe the rest are, at least, not fully true. If not, then the Christian is supporting the notion that the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion. There's no getting around that.
Let's not loose sight of the forest because of the trees. It's really irrelevant if there are 30,000 Protestant denominations or 42, or even only 2. As long as there are at least TWO that are CLEARLY different in their DOCTRINE, then the point above is valid.
I am a Christian plain and simple, i.e. I do not choose from that or any list.
My point was hyperbole doesn't win arguments.
Amazing how some people think God is like some moron that can be legally locked up in some Bylaws or Corporate Charter(501c) or Catechism of rules men put upon men, and God himself.. If everyone saw things exactely the same then why 4 Gospels?.. The Holy Spirit is alive and well not hampered in any way by the rules of men..
Paul wrote a whole screed to the Galatians about legal religious lawyers.. to watch out for them.. All those seeking God may have something beneficial to share.. but not the whole vision.. all see thru a glass darkly..
"God made us able ministers of a new covenant; not of letter, but of Spirit (PNEUMOS). For the letter [the literal] kills, but the Spirit (PNEUMOS) makes alive." -2 Corinthians 3:6 (Interlinear Bible)
But then we run into the 2 Pe 1:20 issue.
To those that deal with the Holy Spirit prophecy happens commonly..
What is the Holy Spirit telling YOU?...
That is a lead-off to the most overused phrase in modern evangelical Christianity. "God told me to tell you..."
With the natural come-back "If He told you...He would have told me too!"
Seriously, I am moved to walk in love always. As God is love (cf 1 Jn 4:8). I am moved to walk in light always, because God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (cf 1 Jn 1:5). As to more specific communication, well, I ain't Pat Robertson. When a still, small voice whispers in my ear, it's a private matter.
Maybe you would care to answer your own question...
I have no problem with that...
[... Maybe you would care to answer your own question...]
THAT... He will be as REAL to me as I am with Him....
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. – 2 Peter 1:16-21
There are two types of prophesy. One type reveals what will happen in the future, the other reveals a message for the here and now. But in either case, the prophesy must be from God – not from the mind of the mortal man.
Moreover, we Christians are not like those who lived before Christ was Resurrected. He has given us the Holy Spirit to lead us into Truth. We only need to ask.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. – John 15:4
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Gal 2:20
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3
Thus when we read a passage – like the one we are discussing, Revelation 2 and 3 – we ought to be asking ourselves:
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. – John 17:16-17
One final point: Spiritual revelation is like a diamond with seven facets. Depending on which facet one is facing, he might see something a bit differently. But it is the same diamond and the same Light. The Holy Spirit leads each of us, individually and personally. We should never expect to be a “cookie cutter” copy of the next guy in our Spiritual discernment.
Any hoot, that’s my two cents…
After reading your post, I feel like I've ingested a homily at Church! Thanks for your post, Girl.
Surely God can and does delegate tasks.. and when we really appear to be serious they go to God(in some aspect) with requests and/or problems, and other "things".. Could also answer where dreams come from(an Angel task).. since dreams appear, to me, to be something to keep our spirits busy while our bodies sleep..
Dreams appear to me to be a spiritual thing.. Could be what happens to Us(or even some of us) when our bodies die.. That is... we enter into some kind of dream existence.. that would NOT seem Weird to us since we did it(dream) all our lives while on this planet.. In my dreams on this planet it is almost like the dream could last for a few minutes or hours and the timeing seems the same.. no matter all thats gone on in the dream.. Like time is elastic.. Yeah thats more accurate to me... elastic time..
When posting on this Religion Forum, I try diligently to make the distinction between understanding to which I am led by the indwelling Spirit – and my own musings – so there will be no confusion as to the weight I give certain observations.
In post 80, for instance, that the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are metaphors for different assemblies of Christians and individual Christians – is a leaning I have in the indwelling Spirit. However, the observation that that the seven candlesticks are separate and not a single work of seven lamps like the Menorah is my own musing on the subject.
