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Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption
AirMaria.com ^

Posted on 05/16/2007 1:51:59 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary

Ave Maria!

Recent initiatives in support of the Dogmatic Declaration of Marian Coredemption are springing up like May flowers in this Month of Mary and are the fruit of many years of dialogue and theological discussion organized by the Hierarchy, the Franciscans of the Immaculate, and Vox Popoli Mariae Mediatrici. This movement is supported by a wide range of theologians and lay people, and the initiatives have five main thrusts: Hierarchical, Theological, Popular Apologetical, a Video Series on the internet, and a Lay Petition drive.

Hierarchical:

A symposium was held on May 3rd to the 7th, 2005 in Fatima, Portugal, led by five Cardinals which the Franciscans of the Immaculate helped arrange. The gathering of over fifty bishops from around the world, including five cardinals, resulted in a book written by the nine cardinals listed bellow.

Toppo
Martinez
Gagnon
Estevez
Schonborn
Varkey
Vidal
Spidlik
Trujillo
Mary, Unique Cooperator in the Redemption
Why Mary should be dogmatically declared as Coredeemer
Authored by: Nine Cardinals of the Church and other Major Marian Theologians. Each of the nineteen presentations are printed in the language originally given by the speakers: seven in English, four in Spanish and eight in Italian. It addresses many of the ecumenical concerns raised in the past.

This book along with a petition by over forty Cardinals and Bishops in support of the dogma was presented to Pope Benedict XVI on June 3, 2006, by... His Eminence, Telesphore Cardinal Toppo of Ranchi, India

Theological Symposia:

Here are just some of more than 60 Marian Theologians that have attended past International Coredemption Symposia in England and Fatima, Portugal, between 2000 and 2006:

Calkins
Llamas
Arellano
Manelli
Fehlner
Hnilica
Miravalle
Perotto
Hauke
Settimio
Manelli
Gherardini
Biestro

These symposia resulted in the following 6 books available from Marymedatrix.com with a 7th book on the way:

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005

And, the 8th International Symposium in this series is coming up in July 17-20, 2007 in Fatima, Portugal. See Video

With over 10 Cardinals, 40 Bishops and 60 major Marian Theologians, these events clearly out-weigh the 1996 Czestachowa Commission which came to a negative conclusion but had serious deficiencies and no hierarchy in attendance.

Popular Conference:

Upcoming Marian Coredemption Conference in Greenwood, Indiana, Oct 13, 2007. See Video

Hahn
Miravalle
Fehlner
Burke
Evert
de Souza
Straub

Upcoming Video Series:

Stay tuned to Air Maria for Dr. Miravalle's new Series on Coredemption in June.

Miravalle

Petition Drive:

an initiative by Dr. Mark Miravalle at Vox Popoli for a popular petition to Pope Benedict XVI. Let your voice be heard!!

You can read the letter by Mark Miravalle about how you can submit your petition to the Holy Father and how these Bishops and Cardinals have already done so.

What the pope is saying about Mary

The Saints:

Mary is our Co-redemptrix with Jesus. She gave Jesus his body and suffered with him at the foot of the Cross.

Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace. She gave Jesus to us, and as our Mother she obtains for us all his graces.

Mary is our Advocate who prays to Jesus for us. It is only through the Heart of Mary that we come to the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus.

The papal definition of Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate will bring great graces to the Church.

All for Jesus through Mary.

God bless you,

M. Teresa, M.C.

Letter of Endorsement for the Papal Definition of Mary Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate , Mother Teresa of Calcutta, August 14, 1993.

Read what 20th Century Saints and Blesseds have to say about this doctrine in this Hagiography compiled by Fr. Stefano Manelli, founder of the Franciscans of the Immaculate.

Saints:

Gemma Galgani
Pope
Pius X
Frances Xavier Cabrini
Pio of Pietrelcina
Leopold Mandic
Maximilian Mary Kolbe
Josemaria Escrivà
Edith Stein

Blesseds:

Elizabeth of the Trinity
Bartolo Longo
Luigi Orione
James Alberione
Ildephonse Cardinal Schuster

And, finally, read what many others are saying.

Mother Mary, in our troubled times may we have the grace to call you Coredeemer, Mediatrix and Advocate!

