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Leaving the Catholic Church, A Letter of Resignation
Lazyboy's Rest Stop ^ | Robert Mayberry

Posted on 06/01/2007 2:28:41 PM PDT by Gamecock

Following is my resignation letter from the Roman Catholic Church and from my position as Director of the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA), a program designed to teach Catholicism to adults who would like to become Catholics.

This letter serves to inform you that I am separating myself from the Roman Catholic Church. This decision has come about after many months of intensive research into the Scriptures, the writings of the Patristic fathers of the church, and church history. During this period of research I have considered the writings and/or oral arguments of such Catholic authors as Keating, Sungenis, Ott, Hahn, Matatics, as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). My separation from the church of Rome is driven by differences in doctrine. This is not a matter of rancor but rather a matter of being faithful to my Lord and Savior with a clear conscience. It is worth noting that I might never have reached this conclusion, except that I was appointed to the position of the Director of the RCIA. Being placed in that position compelled me to look at the Scriptures and church in depth as I studied Catholic doctrine. I readily acknowledge that there are many sincere and devout people in the Catholic church that love the Lord Jesus, but I believe that many of them are misled as to how a person is saved.

What happened that I should change my mind? When I joined the Church in 1993 I made a serious commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the Catholic church. My commitment to the Lord Jesus remains and has grown, but my decision to join the RCC was based upon only a surface reading of Scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic church. The more I have looked at Scripture (and not just at localized passages) I discovered that not all the doctrines taught by the RCC are Scriptural. Not being content with this, because I realized that my private interpretation might possibly be in error, I began to read the writings of the early fathers of the church. I found that many of the doctrines held and taught by the RCC today are not in agreement with the early church, nor are they found in Scripture. Many of them actually contradict Scripture.

What are some of the doctrinal problems that force me to separate myself?

Marian Doctrine

I have reviewed the church’s teaching on Mary, as Co-Mediatrix, her perpetual virginity, Immaculate conception, and being enthroned as Queen of Heaven. These doctrines are not in agreement with scripture or the teachings of the early fathers of the church. Saint Paul writes in his letter to Timothy (1 Tim 2:5) "there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." It was interesting to discover that none of the early church fathers in the first three hundred years of the church ever wrote about Mary as a Co-Mediator. If there is only one mediator as God’s Word says, how can there be a co-mediator? This is a blatant contradiction.

As to Mary’s perpetual virginity Scripture is quite plain. In Matthew 13:55-56 are found references to the brothers and sisters of Jesus. Now I am aware of the claim of some that these terms may refer to cousins or kindred. If one looks up the Greek words for brother and sister in this passage the meaning is clear: the gospel writer means the siblings (adelphos) of the Lord. There are other passages that list the words for cousins (sungenes) as well as for brother (adelphos) or sister in the same passage (such as Luke 21:16).

As to the immaculate conception does not Romans 3:23 say: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It is worth noting that the scripture says that God alone (with respect to human beings) is without sin.

There is no mention in scripture for Mary being the Queen of Heaven. Nor do the early church fathers write of this. Scripture does make mention of a Queen of heaven, however, in Jeremiah 44:25. In this portion of scripture the Lord voices his great displeasure with the people of Israel for offering worship to the Queen of Heaven.

Indulgences and Purgatory

In paragraph 1030 of the CCC it says: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." The idea that regenerated believers in Christ can be imperfectly purified is not scriptural. In Hebrews 10:14 it says: " for by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated." If believers in Christ are made perfect by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, how can there be any that are considered impure by God? Again it is written in Hebrews 10:10: "we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

If these passages are not clear enough, we should consider what the Lord Jesus said to the "good" thief, in Luke 23:43 "..Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Now surely no one would claim that a thief whose crimes were so monstrous as to rate the death penalty would have been able to enter Heaven, because his acts would have rendered him impure and unclean. Instead we see that by his faith in the Lord Jesus, he was cleansed from all imperfection and entered into Christ’s presence in heaven. There is no mention in Scripture of temporal punishment for sin remaining after forgiveness.

Justification

I think that the fundamental difference between Roman Catholic doctrine and the scriptures is most pronounced with respect to how we are saved. The CCC teaches that we can merit eternal life by works done in a state of grace, and not simply by faith alone. St. Paul on the other hand writes in several places that:

Romans 3:28 "For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you, it is the gift of God, it is not from works, so no one may boast."

Galatians 2:16 "We…who know that a person is not justified by works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

The scriptures are clear that salvation comes from repentance and faith in Christ Jesus alone. We will never be justified by our own works whether done in a state of grace or not.