The musing is rooted in the observation that Jesus, since His ascension, usually speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, but spoke personally to Paul on the road to Damascus and in Revelation, to the Apostle John. God never changes (Mal 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, etc.) – but we do. And a thing not said is as curious to me as a thing said.
The great insight of Relativity (special and general) is that time is geometric. A week may elapse near a black hole while a half century elapses on earth, etc. That is because of the equivalency principle.
If you were traveling at the speed of light, for you no time would elapse (null path) - though people observing you would sense time passing.
Nevertheless there are two involuntary (IMHO) mindsets concerning time. One sees a three dimensional space evolving over time. The other sees time as a dimension, one of four that we perceive. The latter is Relativity. I do not know of any Physicists who call time "elastic."
Concerning angels, I'm confident they remain as busy as ever. But whether we have angels assigned to us, individually, I have no leaning at all in the Spirit.
But it seems to me that would be unnecessary, since as long as we abide in Christ and He abides in us - we are demon-proof, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7
The metaphor to which you speak is absolutely applicable, in my opinion. While I am confident that the words were applicable to those particular churches in that time, I am also confident that there were other cities with other churches that could have been selected had they been appropriate for the long-term understanding and applicability of the narrative (particularly to ignorant, egotistical westerners, 2 millennia after the document was written). But, the key thing I want you to note was that John was directed to write these things not to churches outside of his area, but to churches that were in his immediate locality.
Also you are correct that there are 7 candlesticks, not 7 branches of a menorah. However, what lights the fire on each candlestick? If you ever go to a Catholic Easter Vigil with some of your relatives, that metaphor becomes strikingly clear for the understanding.
I agree that God works within us to will and do of His good pleasure; however, God set among us a hierarchy that is Biblically defined. That does not reduce God's ability to work with us, but I have noted that people are incredibly stupid and head strong. As I have observed on other threads, the symbol for the bishop is the crozier. That is true both in the east and the west. In the west, at least, the crozier is what we typically associate with a shepherd's crook. There is a hook on one end and a staff on the other. If you've ever seen a shepherd in the old country use that shepherd's crook, there is a very applicable analogy that applies to the shepherds of men, as well.
Just something to consider.
God's blessings to you!
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them,
Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:53-63
I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. – John 10:12-18
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. – 1 Peter 5:1-4
Well, with all due respect to you, I absolutely agree. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ (John 10). The Chief Shepherd is Jesus Christ (1 Pet 5). However, he also gave shepherds unto the Church (Eph 4:11):
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
Note: the word 'pastors' in the above word is the same word as is used for shepherd, poimen (Strong's 4166), defined as 'a herdsman, esp. a shepherd.'
Peter here is passing on the responsibility he received directly from the Lord. But the Lord’s commission to Peter came with the important qualification which He repeated three – count ‘em – three times, that he must love Jesus absolutely to be qualified to feed His sheep:
That is a VERY Catholic response you have provided there (said in complete seriousness). Peter DID pass on that responsibility he received directly from the Lord. That is a major mark of the Catholic Church: apostolicity. That is how the responsibilities are passed down in succession. (As a collateral point, do you know what one of the Pope's titles is? 'Servant of the servants of the Lord.'). This is not to say that all Catholic pastors and all Catholic bishops live up to their responsiblities, but definitely service to the flock and being 'an ensample' to the flock is the principle responsibility.
Here is the leaning I have in the Spirit (not a musing): Jesus Christ is our food and our drink, we Christians must feed on Him, not figuratively speaking but really, in Spirit and in Truth.
Praise God! You see the truth of the matter! But it is not only in Spirit (and in Truth), it is literally. He is the Bread of Life and we must be nourished on Him, just as the tribes of Israel were nourished on the manna in the desert (a prefiguring of Christ, btw).
STUNNING INPUTS! I am truly floored (in a good way!). May the Holy Spirit continue to work in you!
And here am I - a Christian, plain and simple.
May God bless you both, always.
In this case, it's one and the same, AG. Our differences were not touched by this. :)
And here am I - a Christian, plain and simple
There is nothing plain and simple about you AG. What you said was both orthodox (true) and catholic (universal), and therefore Christian.
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