Ave Maria!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: coredemption; hierarchy; marian; mariandevotions; mary; petition
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1 posted on 05/16/2007 1:52:05 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Friar Roderic Mary
Friar Roderic Mary
Since May 11, 2007

Welcome to Free Republic! Your first post, and it's a well-formatted thread! I assume you've registered here before?

2 posted on 05/16/2007 2:11:57 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary

Ah yes. Marian coredemption.
The name however is misleading, making Mary co equal to Jesus. So unless they change the name, one doubts it will be passed.

The doctrine means that Mary as the first Christian and ineed all Christians are co partners in redeeming the world by our “yes” to God.

The biblical reference is in Paul, but I can’t find it right now...something about talking about his sufferings and how they help complete Christ’s redemptions.


3 posted on 05/16/2007 3:10:31 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: LadyDoc
The biblical reference is in Paul, but I can’t find it right now...something about talking about his sufferings and how they help complete Christ’s redemptions.
"Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." Col 1:24 (NIV)
4 posted on 05/16/2007 4:43:03 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Welcome to Free Republic and the Religion Forum!

Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


5 posted on 05/16/2007 4:50:54 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Alex Murphy

Thanks, Alex! I’m glad you like the formatting, it took me for ever :)

Ave Maria!

Fra Roderic


6 posted on 05/16/2007 5:14:49 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: NYer

Our Lady of the Greenwood is MY parish!!! I am SO excited!


7 posted on 05/16/2007 5:50:20 PM PDT by Miss Marple (Prayers for Jemian's son,: Lord, please keep him safe and bring him home .)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; kosta50; kawaii

With all due respect, I doubt you’ll see any dogmatic declarations coming out of Rome for the foreseeable future that could in any way adversely impact on the dialog between Rome and the Orthodox Churches. This one likely would. Assuming we can resolve the proper exercise of the Petrine Ministry, we will have quite enough to deal with discussing in a new Ecumenical Council Rome’s post 7th Ecumenical Council dogmas without adding more divisive issues.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what heresy or problem would a “Coredemptrix” dogma address? If none, what is the point of such a dogma?


8 posted on 05/16/2007 5:54:45 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; vox_freedom; Canticle_of_Deborah
Welcome to FR!

Mary, Mediatrix of all graces, help of Christians, pray for us.

Vatican II vs. The BVM - Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer

9 posted on 05/16/2007 6:14:11 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Kolokotronis; Friar Roderic Mary; kawaii
With all due respect, I doubt you’ll see any dogmatic declarations coming out of Rome for the foreseeable future that could in any way adversely impact on the dialog between Rome and the Orthodox Churches. This one likely would

Apparently, some are not at all concerned about ruining sincere efforts at re-uniting the Church, but are pressing forward with more innovations.

What most people don't realize is that had it not been for two 19th century dogmas, the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility, the Church would probably have been re-united by now!

So, the real, almost unbridgeable rift did not exist until the 19th century. If this century produces Mary the Co-redemptrix dogma, that will put the last nail in the coffin of fulfilling Christ's commandment of a united Church.

10 posted on 05/16/2007 6:42:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary

Coredemptrix - Latin for the woman with the redeemer.


11 posted on 05/16/2007 6:56:41 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: murphE; Friar Roderic Mary; vox_freedom; Canticle_of_Deborah
Welcome!

Roman Catholic tradition BTTT

12 posted on 05/16/2007 7:11:44 PM PDT by vox_freedom (John 16:2 yea, the hour come, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary

Mary reigns! Mary rules! Mary conquers!

Mary reigns as Queen of Heaven!

Mary rules through her Immaculate Heart!

Mary conquers as the Immaculate Conception crushing the serpent!

Mary is SALVATRIX!!!

Co-Redemptrix + Mediatrix of All Graces = Salvatrix


13 posted on 05/16/2007 7:34:02 PM PDT by Macoraba
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To: murphE

Very nice, thanks.


14 posted on 05/16/2007 7:40:07 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah (tired of voting for the lesser of two evils)
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To: kosta50; kawaii

“...but are pressing forward with more innovations.”

