Posted on 04/21/2007 6:18:02 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Let me explain a little deeper. The characteristics and the behaviors that that the ten commandments DEFINE fall outside of any covenant. These characteristics and behaviors were codified and incorporated into the covenants. They would exist even if no covenants were ever struck.
Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, and He did fulfill it. He also came to set us free from the law. Paul, in Romans clearly establishes that we died to the law, and uses the tenth commandment as his example.
"Law" is used in many contexts in the new testament. Much of the time when Paul is discussing the "law" he is referring to the manmade body of rules and regulations that were invented under the Jewish religious system. Other times he is talking about following the laws of God for salvation instead of accepting the sacrifice of Christ.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
In the verses above, Paul is saying that allowing the love of Christ to live in and through us WILL conform us to God's law. The commandments he listed ARE the written definition of what Godly love toward others should APPEAR in your physical and spiritual life as.
Those who cling to the ten commandments do so in ignorance of New Testament commandments.
The purpose of the ten commandments is to show us our sin. When our live is continually in violation of the commandments, then we know we are not allowing the spirit of God to work in and through us:
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
In other words, Paul would not have recognized that he had been committing the sin of coveting unless he had been instructed that coveting was indeed a sin. The ten commandments are the benchmark, the standard, the example, the apex of Christian morality.
You are twisting scripture for your own purposes. In Romans, when Paul was speaking of our freedom from the law, he clearly referenced God’s law, not man’s.
Nonsense. In chapter 7 he references two types of law:
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul DELIGHTS in the law of God. However, there is another "law", the law of his flesh, which brings him into captivity to sin. This is what Christians are freed from when they follow God's spiritual laws, embodied by the ten commandments.
"..., I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."" Romans 7:7
The verse, “You shall not covet” is the tenth commandment. Paul describes this verse as an example of “the law”. In Romans 7:6, Paul says, “we have been delivered from the law.” Another passage that shows the 10 commandments are obsolete begins in Hebrews 8:13;
In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;” Hebrews 8:13 – 9:14.
In his description of the first covenant, which the author just described as obsolete, are the tablets of the covenant. The 10 Commandments were the tablets of the first covenant, which is not obsolete.
The law was a tutor to lead us sinners to Christ, but Galatians 3:24-25 says,
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
It goes on to say that those who want to be under the law are under a curse.
Deu 5:1 ¶ And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.
Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
NOT WITH OUR FATHERS! There it is.
It is law of sin which causes our flesh to sin in response to the Old Testament commandments. Paul says that be being set free from the OT law, the law of sin is disarmed.
Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
It is the New Testament commands which bring us freedom. In 1 John 3:34, it says,
"And THIS is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Being under the law results in death by rightly condemning us. The early church came to this conclusion when (in Acts) they ruled that the Gentile church wouldn’t be shackled under the law. If we’re still under the law, then the early church was wrong in their ruling. I’ll go with the early church.
He didn't make the old COVENANT with their fathers and that's what being referenced here. The COVENANT. But as the article demonstrates, there is ample evidence that the violation of the laws as codified by the ten commandments were sins before the covenant was ratified.
Do yo also see two types of sin?
Yes you are...You posted yourself that the requirement is to sell everything you have and give it to the poor...That is just as large and important a requirement than 'thou shall not kill'...If you don't sell everything, you can't have eternal life...
And in Mat. it says if you don't visit people in prison, you won't have eternal life...
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Reasonable question...The same one you have???
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
There's the answer...This is a little bit of prophecy...There's NOTHING you can do to get or earn salvation...It is God's gift to you (us)...But it won't be fully revealed until the Apostle Paul reveals the 'mystery' of the church...
I have always thought that Jesus requires obedience as a requirement for salvation:
He did...Obedience to the Law AND Faith in Him...It's there in the scripture...And when you see that in the bible, it is spoken to the Jews (for the most part)...Salvation is of the Jews...
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But then what does the Apostle Paul say about obedience???
Paul says we must be obedient to the 'Faith', not the law...But then Paul was teaching salvation to Gentiles, not the Jews...And you'll see in the biblical context, obedience to the faith is believing in Jesus Christ and trusting Him as your Savior...
Remember that thru the Law is the knowledge of sin...But Paul says we are not justified by the Law...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
That is Jesus' righteousness...So do we obey the Law or obey the rightousness of Christ...And what is the rightousness of Christ??? That He was sinless and gave his sinlessness to us sinners free of charge...
You'll notice that many references to obedience shows that obedience is to the 'faith'...Faith in Jesus Christ, not the Law...And then Paul says,
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Paul knew that Jesus taught salvation by faith AND works...And although Paul knew it, it wasn't given to him by Jesus to teach that to the Gentiles...
Hardly. Jesus gave us a new commandment in John 13:34, because the old commandments were insufficient for the new creation, the church.
Our new covenant has new commandments.
• 1 Cor 7 gives us a new "commandment of the Lord", dealing with divorce that are distinctly different from the Old Testament law dealing with divorce.
