Posted on 04/01/2007 12:47:35 PM PDT by siunevada
Poverty, the bad example of some Catholics, bad initial Catechesis that allowed the old beliefs to be assimilated into Catholicism, and the bad example of Liberation Theologians.
Communism is the anti-Catholicism.
Since Captain Obvious is not available today, I will try to answer this rhetorical question.
Catholicism today works by example, not by coercion or intimidation.
Murder, intimidation and coercion are the most effective tools today to achieve any sort of effect, positive or otherwise. It is the worldwide standard tool.
Q.E.D.
Vatican II.
That was when we dropped the personal ethics component of Catholicism and decided that all moral problems were the result of not enough social workers and not enough government handouts.
When Italy had been Catholic for about 500 years, it was overrun by barbarians and sank into the dark ages.
Maybe the question should be: How much worse would the countries be if they weren't Catholic?
Maybe you should re-check your history :)
ClaireSolt is a retired historian. Check the profile page if you want to see for yourself.
Actually, one of the differences between Catholicism and other religions in the New World is that the Church catechized and baptized the indigenous peoples, and then Spaniards married them. The English did not; furthermore, there weren't a lot of them indigenous peoples in the US, compared to the number of tribal peoples in Latin America, so the Indian population would probably never have had the weight that it did in Latin American.
The result was that the Church had to deal with a large number of very primitive indigenous populations throughout Latin America. This meant not only merely preaching the Gospel, but in many ways adapting these people to the modern cultures that had grown up around them.
I think, had the changes of the '60s and '70s not occurred, we'd be seeing a very different Latin America. For one thing, prior to VatII, the urban wealthy were being brought by movements like Opus Dei and others to realize their social responsibility to educate and aid - but once the Communists got in, that was one of the first groups they attacked. And they have continued to do so since then. I always think of the poor woman who was buried alive by Communist guerrillas in the early 2000's (I don't reacll the date)- she was from a wealthy family but had spent most of her time starting schools for poor, mostly Indian children, etc. And the "revolutionaries" couldn't stand that. The influence of Marxism, probably by way of Mexico or as a hangover from the "revolutionary" movements of the 1920s, revived once the Church weakened after Vatican II, and the Catholic Church and good Catholics were one of its prime targets.
Europe after the fall of Rome was essentially in the same condition. Rome was gone and the barbarian peoples (many of whom, btw, were not orthodox Catholics, but Arians) were way more numerous than the cultivated remainder from Rome. In Western Europe, there was an enormous amount of Catholic intellectual activity in Spain, particularly Sevilla, but that all stopped dead with the Muslim invasions.
As for personal piety, Latin Americans used to be very good at it, if a lot more dramatic than most North Americans like. It wasn't easy, and they weren't educated people who had a lot of resources. But once Vatican II killed personal piety, killed things like the necessity for Confession, the need to baptize your children, the importance of marrying in the Church, etc., the smoking wick was quenched. Being a well instructed Catholic doesn't necessarily mean you will be living a good life - but it does mean you'll always know you're doing wrong, and therefore you know that you should repent and get your life straightened up. Some people did, some people didn't; but everybody knew the message.
That was all swept away with the "social gospel" promulgated after Vatican II. Suddenly the poor were no longer moral beings with individual responsibilities before the Lord, but simply "the poor," a project for social workers and "revolutionaries." And now we're seeing the result of that.
Satan had a stranglehold on the place before 1492!
The Church put an end to the human sacrifice and cannibalism being practiced by the natives.
Our Lady at Guadalupe blessed the people by her presence there crushing the serpent!
All very very positive!
VIVA CRISTO REY!
Bulls-eye.
Then I must have learned a very wrong version of history. Mine says less than 100 years between Constantine legalizing Christianity in 315 and the sacking of Rome in 409. Maybe ClaireSolt can teach me the correct version.
Good post!
I will tell you why: because Catholicism (not Catholics) doesn't really believe in private property. Their Canon law recognizes it, but that is not put into practice.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:
Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
I have noticed that very frequently, even well into the early 20th century, the usual signatures of brides, grooms, parents, godparents, etc. are missing from the parish registers. The priest typically wrote down the names of those in attendance, but noted that they were unable to sign their own names. I found it shocking to see the amount of illiteracy that was typical in French Canadian society. Contemporary records among my own English and New England ancestors show a far higher rate of literacy.
This seems to me to be a failure on the part of the Church. It had a major influence on every facet of Québecois culture and society, and it really should have done a better job of educating the peasants.
-ccm
You wrote:
"Then I must have learned a very wrong version of history."
No.
"Mine says less than 100 years between Constantine legalizing Christianity in 315 and the sacking of Rome in 409. Maybe ClaireSolt can teach me the correct version."
ClaireSolt compressed three things into one time: 1) "When Italy had been Catholic for about 500 years"...2) "it was overrun by barbarians"...3) "and sank into the dark ages."
I don't think ClaireSolt was shooting for exact years or tried to issue all the qualifiers that would otherwise be necessary. Don't forget that much of Italy was Catholic BEFORE Constantine legalized the faith; that the Visigoth sacking of Rome was NOT the same thing as barbarians overrunning Italy either; that the Dark Ages came well after the fall of Rome on August 24, 410 (not 409 as you mistakenly believe), or even the deposition of the last Roman emperor of the west in 476.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.