And an innovation, a particularly strange one at that, it is. One wonders what compels some Latins to press for not simply the toleration of this rather unpatristic notion, but indeed to dogmatize it. The position of the Most Holy Theotokos within The Church and hearts of the faithful is secure and has been for at least 1700 years, likely rather longer. The expression of that veneration and love in the Akathist Hymn seems to me quite sufficient, as it has been since +Romanos the Melodist penned it in the late 5th, early 6th century and in the kontakia, apolytikia, troparia and Divine Liturgies of The Church since the 4th century. The Mariology of The Church is clear. For the life of me I can see little purpose behind this activity unless it is to derail reunion with Orthodoxy.

“...I know from the writings of the holy Apostle Paul: the Holy Spirit declares that even the angels would be anathema if they should begin to preach another Gospel, introducing some new teaching.” +Maximos the Confessor


15 posted on 05/16/2007 7:50:45 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
The position of the Most Holy Theotokos within The Church and hearts of the faithful is secure and has been for at least 1700 years, likely rather longer.

What is the Orthodox view of the role of Mary, and how does it differ from that of the Catholics and the Protestants?

16 posted on 05/16/2007 7:59:33 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; LadyDoc

I believe BXVI has already rejected this. The concept is theologically fuzzy, not traditional, and should not go any further.


17 posted on 05/16/2007 8:08:57 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius

You mean Coredemptrix or Mediatrix?


18 posted on 05/16/2007 8:21:44 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: kosta50
Ave Maria!

Good to here from the Eastern Orthodox. In regard to the unbridgeable gap not existing until the 18th century, why did the gap not get bridged in the 800 years prior to the definition of the Immaculate Conception? I think Our Lady is the common ground between the East and the West. Perhaps honoring her with this dogma is something we can get together on.

Ave Maria!

19 posted on 05/16/2007 8:36:21 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Kolokotronis
Ave Maria!

I am certainly no theologian. In fact, I am a seminary drop-out, but I will, for the sake of discussion, add my two cents. I am very interested in seeing the East and West be reunited. I am a Protestant convert and see unity as very important and especially as a sign for the non believers to see that Christ is sent by the Father, John 17 et al. Perhaps there is already to much to deal with doctrinally but this is the point, the primary issue between the east and the west is jurisdictional, as you point out in your comment.

Sure there is the Photian based spat over the Philioque and, yes, the Immaculate Conception, but most of the anger surrounding these hinges on the fact that the Pope declared these things with little or no agreement or dialog with the East. Sure there are some modern dyed-in-the-wool Photians among the Easter Orthodox theologians (Losski and Clement to name two) but there are also some theological giants, some of your best Fathers of the East such as St. Epipiphius St. Cyril or Alexandria who are in agreement with the Philogue. As such, i think the greatest part of the battle is a question of authority.

And, I can understand the difficulty in regard to authority. There are sins on both sides. However, we need help from Our Lady. We have already waited almost 1000 years to resolve this split, but we need Our Lady’s help NOW. By all indications this is Satan’s hour for battle (the big battle) and to be able to do battle with him we must be fully sons and daughters of Mary (Gen 3:15, Apoc 12:1ff) and so be brothers and sisters of Christ. And this doctrine of the Coredemption is a great way to honor our Mother. And if the devil is the great divider, turning us into deviled ham, if you will, then perhaps the first fruit of our battle with him will be the healing of the rift between east and west.

The majority of all Christians are in one single denomination. If we can’t proclaim Mary as Coredeemer as a fully united Church (which would, indeed, be preferable) should not the majority go ahead and do so as a second best plan? And do so for the sake of the whole Church?

At any rate, I believe once we resolve the juridical issues we can resolve all the doctrinal issues easily enough, be it the Philioque, the Immaculate Conception or even the Coredemption. After all, do you really disagree with the doctrine of the Coredemption? Isn’t it just saying that we all must take up our cross and follow Christ? That we are coredeemers with Christ? and Mary is our exemplar?

Your Brother in Christ and Mary,

Fra Roderic, Ave Maria!

20 posted on 05/16/2007 8:36:48 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Kolokotronis
I find myself agreeing with you on this. The concept of "coredemtrix" has always caused red flags to go up for me. I have great difficulty defending the idea, so I generally ignore it. The theology behind it is far from convincing.

