Posted on 05/26/2007 4:32:30 PM PDT by Titanites
I am a convert to the Catholic Faith from Calvinism. I loved Calvinism and owned a library full of Calvin, Luther, Warfield, Hodge, Murray, Owen, Machen, etc. as well as helped plant a local Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I knew Reformation Theology and how much hatred it generates for the Catholic Church. As a Calvinist, I could boast with the best of them. I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics.
My one flaw was learning what the Early Church Fathers believed. A Catholic who had not fared well in a debate with me, mentioned I should read the Early Church Fathers to see just how Catholic they were. I honestly thought I would just gain more "ammo" to use in my battles.
I found Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp with my first visit to the University Library. I poured over them for months until finally I pounded the books on the table with my fists, tossed them from the fourth to the third level of the library and wept. It seemed these great martyrs for the Faith were Catholic. It had taken about 8 months of going over Clement, Augustine, Athanasius, etc. to see the Catholic Church was the Early Church. I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.
Over the next two years, I read more and more on the Catholic Faith and became less and less convinced the Reformed Faith was correct. It became clear to me; it was nothing more than a novelty, spewing forth doctrines that had never been believed before. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is very humbling to come to the conclusion you have been horribly wrong, even to the point of not trusting the words of our precious Lord and Saviour. Yet, I still was not ready to become a Catholic.
Then one day when I was reading the Scripture I read Paul talking about how he was the most religious Pharisee, the most upright, and you know my heart was pierced and I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about? So I looked up one of the most wonderful examples of boasting the Lord mentioned. Luke 18:9-14 (Please read the Scripture as this is my paraphrase)
'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Calvinist and the other a sinner. The Calvinist (that would be I) stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other people, sinners, Catholics, heretics, or even like this sinner beside me. I planted your church in this god-forsaken part of the country, I read the Scriptures and Calvin and Luther twice a week, and the rest of the week I read nothing but reformers and your Scriptures. But the sinner standing a little off to the side, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, God, be merciful to me the sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
You know who the sinner was? I turned next to Luke 5:8 because I was then looking for others who admitted they were sinners for I knew I was once the boaster but now I was the sinner. "But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." Peter then was able to go on and follow Jesus. Peter came home, this home became the Church, and he was the Rock it was built upon, and he was justified.
At that moment, it finally became clear I could not stay a Calvinist or stay in the OPC. I had plans to attend Westminster Seminary and those were discarded. I lost friends and was informed I must have never been a Christian in the first place.
As I became least, Christ became more. I decided the only place I could go was the home where the Apostle Peter went. I was accepted into the Catholic Church in Easter 2002. I have never been happier and I wish and pray this joy for all. I will never be the same after taking the Body and Blood of our Lord.
My understanding of the reformed view is that it is not "either or" but "both and." That is, it is YOUR faith. It is not God's faith, but truly yours, exercised by a moral, choosing being. Nevertheless, that faith is the natural and irresistable choice of a regenerate nature. Ask a child whether he "chooses" spinach or ice cream, and he will choose ice cream every time. No one forces him to do so, he simply chooses (with a hat tip to Jonathan Edwards) according to what seems best to him, or most desireable to him. I personally believe (and there is some degree of biblical evidence for this) that faith is an act of the will. However, the biblical picture is that our will is in bondage (again, hat tip to Luther) to our sinful nature, and only chooses as our sinful minds and natures dictate. Therefore, when God makes us alive by a sovereign act of the regenerating Holy Spirit, suddenly we see the beauty and glory of Christ (we were blind before), the danger of our own unbelief (at which we mocked before) and the great love of Christ in dying for ME! The natural and most reasonable thing in the world for a man made alive is to fling himself into the promises of Christ...., and he does.
So is faith a gift? Sure! Not in the sense that it is not MY faith. I exercise faith. God does not do it FOR me. However, because it ONLY comes from a regenerate spirit, it can truly be said to be a GIFT.