• 1 Cor 14:37 presents a new "commandment of the Lord" dealing with how the church should function when gathered together.
• Acts 17:30 presents a new command when it says, “.. These times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent...” (again proving the Ten Commandments weren't directed at all men.)
• 1 John 3:22 says “This is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. The first part is obviously a commandment of the new covenant.
• Jesus calls His command in John 13:34 a “new” commandment. It refers to “one another” to require love within the church, which is a new creation, distinctly different from loving your neighbor. 2 John 5 says, “And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.” The ‘beginning’ doesn’t refer to the law of Moses, but to the beginning of the church.
• Peter, in Acts 15, says, “Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” The law is referred to as a yoke the fathers couldn’t bear, and argues that the Gentile church shouldn’t be similarly burdened. Yet, 1 John 5:3 says of the (new) commandments, “And His commandments are not burdensome.” The old was a yoke and burden, but the new are not. A distinct difference. If not, then Peter wouldn’t have argued to keep the law from the Gentiles in Acts 15.
Galatians says the same thing. “For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage.” The law is “bondage.” There are commandments contained in the old covenant, and commands in the new covenant. Similarity doesn’t imply both are still in effect.
The United States incorporated a large sections of English law, but we are free from English law. Yet we are subject to the spirit of the English laws because they are contained in the U.S. laws. The authority over us now comes from the U.S. laws. We are a new creation, under a new covenant, and new commandments.
The spirit of the OT commands (not the letter) are contained in the NT commands, and we should use the NT commands for guidance.
Let’s read it again.
5:1 ¶ And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.
He then begins to list the Ten Commandments.
I do not follow you. If that is what Jesus taught, is it not true? And if that is what Jesus taught, would Paul teach anything different to the Gentiles?
The COVENANT. The ten commandments were incorporated INTO the COVENANT, the agreement, between the Lord and Israel.
But again, as the article points out, the violation of these COMMANDMENTS were considered sins BEFORE the covenant was ratified. Read the article.
They were not commandments, before they were commanded, therefore not subject to violation. Sin did occur before the Commandments were given and acts which were unrighteous included those mentioned in the commandments.
Here is another interpretation of the same issue from over a century ago.
Verses 4-9. He makes a contrast between sin and the new nature and shows the marks of one who abides in Christ and one who hath not seen Him neither knows Him. "Every one that practiseth sin, practiseth lawlessness; for sin is lawlessness, this is the correct rendering. The definition of sin as "transgression of the law" is misleading and incorrect. Before there ever was a law, sin was in the world (Romans 5:12, etc.); how then can sin be the transgression of the law? It is not sins of which John speaks, but sin, the evil nature of man. Here the apostle regards man as doing nothing else but his own, natural will; he lives as a natural man. He acts independently of God, and, as far as he is concerned, never does anything but his own will. John is, therefore, not speaking. of positive overt acts, but of the natural man's habitual bent and character, his life and nature.
Arno Gaebelein 1861-1942 "THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN" Chap IV
I think we're saying the same thing differently, but I also think that there is biblical evidence that God shared his codified commandments with certain people before Sinai, specifically Abraham. This is another excerpt from the booklet "The New Covenant"
Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today. But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham's obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: "Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws" (NIV).
The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor's Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: "The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham 'kept my requirements [mismarti], my commands [miswotay], my decrees [huqqotay] and my laws [wetorotay]' (v. 5).
"It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: 'Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [mismarto], his decrees [huqqotayw], his laws [mispatayw] and his commands [miswotayw]' . . .
"Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer's ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, 'Abraham obeyed me' (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of 'keeping the law,' the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law" (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).
Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel. However, the symbolic tabernacle or temple ceremonies and rituals and Israel's national administrative laws were not applicable in Abraham's day. Nor are they necessary for individual Christians today, because a physical temple is no longer the center of our worship as it was in the ancient nation of Israel (John 4:19-21; Hebrews 9:9-10).
Thus, Abraham knew a lot more about God's requirements for and definitions of righteous behavior than most religious teachers give him credit for today. It also means that the laws defining righteous attitudes and behavior that were given to Israel were known and practiced by servants of God long before the Sinai Covenant was ever established.
***But again, as the article points out, the violation of these COMMANDMENTS were considered sins BEFORE the covenant was ratified. Read the article.***
Deu 12:8 Ye shall not do after all [the things] that we do here this day, every man whatsoever [is] right in his own eyes.
What about this?
Colossians 2 v 13-16:
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day
What was nailed to the cross?
The law (sin, death and the power of Satan) and it’s power over us...The law no longer can condemn us when we have faith in Christ to remove the power of the law. Christ took onto himself the full punishment of the law for us as the perfect sacrifice. The Pharisees loved to use the law to elevate themselves, proclaiming they kept the law, but lost their inheritence because they relied on this rather than on the promised Messiah. The cross triumphed over all those who relied on the law to save them.
Also, remember here Paul is speaking to Gentiles, not Jews. Gentiles never were subject to Mosaic law which requires the Sabbath to be on Saturday and he is making it clear that this is not something they are held to.
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