Now some have argued that what Paul meant by the law was the ceremonial law of the Mosaic covenant. This cannot be the case, because Paul later refers to coveting as a violation of the law in Romans 7:7-13. So it can be shown that when Paul says that no one will be justified by the works of the law he is in fact referring to the moral code as well as the ceremonial codes.

The scriptures teach that we are declared righteous by God because of our faith in the Lord Jesus, not by performing penances, novenas, masses, obtaining indulgences or experiencing purgatory. Paul writes in Romans 4:6 "So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits (imputes, declares) righteousness apart from works." So it can be seen that we cannot earn our way to being declared righteous by God, or receiving supplemental graces from God to earn our way into heaven.

I am not saying that those who are justified by Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary have no obligation for obedience to the Lord. Nor am I saying that one is saved by faith, and then allowed to do nothing. In fact those who are called by God our Father, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, repenting of their sins, and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, will invariably seek to do the will of the Lord. To continue on with the passage in that was quoted earlier:

Ephesians 2:10 " for we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them."

I freely believe that faith without works is dead (so did the leaders of the Reformation). God does indeed call us to repent from sin and to work in His service. Nevertheless, no human being will be justified by his own works before God (Romans 3:20), because such works can never be performed perfectly. If someone claims faith in the Lord Jesus, yet no evidence of conversion is found, that person has not yet encountered the risen Christ!

I agree that sanctification, that is, being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus, is an on going process that takes a lifetime. I agree that we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16) " even as He is Holy." We are to strive to complete that holiness, (Hebrews 12:14) "without which no one will see the Lord." The work of that holiness comes from the Lord and is His work, and not from ourselves (Ephesians 2:10). By our own efforts we will not succeed.

The Eucharist.

I fully agree that the Eucharist, true to the meaning of the original Greek, is in fact an offering of praise and thanksgiving to God. It is also certainly a memorial like the Passover, and we are certainly called to be obedient to Christ by celebrating it and proclaiming his death until He comes again. Where Catholic doctrine begins to differ with Scripture is when it states (Paragraph 1367 of the CCC) that the sacrifice of the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, and that Christ is re-sacrificed, but in an unbloody manner. According to Scripture an unbloody sacrifice is not propitiatory, Hebrews 9:22 "and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

The scriptures actually declare that there is no longer an offering for sin, because Christ died once and for all (Romans 6:10). The author of Hebrews declares in 10:18 "Where there is forgiveness of these (sins), there is no longer offering for sin." Again in Hebrews 10:10 " We have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

I am not claiming that Christ is not present in the Eucharist. He is most certainly present in Spirit. He cannot be physically present in the Eucharist because He is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. He will come again physically at the second coming. Did not the angels say to the apostles in Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking up at he sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven."

Many people in the West today think that the word "spiritual" is synonymous with "not there." I totally disagree with them. Christ is in fact spiritually present with us during the Eucharist, even as he is present in the hearts and spirits of believers.

Worship of Images

One of the things that has bothered me about the Catholic faith since the beginning, is the reverence and worship offered to images and statues. I tried to ignore this at first, because many a catechist had likened the use of sacred images to keeping of pictures of Jesus, or family members in the home. The problem with this argument is that I don’t worship pictures of my relatives or bow down to them, or pray to them. There is a clear injunction in the second commandment in Exodus 20:4 " You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below, or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them." How can I respect the church’s teaching and maintain a clear conscience before the Lord our God? Scripture no where teaches that we are to pray to any other being other than the Lord.

Scripture and Tradition

I have no problem with tradition. Tradition must, however be subordinate to and in agreement with the Scriptures or it is not from God. As I have shown above there are a number of traditions of the RCC that are not in agreement with the Scriptures. What does the Bible say about the authority of Scripture? In 2 Timothy 3:16 St Paul writes: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be perfect, equipped for every good work." Some Catholic apologists have argued that Saint Paul was speaking about an independent, parallel, unrecorded Gospel contained in an oral tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6. The problem with this concept is that Paul tells us elsewhere in 1 Corinthians 15:3, 11 " The chief message I handed on to you, as it was handed on to me, was that Christ, as the Scriptures foretold, died for our sins…That is our preaching, mine or theirs as you will; that is the faith that has come to you." It was interesting to discover what St. Augustine had to write about Scripture and Tradition:

"From the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life." (The City of God)

" I am not bound by the authority of this epistle because I do not hold the writings of Cyprian as canonical, and I accept whatever in them agrees with the authority of the divine Scriptures with his approval, but what does not agree I reject without his permission." (Contra Cresconium)

Papacy

The RCC teaches that the Pope is the head of the entire Christian church, and as such exercises supreme authority, and is guaranteed to be free of error when teaching on faith or morals (CCC 881 through 891).