There have always been bishops, clerics, and theologians out there with theological innovations. Generally, I have no problem with the Church allowing some latitude in personal piety. I certainly have no problem with devotion to the Blessed Mother. That said, I am glad the Pope hasn't attempted to dogmatically define this title for Mary as I think it goes way beyond Scripture, and beyond Tradition.

I'll continue to pray over it, though.
21 posted on 05/16/2007 8:37:03 PM PDT by Antoninus (P!ss off an environmentalist wacko . . . have more kids.)
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To: Pyro7480
The "Coredemption" Express has certainly left the station because of the anti-Marian heresies all over the place within the Latin Church and also because of rising esteem for the promise of the Marian apparation to Ida Peerdeman that with such a declaration graces would follow that would derail an oncoming global calamity.

Perhaps with Russia increasingly up to old tricks (What? You mean we have to respect the UK's air space?)and the Holy See refusing to revisit the question of the Fatima consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, some of these folks have come to see responding to the call of the Lady of All Nations for the new dogmatic declaration as a last chance before "sudden destruction".

22 posted on 05/16/2007 8:41:45 PM PDT by Maeve (Do you have supplies for an extended emergency? Be prepared! Pray!)
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To: Antoninus; Pyro7480
There are fundamental problems in the technical expressions used in some of the Marian dogmatic declarations.

What is needed is not this new dogma added to what has already been created by the ex cathedra declarations of Popes but rather an entirely comprehensive dogmatic constitution of the Church concerning Our Most Holy Lady Mary, the God-bearer. This could be a very effective vehicle especially with Light from the East, so to speak, by including and drawing from the wisdom of the Eastern Catholic churches concerning the Blessed Mother of God as well as the Orthodox East and those voices from the Fathers important to both West and East. I am only lightly sketching what I think might be done in this regard with this post.

23 posted on 05/16/2007 8:51:59 PM PDT by Maeve (Do you have supplies for an extended emergency? Be prepared! Pray!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kawaii
One wonders what compels some Latins to press for not simply the toleration of this rather unpatristic notion, but indeed to dogmatize it

Indeed. Well said, Kolo.

24 posted on 05/16/2007 8:58:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: livius; Kolokotronis; LadyDoc
I believe BXVI has already rejected this. The concept is theologically fuzzy, not traditional, and should not go any further

If he did that's good. I can honestly say I would expect that from +BXVI, who is a top-notch theologian and patristic at that.

25 posted on 05/16/2007 9:01:12 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Maeve
The "Coredemption" Express has certainly left the station because of the anti-Marian heresies all over the place within the Latin Church and also because of rising esteem for the promise of the Marian apparation to Ida Peerdeman that with such a declaration graces would follow that would derail an oncoming global calamity.

Those kinds of reasons are far from convincing to me. I've never heard of the apparitions to Ida Peerdeman. Has the Church ruled on the validity of these apparitions? It strikes me as very unusual that Mary would ask for new and higher titles. Definitely out of keeping with the humility of the BVM throughout history. Seeking to be exalted to the level of God is the territory of a different kind of spirit, altogether.

As I said, I'll continue to pray about it.
26 posted on 05/16/2007 9:05:20 PM PDT by Antoninus (P!ss off an environmentalist wacko . . . have more kids.)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; Kolokotronis; kawaii
why did the gap not get bridged in the 800 years prior to the definition of the Immaculate Conception?

For one, the mutual anathemas of 1054 between the Bishop of Rome and Constantinople (which were "relegated to oblivion" in 1964, after 910 years). Except for Purgatory, the other issues were doctrinal and not dogmatic. And the issue of Purgatory has a to to do with the western phronema (or mindset) than anything esle. once stripped of the legalistic notions, the dogma becomes less unbridgeable.

Once the 19th century brought forth two new dogmas, evrything else paled compared to them. and a crack became a canyon.

PS I hope you don't mind that I pinged the other two Orthodox on this thread.

27 posted on 05/16/2007 9:21:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

**Coredemptrix - Latin for the woman with the redeemer.**

You have the correct translation. BTTT!


