Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[BibChr]

Yes; at least in Paul, unqualified “God” refers to the Father, and unqualified “Lord” refers to Jesus — while obviously not denying that the Father is Lord, nor that Jesus is God.

“Mother of God” is, at best, not a Biblically useful expression, and is not a Biblically used expression. Mary was not mother to the divine nature of Christ. If one’s concern is to exalt Jesus, as the Bible does, he’ll have no need of it. If his concern is to exalt Mary, as the Bible doesn’t, the Bible is expendable anyway.

[ladyinred]

Cheap shot...and one that requires a response of, "protestant 'preachers' are equally guilty, just disconnected and therefore more difficult to tabulate."

Sorry to say that is so true.

[ears_to_hear]

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." -- Matthew 28:19-20

Notice he did not say all the things I have taught you and that I will instruct you in after my death.

Jesus made it clear that he had taught them all they needed to know to pass on to make disciples

[ears_to_hear]

Amen

[ears_to_hear]

The unregenerate always resist the HS, you know that

[ears_to_hear]

Are they less honored by God than the priests that molested children in their charge?
Cheap shot...and one that requires a response of, "protestant 'preachers' are equally guilty, just disconnected and therefore more difficult to tabulate."

All men are sinners, but Protestants have had much less of it and they have dealt with it openly without compromise.

Mine was no more of a cheap shot than the one taken at Protestant evangelists. When you dis it out expect to get it back ok?

You may all the rosaries for me you wish, God does not hear them anyway and so they are spiritually neutral

[xzins]

Thanks, BC.

I’ll remember this next time MoG comes up.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Funny, if the HS only goes to the elect few, the "Church Fathers", why such a harsh rebuke in Acts?

7:51 -- Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

AMEN.

It wasn't until I joined this forum that I heard RCs saying Christ spoke only to the Apostles; instructed only the Apostles; and blessed only the Apostles, and thus our only hope was to get our butts to the guys who now postured themselves to be 21st century apostles and get some of what they were doling out.

However, as you say, the Gospel is free and available to all those with ears to hear and eyes to see and a heart circumcised by His word.

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." -- Colossians 2:8-15

We are "complete in Him," and "every trespass has been forgiven" and "nailed to the cross."

Solus Christus. Sola gratia.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You may all the rosaries for me you wish, God does not hear them anyway and so they are spiritually neutral

I'm not sure "neutral" is the right word. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God of creation. And whether we obey or not, there are consequences.

"Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them...

He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children...

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD." -- Psalms 115:1-8;13-14;17-18

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Hi, ladyinred. Hope you’re feeling better. Christ is strength.

[markomalley]

Because of threads like this one, spreading error

OK, and I think you (all) did a wonderful job of that about 800 posts ago. So why keep on it?

You all are sola scriptura types, right? The Bible is your sole rule of faith and practice, right?

Well, why don't you start acting in accordance with the Holy Word of God, then?

Because the witness you are giving them poor Cat-lick heathen heretick apostates sure ain't gettin' the job done.

The best way to witness to the scriptures is to act according to them. Those who don't act according to them are heretics. And the way you keep on makes you just that.

NOT Bible believers. Yes, your actions, your posting habits, make you out to be heretics...teaching, through your actions, a way that is directly contradicted by the scriptures.

Bible believers!!! Hah!

And, by the way, I will be happy to provide you chapter and verse if you, as a educated Bible believer, don't know it already in your conscience.

[1000 silverlings]

Please point out my posts which cause distress, thanks

[markomalley]

I do not have time to go through all of them. Your post 1128 implies that we Catholics are reprobate in our heresy. One example.

Are you going to start acting scripturally now? Please? Or are you going to keep on in your own heresy...

[1000 silverlings]

Post 1128 repeats what Christ said in 2 biblical passages. Paul tells us to preach the Word. None of the words or the view expressed is my own, but is instead God’s and He wishes for people to hear it. I am merely doing what the two commanded.

[markomalley]

I am merely doing what the two commanded.

You are acting in error. You are acting contrary to the Holy Scriptures. You are acting opposite of what is directly commanded in multiple places in scripture.

Actions reflect beliefs. Beliefs contrary to scripture are heresy.

You do the math.

[1000 silverlings]

Please post the scriptures, thanks

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Gal. 4:16

"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." -- Acts 4:29-31

[1000 silverlings]

James 5:19

5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

"1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

2 Timothy 4:2 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

If we don't warn someone in error to turn from evil, we are partly responsible. "Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.; Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers;

[P-Marlowe]

Looks like the vain repetitious spam has stopped.