If the Pope is infallible, how can he and the Magisterium of the church teach doctrines that contradict Scripture? The foundational passage in Scripture used to justify the Pope’s position is Matthew 16:18-19: "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church…I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." If the Roman interpretation is correct then Peter did indeed have the keys. How did the early church fathers interpret this key passage?

Hilary of Poitiers (315-368 AD) "…whence I ask, was it that the blessed Simon Bar-Jonah confessed to him, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God? ...And this is the rock of the confession whereon the church was built….This faith it is which is the foundation of the church…"

Cyril of Alexandria (444 AD) "…Jesus said to the divine Peter: You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. Now by the word ‘rock’, Jesus indicated, I think, the immovable faith of the disciple."

It appears, that at least in the early church, that the rock referred to by the Lord was the faith of Peter, not Peter himself.

In 1 Peter 5:1 Peter writes: " Therefore, I exhort you the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ…" Note that Peter does not refer to himself as the supreme pontiff, rather as a fellow elder! Saint Paul rebuked Peter for his compromising of the Gospel at the Council of Jerusalem. This is recorded in Galatians 2:11-14 and Acts 15. It is worth noting that after Paul’s rebuke that Peter actually repented and changed his position. Where is infallibility in this?

Just for the record there was a Pope who was branded as a heretic. Pope Honorius (625-638 AD) was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical council for supporting monotheletism. Pope Liberius (352-356) signed an Arian confession and denounced Athanasius in order to maintain his See against pressure from the Emperor Constantius II. Pope Zosimus (417-418) rebuked Augustine and the North African church for their condemnation of Pelagius and his heretical teachings. The North African church subsequently rejected the directions and admonitions of Zosimus.

Apparently the church has not always believed what Rome requires that we believe today.

As I review all these findings I find myself squarely in the position of the Reformed church. How surprising! I thought it would turn out the other way. By God’s grace I am headed back to the faith of my fathers after all.

In the Service of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Robert W. Mayberry

Note: In the parish priest's response to my letter he did not comment on any of the doctrinal issues that I raised.



TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; apologetics; buhbye; christianity; conversion; cya; excatholic; revisionist
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1 posted on 06/01/2007 2:28:45 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock

Have fun in the wilderness. Buh-bye.

P.S. We’ll still be here when you come back.


2 posted on 06/01/2007 2:30:22 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

Ping


3 posted on 06/01/2007 2:31:04 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Petronski

Thanks for you typically insightful rebuttal.


4 posted on 06/01/2007 2:33:22 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Petronski
have reviewed the church’s teaching on Mary, as Co-Mediatrix, her perpetual virginity, Immaculate conception, and being enthroned as Queen of Heaven. These doctrines are not in agreement with scripture or the teachings of the early fathers of the church. Saint Paul writes in his letter to Timothy (1 Tim 2:5) "there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." It was interesting to discover that none of the early church fathers in the first three hundred years of the church ever wrote about Mary as a Co-Mediator. If there is only one mediator as God’s Word says, how can there be a co-mediator? This is a blatant contradiction.

Co-Mediatrix? I've never heard of that. I did a Google search, and it comes up some obscure websites. It sounds like the combined Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix, neither of which are dogma like the Immaculate Conception of the Assumption.

5 posted on 06/01/2007 2:33:37 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Gamecock

Most Catholics that leave just leave and do not look for public recognition or to make a buck.That includes many that like this writer had been active in the church and were a public part of its face to the world.

So it is nice to read when God opens the eyes and the heart to the word of God and the truth of Christ.


6 posted on 06/01/2007 2:34:45 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Petronski

It looks like he bought their talking points hook, line, and sinker.


7 posted on 06/01/2007 2:35:08 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Petronski; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
Have fun in the wilderness. Buh-bye.

We like it here just fine in the wilderness. Hey, if it was good enough for John the Baptist, it's good enough for anyone.

The Wilderness has been turned into the city on a hill (Geneva). Just pisses you off, doesn't it?

Come join us, or deal with it.

8 posted on 06/01/2007 2:36:11 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: Gamecock
Thanks for you typically insightful rebuttal.

I dumbed it down to the level of discourse already at hand.

9 posted on 06/01/2007 2:36:28 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: ears_to_hear
So it is nice to read when God opens the eyes and the heart to the word of God and the truth of Christ.