28 posted on 05/16/2007 9:26:35 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

**Coredemptrix - Latin for the woman with the redeemer.**

It means that Christ is the supreme person with the graces and the salvation.

The way, the truth and the life.


29 posted on 05/16/2007 9:27:25 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis
If this century produces Mary the Co-redemptrix dogma, that will put the last nail in the coffin of fulfilling Christ's commandment of a united Church.
that's simply not so. Christ founded one church and one church there is. It may seal the deal that 'Catholics' are no longer a part of it. But it will not change that Christ found ONE church and that church is still united. especially with the rocor mp reunion all REALY orthodox jurisdictions are in communion by proxy.
30 posted on 05/16/2007 9:37:45 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; Kolokotronis
that's simply not so. Christ founded one church and one church there is. It may seal the deal that 'Catholics' are no longer a part of it

Of course they are part of it! They never stopped being part of it. Orthodox Bishops stopped communing with the those bishops who commune with the Bishop of Rome because of theological disagreements, but he is still a valid Bishop!

Once bishops no longer agree on theology, they cannot commune with each other. Communion is a sing of unity, not a means of attaining one.

Disagreement does not invalidate Holy Orders. If the Holy Mysteries are the kept, as is the case in both Churches, then that bishop can consecrate priests and three bishops can consecrate another bishop.

The reason why Anglican orders are not recognized in the East and the West is because their sacraments (mysteries) are deficient, so while their original bishops, if any, were valid bishops, they could not consecrate valid clergy to replace the existing ones, and that broke the Apostolic Succession of the Anglicans, as well as other Protestants.

31 posted on 05/16/2007 10:06:42 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Ave Maria!

No problem with the pinging. The more the merrier. My point with the 800 years is that it really was not so bridgeable. If the issues were truly so bridgeable before the Immaculate Conception Dogma then why was it not resolved in the long 800 years prior to it. It is an awfully long time for such an “bridgeable” gap to remain unfilled. The conclusion then is that it was, in fact, very unbridgeable as the time attests and completely independent of the Immaculate Conception. Again, it is the jurisdictional squabbles that are the driving force here not doctrine. At least that’s how I see it.

Ave Maria!

Fra Roderic

32 posted on 05/16/2007 10:11:35 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: kosta50
Ave Maria!

Thanks, kosta50, for clearing up that one.

33 posted on 05/16/2007 10:13:03 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Friar Roderic Mary

Queen of Heaven rejoice, alleluia: For He whom you merited to bear, alleluia, Has risen as He said, alleluia. Pray for us to God, alleluia.

V. Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, alleluia.
R. Because the Lord is truly risen, alleluia.

O God, who by the Resurrection of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, granted joy to the whole world: grant we beg Thee, that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother, we may lay hold of the joys of eternal life. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

SALVE REGINA, Mater misericordiae. Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve. Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te Suspiramus, gementes et flentes in hac lacrimarum valle. Eia ergo, Advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende. O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.


34 posted on 05/16/2007 10:40:38 PM PDT by baa39
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To: Kolokotronis
Ave Maria!

...anathema if they should begin to preach another Gospel, introducing some new teaching.” +Maximos the Confessor

Yes, I agree with this! The question, though, is whether this is really a new doctrine? Again, we are simply saying that Mary participates in a unique way in the redemption. This is in a greater degree than any other creature but not equal to God. No blasphemy here. Nothing too radical. Maybe a development of old doctrine, but not "another Gospel."

And an innovation, a particularly strange one at that, it is.

and from and earlier post

Just as a matter of curiosity, what heresy or problem would a “Coredemptrix” dogma address? If none, what is the point of such a dogma?

Again, I am not the theologian but this is such an important question and I am always willing to boldly tread where angels stop in dread. So I will add my two cents : )

Certainly we seem to agree that Marian Doctrines have effectively addressed heresies in the past e.g. Theotokos, the God bearer as others have already commented. This effectively squashed the Nestorian heresy because if she bore a divine person then Jesus is one person and that person is divine, as opposed to the Nestorian concept that said he was two persons, a divine person somehow attached to a human person and only the human person was born by Mary.