And what is wrong with door #3 --- Romans 10:17: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"
Show me from the scriptures where one is born again before he hears the word of God???
Absolutely. Actually I would say that Calvin and Luther differed very little from Augustine. ;O)
Unless God opens up our hearts like Lydia, we cannot attended to the things that are of God.
Another typical Calvinistic refrain --- and you think that classic Calvinism is biblical???
Already today we have discovered that the Calvinistic claim that "believing" is a "work" is unbiblical. How many more of its invented doctrines are as well?
Show me from scriptures where faith comes to anyone before or apart from the word of God.
Show me from the scriptures where one is regenerated [born again] before or apart from the gospel, aka the word of God?
I won't hold my breath ---
Perhaps. But my point was that the “discrepancy” between 2001 vs. 2002 was, in itself, not worth pointing out as anything indicating that the story was not on the level. That there may or may not be other indicators of prevarication is, of course, debatable.
Interesting comment in light of the fact that I am not a Calvinist. But then to a Pelagian, even an Arminian is a Calvinist.
--- and you think that classic Calvinism is biblical???
Everything that Calvinism asserts is biblical. There is a verse for every point they make. I think some Calvinists take it too far, but the general theological position of Calvinists is biblical.
Show me from scriptures where faith comes to anyone before or apart from the word of God.
The Centurion. (Matthew Chapter 8) John the Baptist. (Faith exhibited in the Womb).
Show me from the scriptures where one is regenerated [born again] before or apart from the gospel, aka the word of God?
I don't make that argument. The Calvinists have all the verses. I am non-committal in regard to the point at which the new birth takes place. Regardless, you cannot be saved unless God first changes your heart. If you have a cold dead heart, you will not respond to the gospel. If you responded to the Gospel it is because God made it possible. (The Calvinist would argue that God not only made it possible, but made it impossible to reject the gospel). I'm not sure I'd go that far. God may make it possible for all, but it is clearly "irresistible" to those whom he has chosen.
Whatever it is, the fact remains that if you embraced the gospel, then the glory goes to God alone.
I won't hold my breath ---
You don't need to.
Thank you. I have no problem with your characterization. She wasn't saved or regenerated [born again] when God opened her heart. God was preparing her heart so that she would receive the word from Paul --- and that word would eventually accomplish those things in her.
John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb for joy at the sound of Mary's voice. No gospel preached there.
What is NORMAL is not necesarily NORMATIVE
I defy you to show me anywhere in classical Calvinistic soteriology where believing is counted a "work." You got that idea somewhere else. It is most definitely NOT Calvinism
John the Baptist might just be a special case ===
Then where does it come from because it is said often in this forum by those of the Reformed persuasion.
There’s nothing in the Bible that says "born again" is a requirement for salvation.
The problem where you put "born again" is you make the person both lost and born again at the same time.
That does not happen - Only saved people are born again.
The first step God takes the person through is repentance. God does NOT use born again during the process of repentance.
The component God uses is CONVICTION !!
It’s only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person is CONVICTED of their sins AND convicted they are a sinner.
The Holy Spirit convicts the person of judgment.
The Holy Spirit convicts the person of Jesus righteousness.
Therefore it’s by the power of CONVICTION the Holy Spirit uses to bring the person to a saving faith. Not being born again.
Now let’s take a look at the verse that speaks of born again (regeneration) ....
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Notice the above verse is a IF-THEN statement....
IF any man be in Christ, THEN he is a new creature:
The person must first be "in Christ".
"In Christ" means they already are identified in Christ’s death. Only saved people are "in Christ".
IF any man be in Christ, THEN he is a new creature:
Therefore the person is saved, THEN they become born again.
After being saved it’s born again that brings a new life to the person.