Yeah, like the people featured on EWTN's The Journey Home.

10 posted on 06/01/2007 2:36:37 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480

Take out the hyphen, tons of hits.


11 posted on 06/01/2007 2:36:51 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Just pisses you off, doesn't it?

Quite the opposite. Have yourself a field day.

12 posted on 06/01/2007 2:37:50 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Hey, if it was good enough for John the Baptist, it's good enough for anyone.

John the Baptist would be more at home with someone like St. John Fisher, who defended the sanctity of marriage against the whims of Henry VIII.

13 posted on 06/01/2007 2:38:04 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Petronski
Ahh, the seagull method of refuting a post: swoop in, make some unintelligible noise, create a mess and then fly away.


14 posted on 06/01/2007 2:40:55 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Gamecock

I was not attempting to refute anything, and if you find those few short words unintelligible, I cannot help you. I don’t do remedial reading.


15 posted on 06/01/2007 2:42:05 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Pyro7480
John the Baptist would be more at home with someone like St. John Fisher, who defended the sanctity of marriage against the whims of Henry VIII.

How about Luther ? He was driven off and chased and desired dead.

Personaly I do not defend Henry VIII , but I have a God who shows mercy to whom He will show mercy, so Henry might just be a Saint

16 posted on 06/01/2007 2:42:18 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Gamecock
If there is only one mediator as God’s Word says, how can there be a co-mediator? This is a blatant contradiction.

No, actually it's an appalling ignorance of Scripture on the part of the writer.

Will he tell people in his new congregation who ask for his prayers that "God's word says there is only one mediator"?

Of course, consistency and logic isn't a strong point of his new creed, sarting with the blatantly contradictory man-made doctrine of "sola scriptura". Maybe the obvious contradiction will just go over everyone's heads.

17 posted on 06/01/2007 2:42:56 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Gamecock

Welcome to the Evangelical Church - e.g., the Reformed branch. I will refrain from throwing stones at critics who still believe the RCC is the only true church. But, then again, the LDS believes the same thing...and the Muslims think they are the only true adherents to God’s work on Earth.


18 posted on 06/01/2007 2:44:08 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Petronski
Quite the opposite. Have yourself a field day.

Thanks for your concern for my well-being (that's not sarcasm). i'm quite happy with my life and faith, thank you.

19 posted on 06/01/2007 2:44:37 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: Gamecock

Channeling Martin Luther? Has email replaced nailing things to the church door?


20 posted on 06/01/2007 2:44:48 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Fred Thompson in 2008 - there is no doubt about it! [GWB has jumped the duck])
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To: Petronski
Following is my resignation letter from the Roman Catholic Church and from my position as Director of the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA)

You have to admit, it's a fine thing to root one more anti-Catholic out of the ranks of RCIA directors and facilitators.

One down, tens of thousands to go.

No offense intended to the orthodox and faithful people involved in RCIA ... God bless them.

21 posted on 06/01/2007 2:44:52 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ears_to_hear
How about Luther? He was driven off and chased and desired dead.

Kinda like what he wrote about Jews here.

22 posted on 06/01/2007 2:45:17 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Pyro7480; Calvinist_Dark_Lord

Henry VIII???

If Henry VIII was a Reformer Benny Hinn is the next pope.

BTW, how how many Popes had children? I assume John The Baptist would wink at that?


23 posted on 06/01/2007 2:45:24 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Pyro7480

The Roman Church calls her “Co-Mediatrix” because that she agreed to be part of God’s plan to bring His Son into the world, that she by doing so takes part in Jesus’ redemptive works. Also because she is in Heaven interceding for people on their behalf.


24 posted on 06/01/2007 2:45:32 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Campion

You are definitely a “glass half full” kind of person. I like that.


25 posted on 06/01/2007 2:45:52 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Pyro7480

The thing about Tiber swimmers is that most I know or have heard on EWTN don’t come to Catholicism bitter about their old association.


26 posted on 06/01/2007 2:46:23 PM PDT by tiki
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
I'm quite happy with my life and faith, thank you.

Great. (Also not sarcasm.)

27 posted on 06/01/2007 2:46:47 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: LiteKeeper; Gamecock
I will refrain from throwing stones at critics who still believe the RCC is the only true church. But, then again, the LDS believes the same thing...and the Muslims think they are the only true adherents to God’s work on Earth.

That's a form of the ad hominem fallacy. Something does not become false simply because the LDS believe it.

For example, the Book of Mormon talks about "a great and abominable church of Satan," which subsequent Mormon interpreters have explicitly identified as the Catholic Church.