Similarly, the Immaculate Conception effectively addressed both the Protestants who despaired of ever being able to receive actual grace and the Humanists who were rather complacent in this regard. The Immaculate Conception Dogma restored hope to the Protestants (and the Protestant leaning Jansensist in the Catholic Church) because it says human nature is not necessarily fallen, at least not in this one case, and so it is at least possible for a pure creature to actually be elevated by grace after the fall and be actually sanctified instead of merely being declared innocent, a la Luther. And in regard to the humanists it said, yes, it is possible to conquer fallen nature, but only one pure creature was conceived immaculately. The rest of us have to work at it!!

And finally, the dogma of the Coredemption addresses the issue of the importance of suffering, its redeeming value. That we are all called to be coredeemers with Christ and with Mary as the pure creature who is our exemplar. And just as she won the role by having her heart pierced (Prophecy of Simeon Luke 2) suffering in union with Christ at the crucifixion so we must participate by offering up our suffering in union with Christ's suffering.

What good does this do for the Church today? Well, what is the chief heresy in the world today? Hedonism with all its vices, contraception, abortion, euthenasia... The only sin in the modern mind is to suffer and suffering is the worst of all scandals. Thus the root of all of our moral problems in the modern world (and, no doubt, most of our physical problems) is this headlong rush away from suffering. If anyone can remedy this massive problem it is Our Lady the Coredeemer.

I must say though that all these reasonings are pretty much my own speculation, simply the fruit of meditation. I simply do not read enough to have any kind of certainty about them. I leave it up to others to correct me. But as you can see I love talking about them. : )

Ave Maria!!

35 posted on 05/17/2007 12:26:38 AM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Kolokotronis
Ave Maria!!

Also, one further point, the Marian dogmas of the west are highly linked to the Christology of John Duns Scotus of which the doctrine of the Absolute Primacy of Christ is central. It says that Christ the God-man would have come whether Adam sinned or not and that the Incarnation is in fact the very reason for creation so that there would be a human nature for God to unite himself to. This is also called the Franciscan thesis and it is the Franciscans who promoted the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, starting with ... Scotus. Thus, the Franciscan exaltation of Mary is merely the recognition that if Christ was the Primary thought of God in regard to creation then Mary would naturally be the second since she is the immediate creaturely instrument of bringing about the Incarnation.

This basis for the Marian dogmas offers some alleviation to the ecumenical concerns. In regard to the Protestant objection that focusing on Mary detracts form Jesus, it must be said that the Franciscan thesis upon which these doctrines are based are the most Christocentric position possible, bar none, including any Protestant Christology!! Any step away from Scotus' doctrine is a step away from the highest possible Christocentrism. Thus Marian-centric dogmas are fully compatible with Christo-centric dogmas, in fact, symbiotic.

In regard to the Eastern Orthodoxy, it is actually the Eastern Fathers that were stronger on this than the western (citation needed). St Augustine explicitly denied that Christ would have come if Adam had not sinned.

If you want to know more about the Absolute Primacy of Christ it is being discussed in great detail in the video series by Fr. Maximilian at Airmaria.com and in his book, available there. And it is very interesting indeed!! Especially the Biblical stuff.

Now I am going to bed!!!!

Oh, ... and the full Dogma as it is being proposed is not just Mary Coredemptrix but Coredemptrix, Mediatrix (of all Graces) and Advocate. But, I will let someone else deal with that.

I just have to get this stuff out to give everyone plenty to yell at me about while I sleep in tomorrow.

Happy Solemnity of the Ascension!! (Holy day of obligation in some(??) diocese...)

BTW when is Ascension in the Eastern Orthodox Church this year?

Now I am really going to sleep, . . . really! Thanks for your patience, Kolokotronis.

Mary Coredemtrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for me!!!

Ave Maria!

36 posted on 05/17/2007 12:49:29 AM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: jude24; Friar Roderic Mary; kosta50; kawaii

“What is the Orthodox view of the role of Mary, and how does it differ from that of the Catholics and the Protestants?”

The way we pray and what we pray demonstrates what we believe. If you read this link to the Akathist Hymn you’ll see pretty much what Orthodoxy believes concerning the Most Holy Theotokos.

http://www.monachos.net/library/Akathist_Hymn_to_Our_Most_Holy_Lady_Mother_of_God_(Theotokos)

This little chant from the Divine Liturgy also shows what we believe.