No, it is not. You are confused. Reformed persons have accused Arminians of making a saving faith a "work" ( I think this is misguided as an accusation, btw), but no one who knows his head from a hole in the ground would say such a thing. It is profoundly unbiblical and I have never heard of any Reformed person saying such a thing. You are simply in error.
Dead people don't turn to Christ from their sin of unbelief. A natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God. Indeed, He CANNOT, because they are spiritually perceived. An unregenerate man will no more repent than he will grow fins and swim underwater to china. He won't because he can't and the can't because he won't. You have a very low view of the effects of sin, and a very high view of your own abilities to respond to God. Both are unbiblical. The problem where you put "born again" is you make the person both lost and born again at the same time.
Lost me there, partner. I can't see that I have done any such thing.
Only saved people are born again.
Rather, only born again people are saved.
The component God uses is CONVICTION !! It’s only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person is CONVICTED of their sins AND convicted they are a sinner.
A dead person cannot be savingly convicted of sin, although they can experience an ungodly sorrow for the consequences of sin and may feel something of the guilt of it. Hell, of course is slap full of that kind of "conviction." You make a huge and unbiblical assumption in stating that the human heart, under pressure from God's law, can change itself from a dead heart to a living one. This is, again, unbiblical. Only God gives a new heart. Faith follows (again, logically, if not temporally).
Therefore it’s by the power of CONVICTION the Holy Spirit uses to bring the person to a saving faith. Not being born again.
I am sorry. This statement is simply unbiblical and inconsistent with what the scripture says about the saving work of the Holy Spirit and the abysmal state of human nature. We are not "sick" according to scripture. We are "dead." Dead people cannot choose. They can only be brought to life.
II Cor 5:17 says nothing about the order of salvation. It simply states that if one is IN CHRIST (joined to him) then one is a new creature. The verse in fact could just as easily be predicating the first condition (being in Christ) on the last (being a new creature).
Your problem here is your unbiblical belief that dead people can respond to the offer of the gospel. I can share with you a boatload of scriptures which demonstate the opposite, if you wish.
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
The orthodox and biblical counter to this runs more or less like this:
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.(hat tip to Thomas and Steele)
Again, I have a TRUCKLOAD of scriptures to demonstrate this teaching if you need em.
Of course he is. That was the point.
I think you would find Jonathan Edwards on the "Freedom of the Will" to be very enjoyable. Edwards is great because he is brilliant and a wonderful theologian, yet he is not some abstract theoretical guy. He wrote most of his stuff in the middle of a mind blowing, Spirit drenched revival that literally shook the hinges off the church doors. We have never seen in our age something to compare. He is a theologian of the heart. We could stand some more of what followed his ministry. His theology ain't bad, either.
I would like to see them --- because though scripture says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, it never says that in that condition we are incapable of hearing the word of God.Calvinism on this point underestimates the power of the word of God through which the Holy Spirit works.
A whole lot of those "dead in their trespasses and sins" heard and responded to the Word of God during His earthly ministry. And they were commended for their faith in what He had to say.
Interestingly enough, medical science now knows that people in comas who cannot move, open their eyes, or do anything, can still hear the voices of those around their bed, and the hearing of those voices is often the turning point in their recovery.
A good question might be: When was Lazarus raised from the grave: before or after he heard the words: "Lazarus, come forth"?
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness [Romans 4:5].
The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.
And yet when the apostles could not pray with Jesus for one hour, He said "the spirit indeed is willing, the flesh is weak" [Mt 26:41]. The will was not the problem.
Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature.
Show me proof from the scriptures that a person is regenerated before he can hear and believe the gospel.
Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
Granted that everything that we have is a gift from God --- time, life, energy, feeling, seeing, tasting, hearing, trusting --- but one still chooses how to spend those things he has received. They can be spent in the direction of the eternal life, or in some other direction. It's their choice:
"But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him". [Hebrews 11:6]
If the regeneration necessary for eternal life is that reward, then it comes after they have diligently sought him and spent their faith in God's direction.
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