So there's an example where the LDS agree with John Calvin.

28 posted on 06/01/2007 2:47:34 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Petronski

Your attitude will really bring people back to the church. Nice job. /sarc


29 posted on 06/01/2007 2:47:35 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Secret Agent Man

You’re welcome. /sarc


30 posted on 06/01/2007 2:48:25 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Secret Agent Man

I’m Catholic, and I’ve never seen the term “Co-Mediatrix.” I’ve seen “Mediatrix” and “Co-Redemptrix.”


31 posted on 06/01/2007 2:50:03 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Petronski
Kinda like what he wrote about Jews here.

Diversion will not work.

The Catholic church chased him and wanted him dead. Then it went about murdering those that taught a gospel message .

A murderous church with human control at its core wanted the poor monk dead, and not because of his political positions, but because he challenged their superstition and false doctrine

32 posted on 06/01/2007 2:50:23 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: LiteKeeper

So, I guess there isn’t one truth in your opinion then?


33 posted on 06/01/2007 2:51:00 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Is that why they call her a co redeemer too?

It is simple idolatry


34 posted on 06/01/2007 2:51:49 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear

The Catholic Church AND the secular Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and his lords. Luther was lucky to have one good friend higher up.


35 posted on 06/01/2007 2:52:03 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: ears_to_hear

Yes.


36 posted on 06/01/2007 2:52:32 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: tiki

What is “bitter” about this mans testimony?


37 posted on 06/01/2007 2:52:42 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear

It’s your story and you are free to tell it however you wish. I completely understand you want to ignore the treatment Luther prescribed to those who didn’t believe as he did.

That WAS your point, wasn’t it?


38 posted on 06/01/2007 2:52:47 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: ears_to_hear

You’re a walking Jack Chick comic book.


39 posted on 06/01/2007 2:52:48 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: ears_to_hear
The Catholic church chased him and wanted him dead. Then it went about murdering those that taught a gospel message .

What do you call the hundreds of priests and Catholic faithful killed by the English under Elizabeth I and James I?

Self-defense?

40 posted on 06/01/2007 2:53:35 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Pyro7480

Is she co redeemer to YOU


41 posted on 06/01/2007 2:54:20 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Campion
What do you call the hundreds of priests and Catholic faithful killed by the English under Elizabeth I and James I? Self-defense?

Perhaps they were Irish?

42 posted on 06/01/2007 2:55:24 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Secret Agent Man

It was by order of Rome, I think you know that.

Indeed he had one friend in a high place that cared and protected him


43 posted on 06/01/2007 2:55:55 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Petronski

Most of them were just as English as their tormentors.


44 posted on 06/01/2007 2:56:23 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Petronski

Luther was just as hard in his criticism of his fellow Germans who didn’t believe. Easy to overlook the entire context of his criticisms.

I don’t think you want to start pointing fingers at other religions and how they have treated the Jews. The Catholic church was horrible to the Jews for a lot longer than any other christian church body.


45 posted on 06/01/2007 2:56:27 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Campion

Well, I only meant to point out that, when the Brits want to kill someone, “Irish” seems to be the fallback reason.


46 posted on 06/01/2007 2:57:52 PM PDT by Petronski (BLAME AMERICA! (L. Ron Paul does, & his creepy stalking fans can't STAND to hear it!))
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To: Petronski

It is simply irrelevant, to the topic, you could start a thread explaining why the majority of the SS and Hitler were Catholics and your church never excommunicated them.

We can discuss Luther there


47 posted on 06/01/2007 2:58:04 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Gamecock

Good for you. Leaving the dark side is so liberating. I can’t imagine ever wanting to go back to the Catholic church. Not now, not ever.


48 posted on 06/01/2007 2:58:07 PM PDT by AlaskaErik (Run, Fred run! I will send my donation as soon as you announce.)
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To: Gamecock

This website and the others like them are nothing but teachers of hate against Catholics. There are many lost sheep, but occasionaly we find them and bring them home, as shown on the “The Journey Home”. The next shows are as listed: There is no hate on “The Journey Home”.
Jun 4
Bruce Sullivan
Former Church of Christ minister
Jun 25
Dean Lanton
Former Southern Baptist minister


49 posted on 06/01/2007 2:58:27 PM PDT by cheme
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To: ears_to_hear; Andrew Byler
No, I don't believe in the title of co-redemptrix for her, nor is it Church teaching. FReeper andrew byler sums it best here.
50 posted on 06/01/2007 2:58:44 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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