“It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.”

Our Mariology differs so much from that of the Protestants, well at least most of them, that it would take up far too much bandwidth to discuss it in a single post. Several years of discussing Mariology on FR have convinced me that Mariology just isn’t for Protestants. As for the Latins, well our Mariology is virtually identical to theirs, though perhaps without the popular “enthusiasm” (in the religious sense of the word)and apocolyptic aura surrounding what they call warnings but look for all the world to many of us like threats. Dogmatically, Orthodoxy does not accept the Immaculate Conception as usually expressed, but this is because we do not hold by the Western notion of Original Sin. We also have not dogmatized the bodily assumption of Panagia into heaven, though every Orthodox I know of believes it to be true.

FRM, I will try to respond to your various posts today, but it likely will be tomorrow night before I can give them the attention they deserve. I’m in the middle of a major case and the next two days will be taken up with that matter.


37 posted on 05/17/2007 4:09:37 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg

Anyone who toys with the idea of Mary being coredemptrix is flirting with heresy.

It’s that simple.


38 posted on 05/17/2007 6:00:31 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Maeve; Antoninus; Pyro7480; kosta50; Kolokotronis
also because of rising esteem for the promise of the Marian apparation to Ida Peerdeman that with such a declaration graces would follow that would derail an oncoming global calamity.

If you'd really stop to think about it, you'd realize this idea is quite silly - namely that the hand of God will only be moved to our benefit by our puny actions in declaring new dogmas. I can't see how such a notion squares with the Bible.

"Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they? ... For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you." (St. Matthew 6.26, 32-33)

these folks have come to see responding to the call of the Lady of All Nations for the new dogmatic declaration as a last chance before "sudden destruction".

This is especially ridiculous. There is not a shread of evidence from the Bible that God is going to allow our destruction. This is speculative dispensationalist heresy run amok in the Catholic Church.

39 posted on 05/17/2007 6:07:45 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Antoninus
Seeking to be exalted to the level of God is the territory of a different kind of spirit, altogether.

I have heard that part of the problem is that Latin "co-" does not have the connotations of equality that English "co-" as in co-pilot, co-conspirator. Co-redemptrix simply means--so I have heard--one who participates in redemption, which could be said of all of us. Anyway, that's what I heard...not that I buy it necessarily.

I don't much care for this definition either...but I'll take a wait and see tack.

40 posted on 05/17/2007 6:12:48 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Friar Roderic Mary; Kolokotronis; kawaii
Thank you FRM. I didn't say that conditions existed or that there was a will to bridge the gap, but that the existing gap was bridgeable, as compared to the gap created by the dogmas of Immaculate Conception and the Vatican I.

The jurisdictional issues are also very real but bridgeable, and even the infallibility issue can be, if construed within the framework of the undivided Church of the first millennium.

The issue of Immaculate Concpetion involves the issue of Augustinian teaching on the original sin, which the Eastern Church never accepeted and the undivided Church did not teach as dogma.

As long as the Immaculate Conception was a devotional belief of many in the Church it could be treated as such in any re-unification without requiring theological changes on either side, but as a dogma it is carved in stone.

It would require that the Orthodox scrap the theology of the Church of the 1st millennium, of the seven councils, in order to accept the dogma of IC, and that's not going to happen because we are still the 1st millennium Church.

So, once IC became a dogma, it essentially welded the doors shut that only a miracle can open because right now the choices are toom extreme for either side, no matter how good the will may be to re-establish our communion.

If, by some miracle we were to find common theological ground on IC, we are still facing the issue of created vs. uncreated grace on which our Churches speak very rarely because it is a huge stumbling stone.

41 posted on 05/17/2007 6:18:30 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Friar Roderic Mary

You’re welcome.


42 posted on 05/17/2007 6:19:35 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; kawaii; Kolokotronis; Antoninus; Maeve
Just as a matter of curiosity, what heresy or problem would a “Coredemptrix” dogma address? If none, what is the point of such a dogma?

One of the better questions ever asked on this topic.

I could see the point of a Mediatrix/Advocate definition if it was combined with some new movement to spread devotion to Blessed Mary among those with whom that devotion has grown cold. There is plenty of support from theological sources both east and west for these ideas, and turning people towards Blessed Mary as the channel of grace from Jesus to us would be helpful.

I have no idea what the Co-redemptrix definition is supposed to resolve. It looks to me like a sure-fire way to spread confusion, bigotry, and division among Christians, who are already ill-enough catechized as is and certainly already plenty divided over Marianism. If the knowledgeable among us have difficulty grasping the concept, I can't imagine what good popularizing it among the common people would do.

Let people learn the value again of saying a few Hail Mary's morning, noon, and night, and we'll see where we go from there.

43 posted on 05/17/2007 6:19:59 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Andrew Byler; kawaii; Kolokotronis; Antoninus; Maeve
I could see the point of a Mediatrix/Advocate definition if it was combined with some new movement to spread devotion to Blessed Mary among those with whom that devotion has grown cold. There is plenty of support from theological sources both east and west for these ideas, and turning people towards Blessed Mary as the channel of grace from Jesus to us would be helpful.

Very well put. That goes without saying. We Orthodox pray that she saves us (through her prayers). A mediatrix makes her a saint. A co-redemptrix makes her divine.

I have no idea what the Co-redemptrix definition is supposed to resolve. It looks to me like a sure-fire way to spread confusion, bigotry, and division among Christians, who are already ill-enough catechized as is and certainly already plenty divided over Marianism

This would create great upheaval even among the Catholics, but I can assure you that the work this Pope has so diligently accomplished in bringing us closer would be effectively dissolved.

44 posted on 05/17/2007 6:55:55 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: LadyDoc

In reply to LadyDoc:
You erroneously equate the term “Co-redemptrix” with “Co-equal”. This is incorrect, because “Co-redemptrix” means redeeming with Christ, not equal to Him. He is divine, She is a creature, and He chose Her before all time to give Him the flesh with which He redeemed us, and with which He still remains for all eternity, beginning from that point in time, and from which He will examine and judge us. Without this flesh, freely given by Her, there is no redemption. If this is not “Co-redemption”, please define what you think redemption is all about or how it took place.


45 posted on 05/17/2007 7:31:13 AM PDT by knight of lepanto
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To: Andrew Byler; everyone

Ave Maria!
Mary’s role as Coredemptrix is Scriptural and rooted in Tradition—Saints, Popes, theologians and faithful alike have always seen Our Lady’s role in our salvation (always secondary and subordinated to Christ) as important.
Check out this link

http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

Also, Monsignor Calkins has some excellent articles on the web on this topic, such as

http://motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=833&Itemid=40

God included Mary in His plan for our salvation, including her sorrows with and under Christ for the sake of His Church during the actual event of our Redemption on Calvary. A dogma on Mary’s spiritual motherhood as Mediatrix of Grace and Coredemptrix would clarify that she is not equal to Christ in her role, yet would uphold her unique participation in the work of our salvation and her unique role in dispensing God’s grace to her children.

Peace...


46 posted on 05/17/2007 7:32:41 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
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To: kosta50
A co-redemptrix makes her divine.

How so? It means "redeeming with."

47 posted on 05/17/2007 7:33:20 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: baa39
Queen of Heaven rejoice, alleluia ...

Thanks for that, baa. I first read that last night when I was getting tired responding. It gave me a lift!

Ave Maria!

48 posted on 05/17/2007 7:46:09 AM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Miss Marple
Our Lady of the Greenwood is MY parish!!! I am SO excited!

Hope to see you there!!

Ave Maria!

49 posted on 05/17/2007 7:51:08 AM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
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To: Kolokotronis

In reply to Kolokotronis:
You ask, “What heresy or problem would a “Coredemptrix” dogma address? If none, what is the point of such a dogma?” You pose this question as if it were a secular issue — that we need to weigh up the costs and balances, the values of the arguments each way to reach some “positive outcome”. If the dogma is true, then such arguments are completely invalid, by definition. If it is not true, then all of this doesn’t matter. This is the point: If you have an argument as to why it is untrue, then make it! Don’t ask if it is appropriate to establish this dogma now, as if it were a purely political issue.


50 posted on 05/17/2007 7:54:09 AM PDT by knight of lepanto
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